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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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DuckS
United States845 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:17 shaunnn wrote: surely mass corrupters destroy this, i can understand trouble with mothership in pvz but not this:/ yea a huge amount of corruptors and roach fares well against this. you really can't produce any more colo/vray if he shuts down your initial ball when will Artosis and IdrA do a video about a Zerg imbalance? Unfortunately, we all know the answer.. | ||
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NearPerfection
232 Posts
I think u2 should go more in depth because it seems like alot of ur conclusions are based on "i feel". | ||
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rfoster
United States1005 Posts
Am I being dumb or does anybody else think this | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
Furthermore, unless the Toss is on 4-base, transitioning into a heavy stargate voidray build is extremely difficult. Once again, I do not agree with the comment about what was said about the Protoss death ball being unbeatable. If you use the baneling drop on top of the army, you don't need ultralisks vs forcefields and you don't need mass queens (wtf, funday monday?) Just because Artosis and Idra didn't mention the alternative, doesn't mean there aren't any out there. Maybe they should restructure the show to illustrate the various amounts of strategies that they have tried to come up with to support their argument that this deathball is not beatable. Simply quoting one-game where a Protoss went 2-base collo/void is not enough to support any argument. There are other factors in that particular game. Was the zerg too aggro/passive? Did his macro slip? Was the zerg actually playing perfectly into his hands instead of adapting to a strategy that he did not see before? Since these two fail to actually do any "work" to prove any of what they say (a recent thread was closed b/c it talked about how spawning positions were bias on metalopolis, people did WORK, aka open 100 games vs ai and recorded the results to prove him wrong). Since this is a fully produced youtube video, I doubt Idra and Artosis lack the time to actually put some effort behind their arguments. Not saying its bad to provide an opinion, but given the amount of weight that these two hold, maybe there should be some credit-checking as well. Not every option is exhausted vs the protoss deathball... I can name 3 alternatives just the top of my head that were not even explored in this video (Idra said there were only 2 answers to Protoss) 1) Baneling drop (as mentioned above) 2) heavy aggression to prevent a death ball 3) attacking multiple fronts (particularly on a big map) via nydus/drops/zergling speed to avoid confronting death ball... Clearly there are more than 2 options, and if I can just shit-out 3 off the top of my head, you can probably think of more. One of my practice partners recently also used a heavy roach infestor build that also beat the shit out of me. My tier 1 became useless and confined to my base early game b/c of the fungal growth and mobility of speedlings and roach speed. My late game consisted of trying to get said-deathball rolling, but failed because the pressure he put, having map control, was much too strong. He obviously created a strategy instead of a youtube video about why 2 particular strategies don't work. This show is about 2 strategies that don't work. The title "IMBALANCED" is deceiving. Watch at your own risk. OH BY THE WAY, I DID WATCH THE VIDEO | ||
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Serpico
4285 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:30 DuckS wrote: yea a huge amount of corruptors and roach fares well against this. you really can't produce any more colo/vray if he shuts down your initial ball when will Artosis and IdrA do a video about a Zerg imbalance? Unfortunately, we all know the answer.. When zerg becomes very imbalanced aka early roaches in the beta. | ||
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shindigs
United States4795 Posts
A protoss who can transition into late game void rays to compliment his colossus while Zerg is still on Hydra roach is pretty much bad news bears for Zerg. Void Rays are great end game units and very flexible. Haven't watch the episode yet but these are my initial impressions to those thinking Void Ray/Collosus can be stopped as easy as a gateway/collosus combo. I'm interested to see what IdrA and Artosis say about this combo outside the fact that it is extremely hard to stop. The "Guinea pig build" as we saw it in the GSL exploited this combo, but it was due to the fact that Zerg just played too defensively and allowed Protoss to expand and chrono probes. However, as I said earlier, I feel that protoss TRANSITIONING into void ray/collosus can make for an extremely devastating end game situation even if the Zerg scouts and prepares for it, since Zerg air is pretty inferior to Protoss air in that situation. | ||
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bri9and
United States246 Posts
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Barca
United States418 Posts
Also being on 2 bases is all-in, so Zerg must also all-in to defend it And please stop talking about VoidRay/Collosus/Sentry, it is so incredible gas heavy that it can only be performed if the Zerg has played passively the whole game. Therefore, do not play passively. EDIT: Your argument is not fluid and strong and does not take into account all factors. User was warned for this post | ||
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Jerax
Canada189 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:36 rS.Sinatra wrote: Stalkers taking pot-shots at corruptors? You know, there are other alternatives to Roach/Hydra/Corruptor vs stalker collo ball... I'm not saying that you have MANY other alternatives, but I remember vaguely getting the shit kicked out of me by mass overlord baneling drop on top of my army. This seems much more cost effective than building 1-A- corruptors. Furthermore, unless the Toss is on 4-base, transitioning into a heavy stargate voidray build is extremely difficult. Once again, I do not agree with the comment about what was said about the Protoss death ball being unbeatable. If you use the baneling drop on top of the army, you don't need ultralisks vs forcefields and you don't need mass queens (wtf, funday monday?) Just because Artosis and Idra didn't mention the alternative, doesn't mean there aren't any out there. Speed upped ovies still dont move as fast as stalkers, the stalkers will just snipe - move your overlords until they are all dead, with the banelings inside it. And remember overlords dont drop banelings all at once so even if some banes do some damage, it will be minimal damage. Toss will just roll you after. | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:27 MaXy57 wrote: Did you apologize to idra for tricking him into an air high five? Because that was mean. Idra had his revenge >:D | ||
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Ikuu
United Kingdom97 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:38 bri9and wrote: honestly, this show is turning into a whine session about zerg... for this show to have any real validity, it really needs to touch on something other than zerg and the problems they have with X. Like the TvP episode last week? | ||
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Djeez
543 Posts
I think they should have some kind of stamp into the screen like *THUD* IMBALANCED *THUD*, mythbusters style. | ||
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
Again there was no protoss perspective on this matchup. Artosis had nothing to offer about this subject being a "protoss" player other than "I tried it on ladder I and it's unstoppable". They also did not mention the timing window where the protoss is very weak trying to do this off 2 base. Realistically you CAN'T just go colossus/vr on 2 base right off the bat and be able to hold off any sort of pressure from the zerg. Idra basically wrote off any sort of counter-pressure as impossible. Their solution was to buff corrupters but did did they consider the effects of this on other situations? eg: If VR/colossus are OP against zerg and buffing corrupters remedies the situation, that means they are also implying a standard protoss army without void rays is OP against a standard zerg army. Otherwise buffing corrupters would give zerg a unfair advantage? imo this was one of the worst episodes I"ve seen. | ||
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GenZai
France38 Posts
thanks for the show. i hope ep4 will be released in mp3 too | ||
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dapierow
Serbia1316 Posts
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DNA61289
United States665 Posts
So when you scout the Protoss going this build you can easily take a third since the VR and Colossus are going to take a while to mass, then start pumping mutas and queens and a few infestors ( really you only need 3 with full energy). You can also use the mutas to harass the Protoss. | ||
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PPTouch
99 Posts
but yeah you guys need to get away from qwying about colossus. srsly. | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On February 16 2011 09:46 GenZai wrote: maybe you could give us a mp3 file because, no offence, but i dont give a f... seeing your face talking. if you'd show things in game it would make sense to make a video but you dont. thanks for the show. i hope ep4 will be released in mp3 too that was one of the first things they said they'll work on in this video | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
I enjoyed this show. Sure I'm a bit biased, but I definitely feel like 1 or 2 more range on corruptors would give Zerg a looot more flexibility for dealing with the toss ball. | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
You talked about colossi for like 3 episodes now? Voidray colossi is strong vs zerg indeed but see it from 2 ways, If we wouldn't use that unit comb we would PROBABLY lose since the other protoss builds really just don't do as good vs mass zerg balls. Probably when they change this Protoss will just drop the void rays and get loads of HT's instead. I've seen loads of actually good zergs winning matches vs tosses going this build by simply harassing the shit out of the multiple bases a toss needs for this since mutas and even a bunch of zerglings are so much more mobile then the toss army. oh and btw, Drones are OP User was warned for this post | ||
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