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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 11:29 Zariel wrote:
Solution is simple.
P goes collo + vr. Z goes muta.
Z goes muta. P goes phoenix + stalker
P goes phoenix + stalker. Z goes lings + hydra
Z goes ling + hydra. P goes collo + vr (or w/e)
Keeps going round and round. SC2 is a reactionary game. There is no single strategy that will 'own everything'.
The problem with this that they talk about in the video, is protoss can scout with a phoenix, observers, and hallucinations, hence matching their build to the composition they find, while the VRs kept the OLs away from the deat ball to prevent full scouting in the Kyrix game.
The P has an advantage as they can constantly adjust their death ball, while Z takes longer to react until they see the unit composition and P can just roll their ball over the top in the mean time.
I am also suprised artosis didn't mention or explore muta's in any detail after he mentioned it in the kyrix game.
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Please make it a podcast  I'd love to download it to my cell phone so I can listen...
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On February 16 2011 09:36 rS.Sinatra wrote:
1) Baneling drop (as mentioned above)
2) heavy aggression to prevent a death ball
3) attacking multiple fronts (particularly on a big map) via nydus/drops/zergling speed to avoid confronting death ball...
baneling drops sounds like a good idea but Artosis did mention how he has beaten a LOT of different zerg styles doing this one build. maybe he should have listed each.
2 bases is not really spread out enough to attack aggressively or with nydus while P is building up the deathball
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On February 16 2011 11:28 K3Nyy wrote:
I really respect you guys but I'm going to have to disagree.
However, Artosis you said it is possible somehow to make this death ball off 2 bases. Can you please post a replay of this vs a competent Zerg?
This. Dear Artosis, could you please share ur replays to prove that this actually is imbalanced?
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This episode is even worse than the first two - they do not talk about cost/supply effectiveness of voidrays, they don't talk about upgrades (which are hard to integrate for both VRs and colossi from two base), they even claim protoss to be more reactive than zerg.
The VR, Colossi combination pretty much exists for at least four months here in europe, and reactive zerg have learned to deal with it (mass corrupter with upgrades and transition into anything else afterwards).
I admit it is the most solid composition vs zerg. It denies scouting pretty well, is pretty save vs roach allins and pretty strong maxed out - but thats only because of the low supply of VRs. Why don't they adress such things? Why are they doing some trashtalk about how they feel about it instead of discussing facts?
While sitting on two bases maxing out, i fly with phoenix, observer or haluzination over the 3+ bases of the zerg, see roachwarren, hydraden, spire, some corrupters, some roaches and hydras, a lot of larvae and say to myself - oh - i know what he is doing and now with my very reactive race i just cb my three gateways and switch from VR into mass stalker - if he sees my stalkers he won't be able to just build more roaches or hydras or broodlords ... SURE!
This is total bullshit in three points .. are artosis and idra playing a different game or what?
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Is there a reason why Artosis and Idra purposefully neglected to bring up the mutalisk solution? That's all I kept thinking when they discussed the problem, but neither Artosis or Idra brought up massing mutalisk.
Mutas kill void rays better. If they switch to phoenix, then you go back to corruptors, but the discussion was about void ray + colossus (not phoenix + colossus).
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On February 16 2011 11:48 Yttrasil wrote:
People say ling muta, I don't see why queen muta would be a perfectly viable strategy instead, to this I think 2 spires with constant upgrades will force them into doing only like mass stalker. Can't see any other response than muta, all of us who played 3v3-4v4 knows that corruptors arn't the answer when you have many void rays in the mix.
Again am only a lowely master player but i really hope ppl are/have tried really mass muta and to add queens to it would be a nice addition I think.
I like that thinking. Lings are usually added just to use up the excess minerals, and because they are decent at cleaning up left-over gateway units. But spending some of the extra minerals on queens might be a very good move in this situation, especially as we've had top players demonstrate how effective transfuse can be with mutas.
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Why not just make a new thread every time this show is made and lock the old thread? I really don't want to wade through hundreds f pages to find when the new topic actually begins.
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idra/artosis how come you guys didnt dicuss the strategy of delaying or denying a protoss natural expansion before coming to the conclusion that the strategy is imbalanced?
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Granted my opinion is not of the highest level, but I see that others have pointed it out in this topic -- wouldn't mass mutas (or just larger amount of mutas) destroy this? In slightly lower level play (masters, diamond) I see mutas kill this type of play a lot.
First off, against Mutas, you concede any type of map control with this build. Your army has to stay together to be effective, are weak against multi-pronged or quick harass, will suffer heavy losses if you get flanked / surrounded, and you'll be low on stalkers and sentries (which are vital against mass Mutas because of GS). Voidrays do very poorly against Mutas because they naturally clump and don't receive any bonuses against them, Stalkers are already pretty bad against Mutas and are flat out terrible against larger Muta numbers, and without enough GS, the Mutas bounce scales really well with numbers. Add in roach/ling/baneling/infestor or ultimately Broods for support and I don't see how the Protoss has an "imbalanced" advantage.
Ideally, if you see a zerg going with such heavy Muta play, you transition into HT because they destroy countless amounts of lings (the common complement to the gas guzzling Mutas), soften and repel Mutas quickly with storm, and are the natural next step if you don't go phoenix and choose to go blink stalkers instead. You aren't going Colossi / Voidray / HT all-in off 2-bases. In fact, you probably aren't going Colossi + HT off any less than 3 bases since HT are more gas intensive than Voids.
Yes, 6-gate +1 builds are pretty much timed to crush Muta play but if they're going 3-gate expand into 6-gate +1 timing push, you aren't doing a 2-base deathball all in. You're gas starved with delayed tech early because you expand largely behind a high sentry count. You kind of need a third to transition into (Z)IST or Colossi / Void.
Then they mentioned Zelniq's Ultra / Ling / Queen build and then just kind of swept it off stage with a half-assed reason. They talk a lot about how the Protoss adjusts based on scouting... and never mention that the Zerg should do the same.
Countless times, they say "if the Protoss player scouts this, they only need to do this" and never say the same for the opposite side. They do mention that scouting is easier for Protoss and that's true, but then say that Zerg scouting is not possible because of Voidrays. They removed the Voidray speed upgrade. Speed upgraded Overseers are faster than Voids will ever be. Yes, I agree that Zerg scouting needs some help -- Terran scouting was already good, Protoss scouting got some help, and it feels like Zerg scouting needs some love -- but it's not like adjustments against a 2-base all-in are hard to make. You scout the front see Colossi but not mass Colossi, a lower Stalker / Sentry count, no third base, and if you suicide scout an Overseer and see a stargate making voidrays (since what the stargate is making conveniently shows up in the building model)... hmmm... I wonder what it could be. If you scout them halting ground production in favor of a more voidray heavy army, why not appropriately cut your own ground production in favor of more Corruptors / Queens? Sure, Voidrays do well against them but not with Queen support. Voidrays aren't a burst damage unit and Corruptors have a large enough HP pool that transfuse works efficiently on them. Then, it's just an issue of unit balance -- something they said made the Colossi perfectly fine in TvP -- strange how it doesn't make Colossi / Void fine here. Maybe a minor tweak like changing the Corruptor bonus to vs. Armored is needed but not any major buff.
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I think the whole point they are trying to make about the problem with the counter to the counter is that even if the Zerg gets his early scout and knows this is coming, there is a fragile balance that must take place to come close to dealing with this mix of Protoss units.
If you blindly go heavy on Corruptors, which their observer will easily see, they just cut Collosus production and go stalkers and you eventually lose due to the DPS and cost effectiveness of their army vs your army that can only shoot air and is weak vs ground all together.
As long as SC2 has been out Zerg has been the reactionary race that defended until they had to attack. A 2 base Protoss can easily keep his death-ball together long enough to mass this unit configuration up and react easily to what the Zerg is making.
I do think this episode came out a bit too early in the meta-game shift to properly address every build that could potentially have a better unit mix. If they have tested it as rigorously as they say, I do think the balance at the highest levels of play will be a bit more in Protoss favor against Zerg.
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I also don't like how artosis exaggerates so many of his points like he goes: "I'm proud to say that I'm basically undefeated with this strategy." Well that doesn't open up much room for discussion now does it?
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Anyone know what this guy is going on about?
'CORRUPTOR IS GETTING BUFFED. They are making it do +4 damage to armored, but removing its bonus vs massive (info from Slush that he got from dustin). Fungal Growth is going to last 4sec down from 8sec but do the same damage, and it will do MORE damage vs armored. And stim research timing is going to get increased. PLEASE thumbs this up so Artosis/Idra can see.
Healingproof'
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Interesting.. I wasn't really thinking mutalisk when I was listening, for some reason I was thinking of Infestors, since they are Zerg's spellcasters.
Why wouldn't mutas work? Collossi obviously can't hit air, and a flock of mutas would pound down the VRs right?
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On February 16 2011 11:55 JoeSchmoe wrote:
I also don't like how artosis exaggerates so many of his points like he goes: "I'm proud to say that I'm basically undefeated with this strategy." Well that doesn't open up much room for discussion now does it?
Yeah, that's kind of a dick thing to say. I highly respect Artosis, heck I think he is probably a really cool person in real life, but to bias an argument about balance with a statement like that pretty much negates any objectivity he had on that subject.
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(disclaimer: I'm only a diamond player)
I agree with their proposed solution, that corrupters be buffed. Right now, corrupters are TERRIBLE against void rays, which is funny because corrupters can only attack air while voids can attack everything.
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On February 16 2011 11:51 The.Imperator wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:28 K3Nyy wrote:
I really respect you guys but I'm going to have to disagree.
However, Artosis you said it is possible somehow to make this death ball off 2 bases. Can you please post a replay of this vs a competent Zerg? This. Dear Artosis, could you please share ur replays to prove that this actually is imbalanced?
And he did say he was "nearly" undefeated.
Which means he lost a few games. Perharps something to analyse.
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On February 16 2011 11:56 Striding Strider wrote:
Anyone know what this guy is going on about?
'CORRUPTOR IS GETTING BUFFED. They are making it do +4 damage to armored, but removing its bonus vs massive (info from Slush that he got from dustin). Fungal Growth is going to last 4sec down from 8sec but do the same damage, and it will do MORE damage vs armored. And stim research timing is going to get increased. PLEASE thumbs this up so Artosis/Idra can see.
Healingproof'
Hmmm I wonder if thats true. Would be interesting if those are legit changes that are going to happen. But would like to see it from slush though to believe it 
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On February 16 2011 11:59 ikarigendo wrote:
(disclaimer: I'm only a diamond player)
I agree with their proposed solution, that corrupters be buffed. Right now, corrupters are TERRIBLE against void rays, which is funny because corrupters can only attack air while voids can attack everything.
Sure and phoenixes can't hit ground, but mutas can hit both..
:D
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On February 16 2011 11:52 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:48 Yttrasil wrote:
People say ling muta, I don't see why queen muta would be a perfectly viable strategy instead, to this I think 2 spires with constant upgrades will force them into doing only like mass stalker. Can't see any other response than muta, all of us who played 3v3-4v4 knows that corruptors arn't the answer when you have many void rays in the mix.
Again am only a lowely master player but i really hope ppl are/have tried really mass muta and to add queens to it would be a nice addition I think. I like that thinking. Lings are usually added just to use up the excess minerals, and because they are decent at cleaning up left-over gateway units. But spending some of the extra minerals on queens might be a very good move in this situation, especially as we've had top players demonstrate how effective transfuse can be with mutas.
Thank you, never thought anyone would like my way of thinking
I'd like to add that in this case, I think a defensive kind of play is the way to go, sure a mass stalker only army will beat a mass muta army but being heavily defensive with crawlers and queen should be able to handle it if you can get it to 3-4 base. At least this will force the P into a wholly different strategy than that off Void-Colli because any less stalkers won't suffice. Then as and if all the mutas die a quick switch into roach maybe?
My only question is whether massphoenix will just be able to slaughter the mutas, in this case is it possible to add maybe a few corruptors to deal with them?
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EPT
