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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 11:20 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:16 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 11:01 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:47 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:37 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast. Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument. Stalkers deal with both those units fabulously. When zerg go straight spire route against this, it is such a heavy investment that the zerg really needs to be quite far ahead economically. If the protoss is properly scouting and sees the zerg getting too greedy, i guarantee you he will just push out with the 2 colossus and 2 rounds of stalkers and straight up just kill you. The build itself is what they are arguing is overpowered. It is extremely flexible and scouting is basically guaranteed with it. I just don't see mutas as a great option against an opponent with good scouting cause a timing push will just kill you (the build does start with gateways - > colossus - > void rays) Just seems like you have an endless list of units that are suddenly good vs that.. Zerglings are good vs Stalkers too.. whats your point? I doubt he will have alot of stalker if he has collosus voidray, equally, i doubt he will have alot of collosus voidray if he has alot of stalker... maybe you should think of it as the zerg adapting instead of the protoss adapting. Zerg isn't stuck in its build order just like Protoss isn't either. If anything, the zerg are the most adaptable race out of all the races. You can't just say "oh well... you can't build spire units, stalker just rape them" LOL does that mean you are just never going to get a muta or corruptor since "stalkers rape them"? Maybe you should just play toss. okay. Protoss goes Robo and gets an observer out. He scouts and sees a spire and no roaches/stalkers (just ling-muta-bling). I guarantee you a GOOD protoss will do the following and forgo the stargates. Throw down additional gateways and go for colossus and crush. Mutalisks and corruptors are so gas intensive you can't support them in mass with roaches and hydras before 3-4 base. Go watch 25:45 of the video. I'm pretty sure IdrA knows what he's talking about. okay you obviously didn't even watch the match.. i'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about, neither does idra or artosis for that matter. have fun with the group-think though.
So you are basing all your evidence against 1 match? I think i'll trust IdrA and Artosis over you since they take the time to try everything they can with the help of other Pro-Gamers to try and beat 1 specific build.
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Why not put all episodes in same thread?
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Mod Edit: image meme edited out
but seriously like they said in the 2nd show
"not for those with over inflated egos"
You have to look at this from their view
Artosis+Idra have been playing alot longer than 90% of people who have posted on this thread
theyve seen alot more than you have, its their career to play video games.
just because "oh I am 3k masters you can do this, how dare they say this is imba"
and to be honest balance only does matter at the top GSL/MLG/IEM pro level and if you are not at that level you really cant say who is right who is wrong(you can give your opinion ofcourse)
Yes you can have your opinion
yes you can say it
but if youre going to "Im right, your wrong" is being a little one dimensional(especially if your not pro level)
if you dont like it,dont watch the shows, im pretty sure you were not forced.
if your zerg or protoss and are like "well ive won/loss this matchup doing this this this, so they are wrong"
I want you to play this matchup over 50 times(more better) against different players, because if youre right then you should be able to beat with a good win% right?
If you dont play for SC2 for a career, please dont say you are right
also dont theorycraft without the testing it(eg: oh mass curropter can beat this)
these people most likely put more time into the game than you do
my 2 cents
~cheers
PS if you wondering who am I?
Im nobody just like you
thats just my opinion.
User was warned for this post
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I feel like Corruptor + Mass speedling is a really solid answer to Collusus/Void. If you watch Dimaga v WhiteRa from the Go4SC2 last weekend you can see Dimaga wipe the floor with WhiteRa using mass upgraded corruptors. I mean they do any amazing job against collussus & voids allowing mass speedlings to easily clean up the small ground force of gateway units that exist.
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i will add one more thing :
i think banglings are imba agenst mecha (i try mech build agenst zergs) build...
problem is they are to easy to made and to easy conter everything terran have on graund..
i agree that banglings should conter easy light unites but they are conter mecha unites as well..
problem is i cant made mecha unites that fast as zerg can made beglings.. i can made bio unites..
but mecha i cant... i have problem with banglings when i try play mecha terra agenst zergs...
thx 
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Really surprised that they didn't even mention Mutas in this episode... Not only are Mutas good vs both Colossi and Void Rays, but since they'll be dumping all their gas into both those units and upgrades, they won't have many, if any Stalkers around. Sure the Toss can Cannon up his Mineral line to dump minerals but chances are he'll have plenty of Pylons / production buildings vulnerable for harassing.
Also, if you're going Colossus Void Ray on 2 Stargates then you don't also have 6 Gates as Idra implied, you have maybe 3-4 and there is still a cooldown to warping in meaning they can't just bust out a bunch of Stalkers on a whim. Not to mention the gas limitations.
The other thing with this build is map control, or the lack thereof. Like they said, you need to turtle on 2 bases. Since you're dumping all your gas into Colossi / VRs / Upgrades, you're not going to have a great many sentries, if any. That means any time you move out before hitting that big critical mass you're going to get owned by the Zerg army. So if the Zerg just mass expands all over the place while he has that complete map dominance (it takes a bit of time to reach that huge deathball size), he should have a boat load of larva and just instantly replenish his army 4 times over.
Lastly, and most importantly, the GSTL game where YoungHwa used this build vs Kyrix is a week old. ONE WEEK. During the game, Artosis was saying how his strat wouldn't work because you can't support that on two bases. So clearly he didn't know about it then. Since, he says he's been using that build on ladder. OK. I think it takes more than 1 week for a trend like this to be properly studied, and countered. I think the fact that they're already throwing their hands up and saying "Imba, buff Zerg" is a little bit ridiculous.
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On February 16 2011 11:21 Mutarisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:20 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 11:16 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 11:01 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:47 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:37 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast. Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument. Stalkers deal with both those units fabulously. When zerg go straight spire route against this, it is such a heavy investment that the zerg really needs to be quite far ahead economically. If the protoss is properly scouting and sees the zerg getting too greedy, i guarantee you he will just push out with the 2 colossus and 2 rounds of stalkers and straight up just kill you. The build itself is what they are arguing is overpowered. It is extremely flexible and scouting is basically guaranteed with it. I just don't see mutas as a great option against an opponent with good scouting cause a timing push will just kill you (the build does start with gateways - > colossus - > void rays) Just seems like you have an endless list of units that are suddenly good vs that.. Zerglings are good vs Stalkers too.. whats your point? I doubt he will have alot of stalker if he has collosus voidray, equally, i doubt he will have alot of collosus voidray if he has alot of stalker... maybe you should think of it as the zerg adapting instead of the protoss adapting. Zerg isn't stuck in its build order just like Protoss isn't either. If anything, the zerg are the most adaptable race out of all the races. You can't just say "oh well... you can't build spire units, stalker just rape them" LOL does that mean you are just never going to get a muta or corruptor since "stalkers rape them"? Maybe you should just play toss. okay. Protoss goes Robo and gets an observer out. He scouts and sees a spire and no roaches/stalkers (just ling-muta-bling). I guarantee you a GOOD protoss will do the following and forgo the stargates. Throw down additional gateways and go for colossus and crush. Mutalisks and corruptors are so gas intensive you can't support them in mass with roaches and hydras before 3-4 base. Go watch 25:45 of the video. I'm pretty sure IdrA knows what he's talking about. okay you obviously didn't even watch the match.. i'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about, neither does idra or artosis for that matter. have fun with the group-think though. So you are basing all your evidence against 1 match? I think i'll trust IdrA and Artosis over you since they take the time to try everything they can with the help of other Pro-Gamers to try and beat 1 specific build.
actually i'm doing the exact opposite, you AND artosis AND idra are basing their shit on that one match, (watch the video) like i said, go ahead and trust away, won't bother me any.
as posted in my first post previously, they actually don't try everything. they try TWO things and cry imba/ make a flame-bait youtube video
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I don't really understand the point of this show. The balance of this game is so early that it's impossible to know. All you guys say, when you get to the "balanced/imbalanced" part of the show is "we are going to have to see how the meta game takes this."
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On February 16 2011 09:52 StarcraftMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 09:32 NearPerfection wrote:
Lol... Future episodes of imbalance! Viking Marauder imbalanced!, Carrier Archon Imbalanced!, Zealot/Sentry/Stalker Imbalanced! But one unit combo will never be on this show, Roach/Hydra...
I think u2 should go more in depth because it seems like alot of ur conclusions are based on "i feel". That's the problem. Artosis and Idra will never focus on the imbalance of Zerg unit. This show is really disappointing because of its bias.
After reading this comment I just had to respond.
There is an obvious reason why they don't focus on the imbalance of Zerg units - it's because Zerg isn't overpowered, it's underpowered. These two know the game in and out, and they can clearly tell that Protoss and Terran are significantly more powerful than Zerg right now. It honestly isn't because they're balanced, because these two aren't dishonest people. Idra is one of the most honest people I could think of, when on earth does he say something he doesn't honestly believe? There are obvious problems in Starcraft II, and these would mostly be solved by buffing Zerg.
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On February 16 2011 11:24 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:21 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 11:20 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 11:16 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 11:01 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:47 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:37 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast. Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument. Stalkers deal with both those units fabulously. When zerg go straight spire route against this, it is such a heavy investment that the zerg really needs to be quite far ahead economically. If the protoss is properly scouting and sees the zerg getting too greedy, i guarantee you he will just push out with the 2 colossus and 2 rounds of stalkers and straight up just kill you. The build itself is what they are arguing is overpowered. It is extremely flexible and scouting is basically guaranteed with it. I just don't see mutas as a great option against an opponent with good scouting cause a timing push will just kill you (the build does start with gateways - > colossus - > void rays) Just seems like you have an endless list of units that are suddenly good vs that.. Zerglings are good vs Stalkers too.. whats your point? I doubt he will have alot of stalker if he has collosus voidray, equally, i doubt he will have alot of collosus voidray if he has alot of stalker... maybe you should think of it as the zerg adapting instead of the protoss adapting. Zerg isn't stuck in its build order just like Protoss isn't either. If anything, the zerg are the most adaptable race out of all the races. You can't just say "oh well... you can't build spire units, stalker just rape them" LOL does that mean you are just never going to get a muta or corruptor since "stalkers rape them"? Maybe you should just play toss. okay. Protoss goes Robo and gets an observer out. He scouts and sees a spire and no roaches/stalkers (just ling-muta-bling). I guarantee you a GOOD protoss will do the following and forgo the stargates. Throw down additional gateways and go for colossus and crush. Mutalisks and corruptors are so gas intensive you can't support them in mass with roaches and hydras before 3-4 base. Go watch 25:45 of the video. I'm pretty sure IdrA knows what he's talking about. okay you obviously didn't even watch the match.. i'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about, neither does idra or artosis for that matter. have fun with the group-think though. So you are basing all your evidence against 1 match? I think i'll trust IdrA and Artosis over you since they take the time to try everything they can with the help of other Pro-Gamers to try and beat 1 specific build. actually i'm doing the exact opposite, you AND artosis AND idra are basing their shit on that one match, (watch the video) like i said, go ahead and trust away, won't bother me any. as posted in my first post previously, they actually don't try everything. they try TWO things and cry imba/ make a flame-bait youtube video
I have watched the video. The game they use is an 'example'. Artosis says he's undefeated with this build. IdrA plays SC2 a lot. I'm sure he's encountered this plenty of times.
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I really respect you guys but I'm going to have to disagree.
I honestly don't see this working off 2 bases. With only 4 gas geysers, a Protoss would need to wait a long time to get its deathball. Meanwhile Zerg can have 3+ saturated bases and max waayyyyyyyyyy before a Protoss gets their death ball.
Commiting to 2 Stargates and 1 Robo on top of upgrades and Stalkers is too gas heavy for 2 base. This would basically leave the Protoss defense to about a handful of sentries, which would not be enough time to stall for anything that would make a difference.
I have seen the Stalker/Sentry/Void Ray/Colo ball off like 3/4 bases and agree that composition is too strong right now. But 2 base Colo/Void Ray just doesn't doesn't seem very believable.
However, Artosis you said it is possible somehow to make this death ball off 2 bases. Can you please post a replay of this vs a competent Zerg?
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Solution is simple.
P goes collo + vr. Z goes muta.
Z goes muta. P goes phoenix + stalker
P goes phoenix + stalker. Z goes lings + hydra
Z goes ling + hydra. P goes collo + vr (or w/e)
Keeps going round and round. SC2 is a reactionary game. There is no single strategy that will 'own everything'.
Honestly, i stopped watching after 10 mins, got way too repetitive. I admit, first and second episodes were respectable.
With everything aside. I do feel collo deserves a slightly longer build time. I am comparing between 3 units, immortal, void ray and carrier for this balance thought.
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On February 16 2011 11:27 Mutarisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:24 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 11:21 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 11:20 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 11:16 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 11:01 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:47 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:37 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:
[quote]
yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast. Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument. Stalkers deal with both those units fabulously. When zerg go straight spire route against this, it is such a heavy investment that the zerg really needs to be quite far ahead economically. If the protoss is properly scouting and sees the zerg getting too greedy, i guarantee you he will just push out with the 2 colossus and 2 rounds of stalkers and straight up just kill you. The build itself is what they are arguing is overpowered. It is extremely flexible and scouting is basically guaranteed with it. I just don't see mutas as a great option against an opponent with good scouting cause a timing push will just kill you (the build does start with gateways - > colossus - > void rays) Just seems like you have an endless list of units that are suddenly good vs that.. Zerglings are good vs Stalkers too.. whats your point? I doubt he will have alot of stalker if he has collosus voidray, equally, i doubt he will have alot of collosus voidray if he has alot of stalker... maybe you should think of it as the zerg adapting instead of the protoss adapting. Zerg isn't stuck in its build order just like Protoss isn't either. If anything, the zerg are the most adaptable race out of all the races. You can't just say "oh well... you can't build spire units, stalker just rape them" LOL does that mean you are just never going to get a muta or corruptor since "stalkers rape them"? Maybe you should just play toss. okay. Protoss goes Robo and gets an observer out. He scouts and sees a spire and no roaches/stalkers (just ling-muta-bling). I guarantee you a GOOD protoss will do the following and forgo the stargates. Throw down additional gateways and go for colossus and crush. Mutalisks and corruptors are so gas intensive you can't support them in mass with roaches and hydras before 3-4 base. Go watch 25:45 of the video. I'm pretty sure IdrA knows what he's talking about. okay you obviously didn't even watch the match.. i'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about, neither does idra or artosis for that matter. have fun with the group-think though. So you are basing all your evidence against 1 match? I think i'll trust IdrA and Artosis over you since they take the time to try everything they can with the help of other Pro-Gamers to try and beat 1 specific build. actually i'm doing the exact opposite, you AND artosis AND idra are basing their shit on that one match, (watch the video) like i said, go ahead and trust away, won't bother me any. as posted in my first post previously, they actually don't try everything. they try TWO things and cry imba/ make a flame-bait youtube video I have watched the video. The game they use is an 'example'. Artosis says he's undefeated with this build. IdrA plays SC2 a lot. I'm sure he's encountered this plenty of times.
For the record, I'd just like to say I'm undefeated playing zerg too. Yup
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On February 16 2011 11:29 Zariel wrote:
Solution is simple.
P goes collo + vr. Z goes muta.
Z goes muta. P goes phoenix + stalker
P goes phoenix + stalker. Z goes lings + hydra
Z goes ling + hydra. P goes collo + vr (or w/e)
Keeps going round and round. SC2 is a reactionary game. There is no single strategy that will 'own everything'.
Honestly, i stopped watching after 10 mins, got way too repetitive. I admit, first and second episodes were respectable.
With everything aside. I do feel collo deserves a slightly longer build time. I am comparing between 3 units, immortal, void ray and carrier for this balance thought.
show didnt start till 15ish mins in...
that was just the answers to questions
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Kennigit you can maybe get artosis to paste the old videos in this thread, and tell him to start updating this one each week? :D
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On February 16 2011 11:26 ProfessorCold wrote:
There are obvious problems in Starcraft II, and these would mostly be solved by buffing Zerg.
Anyone else find this statement hilarious? Especially coming from a drone icon.
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i dont understand why everyone is going corrupters. corrupters are hard countered by void rays. void rays is an actual counter to corrupters. So why not open into mutalisks and then go corrupters when protoss starts responding with pheonix, then infestor later on....
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On February 16 2011 11:28 K3Nyy wrote:
Commiting to 2 Stargates and 1 Robo on top of upgrades and Stalkers is too gas heavy for 2 base. This would basically leave the Protoss defense to about a handful of sentries, which would not be enough time to stall for anything that would make a difference.
You have no money for upgrades. At least, I didn't when I tried. I got Extended Thermal Lances ASAP and then I pretty much had no money until ~170 / 180 supply. I mean, minerals WILL get high near the end of each production cycle. I saw 500 minerals pretty darn often. But then I'd be able to spend it instantly when both VR and the Collossus finished.
I don't see how you tech switch safely out of this. However, taking my 3rd and 4th gas quickly, I did have some of it leftover. I was always low on minerals, had to get some sentries to keep constant production out of two warpgates.
Then again, take that with a grain of salt. I'm by no mean a great player.
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On February 16 2011 11:42 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:26 ProfessorCold wrote:
There are obvious problems in Starcraft II, and these would mostly be solved by buffing Zerg. Anyone else find this statement hilarious? Especially coming from a drone icon.
Well if these problems are so "obvious", then maybe ProfessorCold can actually list them all and write them down. That would definitely clear up the debate and make the discussion broader and more insightful. Cause at the moment we're kind of stuck.
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People say ling muta, I don't see why queen muta would be a perfectly viable strategy instead, to this I think 2 spires with constant upgrades will force them into doing only like mass stalker. Can't see any other response than muta, all of us who played 3v3-4v4 knows that corruptors arn't the answer when you have many void rays in the mix.
Again am only a lowely master player but i really hope ppl are/have tried really mass muta and to add queens to it would be a nice addition I think.
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EPT
