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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
Just finished watching YongHwa vs Kyrix.
Zerg building only 2 zerglings before he was on 3-base basically allowed Protoss to rush to the perfect unit composition, without wasting gas for sentry and stalker to hold off zergling/roach pressure.
This game is poor evidence in supporting the 'imbalance' of the collosus/void deathball. Furthermore, even though the zerg did not build units until 3-base, he was still only EVEN in drone count. Since I have played many games vs zergs in a similar situation, I have met many zergs with much better macro.
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Immobile, gas heavy, high tech. Colossi as units are very efficient in PvZ, and possibly "imbalanced," but now it's just going too far. Mass Corruptors anyone? (and that's giving them the benefit of the doubt that you need to take on their army instead of abusing the army's immobility and etc.)
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I thought all of these episodes were supposed to be kept in one thread. Not that it's that big a deal, I suppose.
I can't watch it right now, but I'll edit in my thoughts about the episode itself once I get the chance to watch it.
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I'm just going to throw out some questions:
This strategy sounds like it takes quite a long time to get the ball to a critical mass. Why couldn't a zerg simply trade units in the mid-game to keep numbers down, similar to how Bio strategies from Terran push and trade armies a lot to try and keep colossus count down?
Why didn't they cover the viability of muta/corruptor? Mutas vs this ball theoretically sounds good, but with air armor I'm not particularly sure - even vikings counter mutas in the presence of air armor upgrades..
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I'm a fan of the show but I didn't really get this one. I've seen Collous/Void Ray, and I've played with it myself, of course not at the level where they are discussing it at - but at least I have some experience.
I listened to the whole thing, but was reading/working at the same time, did they even touch on Mutalisk as a counter? It would strike me that a trutling Toss is just asking to be vastly outexpanded, and outresourced, at which point a mass Muta ball is incredibly hard to deal with without blink stalker/high templar/etc. At least, I've never had success Void Ray vs. Muta...
I'm guessing the response is to build Phoenix if you scout mass Muta while building up your Collosus/Void.
I think the problem, if there is truly ONE IMBALANCE issue, is that Collosus do bonus/incredible damage to the most efficient/effective anti air of the Zerg (Hydra), and the other viable anti-air unit, Corrupter, just doesn't cut it against a Toss who has the luxury of adding equally/more mobile Stalkers to the mix.
Conceptually, I could see Muta's picking off Voids the same way they come in and target tanks in ZvT though...
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On February 16 2011 10:08 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 09:08 FlashtehKira wrote:
thanks Artosis,but remember PvT more imbalanced than PvZ.
phoenix+colossus more scary than void+colossus. btw.... terran has no problem with this if they react well..
The irony that most complaints about Toss stems from Collosi  .
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well,
i think that broodlords are a pretty good buff for corrupters.
so your whole argument is based on the fact, that the protoss has only to defend the two bases.
broodlords are a very good siege unit.
they will make the (as you say) few collossi busy. so all the early roach/hydra and the left over corrupters have the change to deal the needed damage. goodbye inbalanced ball.
(no need for fancy infestation or mind control - which might also give an additional edge)
and if the ball still hides behind the two bases ... see the zerg macro style take the rest of the map?
and also protoss can not switch unit composition as fast as zerg?
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Ultralisk/Broodlord is imbalanced =p
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On February 16 2011 10:25 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:08 Yamulo wrote:On February 16 2011 09:08 FlashtehKira wrote:
thanks Artosis,but remember PvT more imbalanced than PvZ.
phoenix+colossus more scary than void+colossus. btw.... terran has no problem with this if they react well.. The irony that most complaints about Toss stems from Collosi .
It's also nice that without Collossi Protoss might as well forfeit every match aside from PvP.
I honestly don't get why you felt the need to make another episode about this unit. Tiring.
On February 16 2011 10:22 Seagull_ wrote:
I'm just going to throw out some questions:
This strategy sounds like it takes quite a long time to get the ball to a critical mass. Why couldn't a zerg simply trade units in the mid-game to keep numbers down, similar to how Bio strategies from Terran push and trade armies a lot to try and keep colossus count down?
Why didn't they cover the viability of muta/corruptor? Mutas vs this ball theoretically sounds good, but with air armor I'm not particularly sure - even vikings counter mutas in the presence of air armor upgrades..
You can. White-Ra is one of the first to use this unit mix, and probably the best at executing it. Yet he got destroyed 2 times in a row by Dimaga because you know, you can counter units in sc2 and corruptors are much more easily built than Void Rays/Collossi.
But hey, I doubt they'd make a show about that.
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I'm thinking mass muta might work well vr this. Muta does very well against void ray, and if they are going zel/colsi/voidray, muta should do very well.
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Zerg needs scourge.
The bane of Zerg all can be solved with the Scourge.
Drops, Collosi, Voids, Banshees
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I'm pretty sure that if the Protoss scouts mutalisks he'll start pumping out phoenixes instead of void rays (which actually leaves more room for the Protoss to add extra stalkers with his Zealots and Colossus).
Mutalisks don't do as great vs Void Rays as you may think either.
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I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas.
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On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas.
yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something
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On February 16 2011 10:25 Woyn wrote:
Ultralisk/Broodlord is imbalanced =p
make pure void ray and laugh at the zerg 
from a terran perspective.... battlecruisers. If he can afford that army you can afford battlecruisers.
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Ah so they concluded Z must be buffed once more? I wonder what conclusion they'll reach next week.
I dislike how "TvP is probably fine lategame because the best player in the world tried something new on a non-ladder map and failed" while this collosus-corruptor build from the sound of it hasn't been popular for very long and is now labelled uncounterable. I remember artosis calling scv-marine all in unstoppable as well, but that was figured out.
I was hoping for some kind of show about the protoss deathball. Obviously the backbone of the deathball is the collosus (which has been topic of 2/3 shows now), but you just fleeted over the part TvP part by saying "yeah vikings take out collosus and bio handles gateway units really well" when in reality T's handling of deathball mostly ends up like in PvZ - corruptors/vikings surviving while entire groundforce is dead and 60 food of gateway units are ravaging your base.
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On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something
You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast.
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On February 16 2011 10:21 rS.Sinatra wrote:
Just finished watching YongHwa vs Kyrix.
Zerg building only 2 zerglings before he was on 3-base basically allowed Protoss to rush to the perfect unit composition, without wasting gas for sentry and stalker to hold off zergling/roach pressure.
This game is poor evidence in supporting the 'imbalance' of the collosus/void deathball. Furthermore, even though the zerg did not build units until 3-base, he was still only EVEN in drone count. Since I have played many games vs zergs in a similar situation, I have met many zergs with much better macro.
And if he did make zerglings or roaches for early aggression, it's easy for the protoss to make sentries or cannons to nullify that. Then the zerg is even further behind in economy and has to work extra hard to deal with the protoss ball later on.
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Loved it. Great show guys. So true and insightful. Dont listen to the bronzes saying there is a counter to it or its not so unbeatable. probably finally found something they can win with off 2 base.
I love the in-depth analysis of possible counters and debunking each of them. Truths have been spoken and this is a build that is truly only beaten IMO if you are much better than your opponent anyway and his macro was <par.
To those responding with mutas, they have many voidrays w/ a few stalkers underneath, and if they scout mutas they will just produce pheonix instead off their 2 stargates.
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EPT
