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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 10:40 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:35 DImported wrote:On February 16 2011 10:21 rS.Sinatra wrote:
Just finished watching YongHwa vs Kyrix.
Zerg building only 2 zerglings before he was on 3-base basically allowed Protoss to rush to the perfect unit composition, without wasting gas for sentry and stalker to hold off zergling/roach pressure.
This game is poor evidence in supporting the 'imbalance' of the collosus/void deathball. Furthermore, even though the zerg did not build units until 3-base, he was still only EVEN in drone count. Since I have played many games vs zergs in a similar situation, I have met many zergs with much better macro. And if he did make zerglings or roaches for early aggression, it's easy for the protoss to make sentries or cannons to nullify that. Then the zerg is even further behind in economy and has to work extra hard to deal with the protoss ball later on. making sentry and stalker delays collo/void ball... his macro was shit... he should have way more than 34 drone vs 34 probe off 3 base his macro should have been MUCH more ahead, given that he didnt even use zerglings or roaches to pressure. Furthermore, its much easier for a zerg to out-econ a protoss if protoss is spending all his gas on sentry and stalker instead of voidray and collosus. P can't move out with death ball as soon as he'd like to. This in turn lets his 3-base economy to kick into the late game, which is much stronger the longer it exists. The point is, if you don't want to die to a 2-base collo-voidray, build some units.
Zergs don't pull ahead of an expanding protoss until about 40 workers. Before that, protoss is able to stay on an equal harvester count. You really can't afford to spend money on units just to be aggressive and force units. If you want to be aggressive as zerg, you really have to commit and if it fails you pretty much lose anyway. It's too easy for protoss to defend. It might delay the void ray/death ball for a while but in doing so, the zerg runs behind in economy and usually ends up with units that he can't really do anything with.
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On February 16 2011 10:47 Mutarisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:37 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast. Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument. Stalkers deal with both those units fabulously. When zerg go straight spire route against this, it is such a heavy investment that the zerg really needs to be quite far ahead economically. If the protoss is properly scouting and sees the zerg getting too greedy, i guarantee you he will just push out with the 2 colossus and 2 rounds of stalkers and straight up just kill you. The build itself is what they are arguing is overpowered. It is extremely flexible and scouting is basically guaranteed with it. I just don't see mutas as a great option against an opponent with good scouting cause a timing push will just kill you (the build does start with gateways - > colossus - > void rays)
Just seems like you have an endless list of units that are suddenly good vs that.. Zerglings are good vs Stalkers too.. whats your point? I doubt he will have alot of stalker if he has collosus voidray, equally, i doubt he will have alot of collosus voidray if he has alot of stalker... maybe you should think of it as the zerg adapting instead of the protoss adapting. Zerg isn't stuck in its build order just like Protoss isn't either. If anything, the zerg are the most adaptable race out of all the races.
You can't just say "oh well... you can't build spire units, stalker just rape them" LOL does that mean you are just never going to get a muta or corruptor since "stalkers rape them"? Maybe you should just play toss.
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On February 16 2011 10:57 DNA61289 wrote:maybe in smaller numbers, but if you are going muta ling and queens then you will have more mutas then he has phoenix, the only advantage phoenix have is that they can fire on the move, and one FG will take that neutralize that.
There are two reasons this works, and it's not because muta own phoenixes - they don't. The first reason is that the phoenix is a much more specialised unit, so the protoss will almost always have fewer phoenixes than the zerg has mutas. The second reason is that as well as immobilising the phoenixes so that the mutas can fight them straight up, FG also does a considerable amount of damage, swinging the fight in the mutas favour.
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going ghost is all in? ROFL
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Reading these threads is so sad... most of these people clearly have not watched the video. For example Skyze saying it takes 4 bases when the build they are talking about is off of 2 base. Listen to the entire discussion before saying things on the forum.
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On February 16 2011 11:02 zyzski wrote:
going ghost is all in? ROFL
What they said was that an early ghost is so costly that it delays any other tech, upgrades and your marauder count as well. The whole episode was about early game, and an early ghost has to deal damage to be worth its cost since you sacrifice long-term benefits. In the midgame they are excellent support units when you can afford them.
I swear, sometimes this place really feels like Bnet forums.
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On February 16 2011 10:51 Mutarisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:51 Aerakin wrote:
Just a question, as I haven't really seen the build in question, but just how many Warp Gates can you even get with that build?
I mean, 2 Stargates continuously building Void Rays + 1 Robo continously building Colossi. Can you really have more than two gates? Maybe three at most if you go pure zealot? How the hell can switch to heavy stalkers as fast as some of you hint? 4-6
I suppose that's at max supply? Because I just tried it out, and I was starving for money on 2gates until about 180 supply (and my macro isn't perfect, so I'd get supply blocked once in a while). If you these gates early, it just seems to greatly delay the build, no?
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So, guys, do Mutalisks rape Phoenix, or is it the other way around? Let's get facts straight please. otherwise the discussion is pointless.
From what I understand in this thread, the Collosus-Void deathball destroys Zerg. So Zerg should be aggressive mid-game in order to prevent the Protoss from reaching the deathball. Problem is, you can't be aggressive without sacrificing economy because you have to commit and Protoss can easily defend.
Did I get that right?
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heretic, negativ and pure subjectiv zerg-pov show.
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On February 16 2011 11:10 Aerakin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:51 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:51 Aerakin wrote:
Just a question, as I haven't really seen the build in question, but just how many Warp Gates can you even get with that build?
I mean, 2 Stargates continuously building Void Rays + 1 Robo continously building Colossi. Can you really have more than two gates? Maybe three at most if you go pure zealot? How the hell can switch to heavy stalkers as fast as some of you hint? 4-6 I suppose that's at max supply? Because I just tried it out, and I was starving for money on 2gates until about 180 supply (and my macro isn't perfect, so I'd get supply blocked once in a while). If you these gates early, it just seems to greatly delay the build, no?
Since Mutarisk actually has no idea how Protoss is stuck in its build, units and buildings just magically appear with the thought of them. Going 2-base clearly has no meaning to him if he thinks it can support 4-6 gates with double star void collo
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Mass muta. Colossus can't shoot air. Mutas > voidray.
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On February 16 2011 11:10 Aerakin wrote:
I suppose that's at max supply? Because I just tried it out, and I was starving for money on 2gates until about 180 supply (and my macro isn't perfect, so I'd get supply blocked once in a while). If you these gates early, it just seems to greatly delay the build, no?
That's correct - if the protoss is building more than two gates, he certainly won't be producing out of them unless he tech switches or takes a third. I wouldn't worry too much about the talk of the protoss player suddenly getting a mass stalker army instead - it's pure baseless theory crafting with the usual mistake of assuming the player has infinite resources.
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On February 16 2011 11:12 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:10 Aerakin wrote:On February 16 2011 10:51 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:51 Aerakin wrote:
Just a question, as I haven't really seen the build in question, but just how many Warp Gates can you even get with that build?
I mean, 2 Stargates continuously building Void Rays + 1 Robo continously building Colossi. Can you really have more than two gates? Maybe three at most if you go pure zealot? How the hell can switch to heavy stalkers as fast as some of you hint? 4-6 I suppose that's at max supply? Because I just tried it out, and I was starving for money on 2gates until about 180 supply (and my macro isn't perfect, so I'd get supply blocked once in a while). If you these gates early, it just seems to greatly delay the build, no? Since Mutarisk actually has no idea how Protoss is stuck in its build, units and buildings just magically appear with the thought of them. Going 2-base clearly has no meaning to him if he thinks it can support 4-6 gates with double star void collo
he never said you can support 4 - 6 he said you would HAVE 4 - 6. So that if you see a tech switch by the Z, then you can respond as P.
Especially since you use early warpgates and then transition into tech units like colossus and voidrays...
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On February 16 2011 11:01 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:47 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:37 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast. Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument. Stalkers deal with both those units fabulously. When zerg go straight spire route against this, it is such a heavy investment that the zerg really needs to be quite far ahead economically. If the protoss is properly scouting and sees the zerg getting too greedy, i guarantee you he will just push out with the 2 colossus and 2 rounds of stalkers and straight up just kill you. The build itself is what they are arguing is overpowered. It is extremely flexible and scouting is basically guaranteed with it. I just don't see mutas as a great option against an opponent with good scouting cause a timing push will just kill you (the build does start with gateways - > colossus - > void rays) Just seems like you have an endless list of units that are suddenly good vs that.. Zerglings are good vs Stalkers too.. whats your point? I doubt he will have alot of stalker if he has collosus voidray, equally, i doubt he will have alot of collosus voidray if he has alot of stalker... maybe you should think of it as the zerg adapting instead of the protoss adapting. Zerg isn't stuck in its build order just like Protoss isn't either. If anything, the zerg are the most adaptable race out of all the races. You can't just say "oh well... you can't build spire units, stalker just rape them" LOL does that mean you are just never going to get a muta or corruptor since "stalkers rape them"? Maybe you should just play toss.
okay.
Protoss goes Robo and gets an observer out. He scouts and sees a spire and no roaches/stalkers (just ling-muta-bling).
I guarantee you a GOOD protoss will do the following and forgo the stargates.
Throw down additional gateways and go for colossus and crush.
Mutalisks and corruptors are so gas intensive you can't support them in mass with roaches and hydras before 3-4 base.
Go watch 25:45 of the video. I'm pretty sure IdrA knows what he's talking about.
Edit: I suggest you don't play the Counter game.
Protoss by FAR have the easiest time scouting and denying scouting.
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Yes, it's broken. A lot of the reason is because collosi/voids simply do too much damage and require next to no control to do so. A group of 5 collosi is like having reaver shots constantly going off without the lack of mobility. Void rays are just an awkward unit all together but it's simply too strong when left to sit there and attack behind a ground army.
That said, zerg has no real counter because corruptors are pretty awful and will lose to charged voids pretty fast. Another thing they didn't discuss is the problem with how the economy system works. There's no benefit for a zerg to double expand because he needs so many drones to saturate the base for an economic gain(as was mentioned in one of the threads). A protoss can stay even on economy with the zerg with an early expo for quite a while and get this deathball rolling pretty fast.
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On February 16 2011 11:10 Bagi wrote:What they said was that an early ghost is so costly that it delays any other tech, upgrades and your marauder count as well. The whole episode was about early game, and an early ghost has to deal damage to be worth its cost since you sacrifice long-term benefits. In the midgame they are excellent support units when you can afford them. I swear, sometimes this place really feels like Bnet forums.
going any tech route delays another tech for every race, saying ghost is all in is just stupid whining
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Just because he's an amazing player doesn't mean he's right.
It's not like IdrA isn't known for exaggerating things to make things seem worse than they really are.
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On February 16 2011 11:15 Insanious wrote:
he never said you can support 4 - 6 he said you would HAVE 4 - 6. So that if you see a tech switch by the Z, then you can respond as P.
Especially since you use early warpgates and then transition into tech units like colossus and voidrays...
The specific build mentioned in the video mostly skips early warpgate play in order to afford to produce both voidrays and colossi off two bases, hence the discussion about a limited number of warp gates. While the protoss player could transition into vr/colossus later in the game, it will no longer be a two-base play.
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It's strong, but not imbalanced. "I just stay on 2 base, and roflfofofflfofolololool" - Artosis. What if the zerg just takes the whole map, while you build up? Without harass Z will simply out macro you.
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On February 16 2011 11:16 Mutarisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 11:01 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:47 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:37 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast. Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument. Stalkers deal with both those units fabulously. When zerg go straight spire route against this, it is such a heavy investment that the zerg really needs to be quite far ahead economically. If the protoss is properly scouting and sees the zerg getting too greedy, i guarantee you he will just push out with the 2 colossus and 2 rounds of stalkers and straight up just kill you. The build itself is what they are arguing is overpowered. It is extremely flexible and scouting is basically guaranteed with it. I just don't see mutas as a great option against an opponent with good scouting cause a timing push will just kill you (the build does start with gateways - > colossus - > void rays) Just seems like you have an endless list of units that are suddenly good vs that.. Zerglings are good vs Stalkers too.. whats your point? I doubt he will have alot of stalker if he has collosus voidray, equally, i doubt he will have alot of collosus voidray if he has alot of stalker... maybe you should think of it as the zerg adapting instead of the protoss adapting. Zerg isn't stuck in its build order just like Protoss isn't either. If anything, the zerg are the most adaptable race out of all the races. You can't just say "oh well... you can't build spire units, stalker just rape them" LOL does that mean you are just never going to get a muta or corruptor since "stalkers rape them"? Maybe you should just play toss. okay. Protoss goes Robo and gets an observer out. He scouts and sees a spire and no roaches/stalkers (just ling-muta-bling). I guarantee you a GOOD protoss will do the following and forgo the stargates. Throw down additional gateways and go for colossus and crush. Mutalisks and corruptors are so gas intensive you can't support them in mass with roaches and hydras before 3-4 base. Go watch 25:45 of the video. I'm pretty sure IdrA knows what he's talking about.
okay you obviously didn't even watch the match.. i'm pretty sure you don't know what you're talking about, neither does idra or artosis for that matter. have fun with the group-think though.
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EPT
