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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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SarkON
Russian Federation117 Posts
I'm really surprised that professional Zerg player like Idra didn't even consider mutas as a counter to this strategy... Or was it intentional just to emphasize how "Imbalanced" protoss is? Muta counters Colossus and VRs DIRECTLY! Add to this map control (consequtively free expansions) and constant harras on probes + lack of real counter to mutas from protoss since he won't be able to afford many stalkers with this strategy = GG. | ||
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AkobeS
Sweden25 Posts
Abit odd they dont mention mutas at all tho, since i've seen quite a few zerg players doing quite well against this with a muta switch. | ||
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:58 GGzerG wrote: EDIT : The only real thing you have to worry about when massing muta / ling / bling is them going storm / archon, and even then by the time they do this , you can just tech switch to mass roach / ultralisk then broodlord and you will almost always be fine. Unless he already has a Twilight Council (getting +2 or +3 ground ups, maybe), HT are pretty far away, I feel. Especially since Collossus + Void Ray is already gas heavy, tech switch to HT seems pretty slow and expensive. | ||
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Deadeight
United Kingdom1629 Posts
@Bias comments, they're just giving their opinions. That's what it's about. They give opinions on balance issues. Someone's bias and someone's opinion are so intertwined, so interrelated that you should just take the show for what it is. You have the option not to watch if it's not your thing. But yeah, enjoyable. Thanks Artosis & IdrA. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
On February 16 2011 10:01 legaton wrote: It's funny how they mention MvP game against squirtle as a good example of a good terran transition from marine-marauder because he lost.... MVP got outplayed, his strategy was still solid. You know there are times when sometimes the other guy is just better right? Just because one team wins, doesn't make it due to imbalance. MVP and Squirtle aren't twins that have identical skill or anything. | ||
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Cheticus
United States83 Posts
You can either NP the colossus and use a hydra mix (broodlords are less important, so you might skip them), using one fungal to try to keep everything in place. Then burn down the voidrays while neural parasite is up and your hydras can live. This is a delicate way to approach the ball, but if you can front with a few roaches or lings and get your infestors in range to take [all] his colossus, then there's a window where you can stop the ball from killing your hydras and wreck his air army. Or; you can mix broodlords into your mix and go with a primarily ground army (little bit more roach centric, since you need extra gas for broods), and use a fungal to hold everything down while you pump infested terrans HARD around his ball. The broodlords distract the colossus from focusing on your ground army, and your queens heal the broodlords while everything burns down the ball as soon as possible. This kind of approach is less fragile than the above one, but is more positionally intensive. The first method relies on protoss NOT mixing in too many stalkers [particularly blink stalkers], but the second method works well since your ground presence is considerable and stalkers will have a difficult time approaching the broodlords. If you have enough infestors you can fungal the stalkers in situation 1 and prevent them from breaking NP too much. That's just me though. You do need to macro well and tech faster than you think is reasonable, but the colo voidray mix will wait to move out if they don't see a spire, since protoss typically assumes he will roll you the later the game progresses with that mix, which is certainly not true in my experience. I'm ~3000 masters Z. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:08 FlashtehKira wrote: thanks Artosis,but remember PvT more imbalanced than PvZ. phoenix+colossus more scary than void+colossus. LOL what? Terran has a better win% vs protoss maybe you just need a new build.. gretorp just talked about three builds he does... Thor... emp... 3 port viking banshee.. so maybe before you talk about a topic they said was fine you should do your research...... PvT is currently the most balanced match up your probolly just over committing to bio... Btw last time i lost to a zerg where i didn't throw the game was like a month ago.. Yea add AH thor and emp and LOL.... i don't think you are utilizing your units AT ALL... | ||
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EliteReplay
Dominican Republic913 Posts
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
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CrAzEdBaDgEr
Canada166 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:58 GGzerG wrote: Well I have to completely disagree here, when I see a protoss massing voidray / colossi I am actually always very happy / confident that I will win, Obviously corrupters are not the correct solution, IMO the correct solution is MASS mutalisk with upgrades, then upgrades on zerglings, Speedling, Baneling, Mutalisk, will almost always win vs voidray / colossi, since there will be practically no sentries out on the field. I have encountered this build many times, and when you see it coming, it is actually a lot easier to stop than people think, the only problem is mass mutalisk instead of mass corrupter, I'm surprised that Idra would not attempt to come to this conclusion...I guess because he goes roach / hydra / corrupter EVERY ZvP i've ever seen him play, like I said before, no offense but I strongly disagree, Muta / ling / bling with upgrades destroys voidray / colossi / zealot army. EDIT : The only real thing you have to worry about when massing muta / ling / bling is them going storm / archon, and even then by the time they do this , you can just tech switch to mass roach / ultralisk then broodlord and you will almost always be fine. I play random, and I completely agree with you. Mass muta is really hard for Protoss to deal with unless the Protoss has a decent number of sentries and/or lots of phoenixes. Upgraded speedlings as a mineral dump with mass upgraded mutalisks are quite effective against this, and once a lot of the void rays are gone, re-max with roaches (can be done much faster than the Protoss can rebuild his army) for the win. I'm not saying the Protoss death ball isn't extremely difficult to deal with, but mass mutalisks are really good against this version of the death ball. EDIT: I forgot to add that many zerg players also don't bother teching up to tier 3, and I feel many complaints lie in the fact that a tier 2 zerg army is fighting a tier 3 protoss army. If the zerg player gets NP or brood lords out, a lot can change, and the broodlings have upgrade synergy with zerglings (the mineral dump) too. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:08 FlashtehKira wrote: thanks Artosis,but remember PvT more imbalanced than PvZ. phoenix+colossus more scary than void+colossus. btw.... terran has no problem with this if they react well.. | ||
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FlashtehKira
8 Posts
On February 16 2011 10:08 Yamulo wrote: btw.... terran has no problem with this if they react well.. btw...zerg has no problem with this if they react well with Corruptors. also i am 3k master,just check european pros "ClouD:protoss is so easy,i win against BratOK(best eu terran) with protoss" | ||
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Aequos
Canada606 Posts
Basically, my feeling is that it may be overpowered, but we really haven't seen the proper Zerg response in a big tournament, so we can't say for sure. On the Tank transition they mentioned in the question section - I could see this becoming a big issue for Protoss if it turns out that Terran has a solid lategame. Protoss really is put on the back foot after the opening against Terran, so if this army turns out to be as good as Protoss's, Protoss will be innately disadvantaged in the matchup (not saying it is, just saying it could become an issue). Edit: The post above mine reminded me - why exactly are Corruptors considered a good counter to Void Rays? If I remember correctly, Corruptors do pretty low dps, even against Massive Units (which is their only +damage bonus) while Void Rays do pretty ridiculous dps to armored units. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On February 16 2011 10:08 Yamulo wrote: btw.... terran has no problem with this if they react well.. I dont think saying terrans have "no problem" with this is right either, as it feels like one of the stronger PvT openings atm and really comes down to micro and positioning. Still, I wouldnt call it imbalanced. | ||
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Contra1
Netherlands25 Posts
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Lexvink
Canada310 Posts
On February 16 2011 10:07 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote: I play random, and I completely agree with you. Mass muta is really hard for Protoss to deal with unless the Protoss has a decent number of sentries and/or lots of phoenixes. Upgraded speedlings as a mineral dump with mass upgraded mutalisks are quite effective against this, and once a lot of the void rays are gone, re-max with roaches (can be done much faster than the Protoss can rebuild his army) for the win. I'm not saying the Protoss death ball isn't extremely difficult to deal with, but mass mutalisks are really good against this version of the death ball. EDIT: I forgot to add that many zerg players also don't bother teching up to tier 3, and I feel many complaints lie in the fact that a tier 2 zerg army is fighting a tier 3 protoss army. If the zerg player gets NP or brood lords out, a lot can change, and the broodlings have upgrade synergy with zerglings (the mineral dump) too. It was mentioned that the Void Rays do insane amounts of damage to Broodlord with the +20% vs massive. In combination with the collosus 9 range and the fact that VRs are flying units, the Protoss army will have an easy time picking off the Infestors. Also, Artosis and IdrA reinforced this point tremendously, the Protoss is able to scout so well. If they see you getting a spire, then mutalisks, the Protoss will one, already be getting more stalkers and less Collosus after seeing the spire. Then he/she will be able to pump Phoenix out of 2 chronoboosted stargates in response to mass mutalisk. | ||
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Esper
United States87 Posts
On February 16 2011 10:07 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote: I play random, and I completely agree with you. Mass muta is really hard for Protoss to deal with unless the Protoss has a decent number of sentries and/or lots of phoenixes. Upgraded speedlings as a mineral dump with mass upgraded mutalisks are quite effective against this, and once a lot of the void rays are gone, re-max with roaches (can be done much faster than the Protoss can rebuild his army) for the win. I'm not saying the Protoss death ball isn't extremely difficult to deal with, but mass mutalisks are really good against this version of the death ball. EDIT: I forgot to add that many zerg players also don't bother teching up to tier 3, and I feel many complaints lie in the fact that a tier 2 zerg army is fighting a tier 3 protoss army. If the zerg player gets NP or brood lords out, a lot can change, and the broodlings have upgrade synergy with zerglings (the mineral dump) too. Considering the protoss is going robo/stargate it's very easy for him to transition to phoenix with his stargates as soon as he sees mutas. Mutas aren't a mass up and roll unit like VR/colossus so with 5 phoenixes the map control is gone and you've wasted the resources. It's a case of "mass muta would be nice RIGHT NOW" but remember units don't come up instantly it takes time to mass them up and in that time protoss will easily adapt to counter it hard. | ||
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NeoSlicerZ
Ireland470 Posts
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CCa1ss1e
Canada3231 Posts
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