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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
The problem I have with their suggested corrupter buff is that you basically make both Protoss' endgame units useless against Z. Carriers pretty aren't used already, stronger corrupters against the normal Collossi ball would just slaughter.
I'm also disappointed to see that everything they suggested involved going head-to-head with toss' army. That's the point of a deathball: you don't go against it. Two base protoss still isn't amazing against muta harass.
And yes, charged void rays destroy muta. Thing is: if you're harassing, they won't be able to charge (just run away before they do). I'll admit that if they switch to phoenix instead, mutas will not do that well. But then you just go corruptor, since phoenixes are so pathetically weak against them.
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On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast.
Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument.
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On February 16 2011 10:35 DImported wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:21 rS.Sinatra wrote:
Just finished watching YongHwa vs Kyrix.
Zerg building only 2 zerglings before he was on 3-base basically allowed Protoss to rush to the perfect unit composition, without wasting gas for sentry and stalker to hold off zergling/roach pressure.
This game is poor evidence in supporting the 'imbalance' of the collosus/void deathball. Furthermore, even though the zerg did not build units until 3-base, he was still only EVEN in drone count. Since I have played many games vs zergs in a similar situation, I have met many zergs with much better macro. And if he did make zerglings or roaches for early aggression, it's easy for the protoss to make sentries or cannons to nullify that. Then the zerg is even further behind in economy and has to work extra hard to deal with the protoss ball later on.
making sentry and stalker delays collo/void ball... his macro was shit... he should have way more than 34 drone vs 34 probe off 3 base
his macro should have been MUCH more ahead, given that he didnt even use zerglings or roaches to pressure.
Furthermore, its much easier for a zerg to out-econ a protoss if protoss is spending all his gas on sentry and stalker instead of voidray and collosus. P can't move out with death ball as soon as he'd like to. This in turn lets his 3-base economy to kick into the late game, which is much stronger the longer it exists.
The point is, if you don't want to die to a 2-base collo-voidray, build some units.
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On February 16 2011 10:14 jhsu98 wrote:Considering the protoss is going robo/stargate it's very easy for him to transition to phoenix with his stargates as soon as he sees mutas. Mutas aren't a mass up and roll unit like VR/colossus so with 5 phoenixes the map control is gone and you've wasted the resources. It's a case of "mass muta would be nice RIGHT NOW" but remember units don't come up instantly it takes time to mass them up and in that time protoss will easily adapt to counter it hard.
The phoenix transition isn't a concern for several reasons. First of all, when using this a good zerg will always build a few corruptors to assist the mutas, as they can fend off phoenixes extremely well and add some extra damage when targetting colossi. Secondly, by forcing a phoenix response you've driven the protoss player away from his intended vr/colossus build and caused him to lock up a lot of precious gas in other units.
Mutas can indeed be a mass-up and roll unit, it simply depends on what armies you are facing. It won't work against an army stacked with AA, such as marines or stalker/sentry, but it will work very well against vr/colossus/zealot.
The last objection is the worst. RTS games are all about scouting what your opponent is doing and adapting to counter it. Do you think the protoss player somehow produces the void rays and colossi instantly without the zerg having a chance to build a counter? Complaining that your opponent scouts and adapts while you do not is simply equivalent to admitting you are a bad player.
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Forgive me, I'm an SC2 newb and don't even play. I just like to watch, but I'm wondering why, against the Colossus + VR build vZ you never mentioned using Infestors at all for Neural Parasite.
Is that not viable? You can target the VRs or Colossi or even a Sentry for Guardian shield. It MUST be somewhat useful. Fungal Growth even immobilizes VRs long enough to reset their Prismatic Beams.
What do you think? I'm totally convinced that this build is NOT imba, it's just that SC2 is still too new and there's a lot of strategic work to be developed.
Anyway, enjoyed the episode though, keep it up. BTW, I like how it was a bit shorter as well.
:D
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On February 16 2011 10:37 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 10:34 Mutarisk wrote:On February 16 2011 10:32 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 10:30 hunts wrote:
I doubt mutas wil work. The P will most likely scout that you're making mutas instead of all corruptors, and will add in phoenixes. Plus void rays charged laready do decently well vs mutas. yeah, while you are at it, you might as well just "add" some archons too...since they'll just magically appear if you get scouted building something You are missing the point. Phoenixes come from the same production facilty/tech that void rays do. They're cheaper and pump out ridiculously fast. Corruptors counter phoenix pretty handily, have you ever thought about building a few in your composition? Or are you trying to just disregard an entire alternative simply because "he can build phoenixes from the same production facility" ? You can build corruptor and mutalisk from the same hatchery too. That is the extent of your argument.
Stalkers deal with both those units fabulously. When zerg go straight spire route against this, it is such a heavy investment that the zerg really needs to be quite far ahead economically.
If the protoss is properly scouting and sees the zerg getting too greedy, i guarantee you he will just push out with the 2 colossus and 2 rounds of stalkers and straight up just kill you.
The build itself is what they are arguing is overpowered.
It is extremely flexible and scouting is basically guaranteed with it.
I just don't see mutas as a great option against an opponent with good scouting cause a timing push will just kill you (the build does start with gateways - > colossus - > void rays)
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On February 16 2011 10:35 wheelchairs wrote:Truths have been spoken and this is a build that is truly only beaten IMO if you are much better than your opponent anyway and his macro was <par.
http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/cup81/download/25093794/
how to beat this build even when you're not better than your opponent
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Canada1470 Posts
On February 16 2011 10:43 cca1ss1e wrote:
Forgive me, I'm an SC2 newb and don't even play. I just like to watch, but I'm wondering why, against the Colossus + VR build vZ you never mentioned using Infestors at all for Neural Parasite.
Is that not viable? You can target the VRs or Colossi or even a Sentry for Guardian shield. It MUST be somewhat useful. Fungal Growth even immobilizes VRs long enough to reset their Prismatic Beams.
What do you think? I'm totally convinced that this build is NOT imba, it's just that SC2 is still too new and there's a lot of strategic work to be developed.
Anyway, enjoyed the episode though, keep it up. BTW, I like how it was a bit shorter as well.
:D
I remember moon trying this in gsl on shakuras. He had a pretty big macro advantage but his infestors got targeted and he lost the game despite NP'ing all the collosi.
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I've done this build before on Shakuras and IMO it is actually overpowered. The guy I was playing was 6 base zerg to my 3.5 base protoss, and he threw 4 max armies at mine. Looking at the replay, my army was around twice as efficient costwise as his, and he tried almost every tech he had. The first army was roach hydra corruptor, which melted horribly. Second was almost pure roach corruptor and that managed to push me back to my 3rd, losing much of it in the process. By the 3rd max I had a few HT's in the mix along with everything else and melted his 3rd max, and his 4th max on pure mutalisk didn't manage to finish off my ball either because I had HT tech to clean up. While I understand that zerg is supposed to lose, when a zerg with a huge economic advantage can't kill me with multiple max armies, and trying multiple strategies, it is quite possibly overpowered.
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I really dont see this composition being an issue.. I mean, even if it is, its friggin two tier 3 units to the max.. and they are saying its hard to counter?? They are SUPPOSE to be, to get a good army of collosus/voidrays, thats a LOT of minerals, most likely 3 or more bases. Zerg should have a huge army at that time that would be just as deadly if they used zergs strong point; mobility.. to their advantage..
I wonder if we'll EVER see a episode where anything zerg related is considered "imbalanced".. instead, I guess they want blizzard to just remove terran and protoss from the game.. Mise well go play WC1, where the races are the exact same.
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I always wondered why not go muta's to deal with this army mix? constant harass is very annoying as a toss player, let alone the fact that this army is so freaking slow basically says "yeah harass me, it'll take all day to defend", as well as the fact that muta's RAPE void rays, 2 muta's easily kill 1 VR, more mobile etc. and obviously after you kill the VR's you can kill his collosus.
Basically, why doesn't ling/muta kill this? lings will obviously die to collosus but why not just use them to clean up some stalkers/take away some VR aggro and have muta's kill the VR's then the collosus?
Did anyone try it? Just wanted to know how it fared vs the deathball.
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Just a question, as I haven't really seen the build in question, but just how many Warp Gates can you even get with that build?
I mean, 2 Stargates continuously building Void Rays + 1 Robo continously building Colossi. Can you really have more than two gates? Maybe three at most if you go pure zealot? How the hell can switch to heavy stalkers as fast as some of you hint?
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On February 16 2011 10:51 Aerakin wrote:
Just a question, as I haven't really seen the build in question, but just how many Warp Gates can you even get with that build?
I mean, 2 Stargates continuously building Void Rays + 1 Robo continously building Colossi. Can you really have more than two gates? Maybe three at most if you go pure zealot? How the hell can switch to heavy stalkers as fast as some of you hint?
4-6
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Actually mutas rape phoenix. Phoenix only beat mutas with micro and that's why i suggested infestors since FG will hold the phoenix in place and the mutas will beat them. And since the Protoss invested in phoenix his VR count will be lower and he wont be able to support his colossus as well. So to say the least this build is not IMBA.
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Zerg just needs scourge instead of corruptors. This would mean the void rays can't charge up on them, and would die before they could do any damage. Same goes with collossus. You also don't have the problem of a mass of useless corruptors taking up all your pop, when protoss does a tech switch.
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Please consider making the episodes as long as you'd like. One hour isn't a problem as long as the content is engaging, which to this point, I feel like it has been. If people don't want to watch that long, they can stop the video whenever, which provides the same thing for them, while also giving more to the people who want to continue watching.
Again, as long as you don't start wandering around topics, it seems like a win-win to me.
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On February 16 2011 10:52 DNA61289 wrote:
Actually mutas rape phoenix. Phoenix only beat mutas with micro and that's why i suggested infestors since FG will hold the phoenix in place and the mutas will beat them. And since the Protoss invested in phoenix his VR count will be lower and he wont be able to support his colossus as well. So to say the least this build is not IMBA.
Uh no? Cost for cost, phoenix rape mutas.
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For everyone saying that going muta counters this is not thinking that the toss has 2 stargates(atleast) and has a phoenix already scouting. So the build then becomes few voids heavy phoenix collosus with gateway units. very easy to scout a zerg with a phoneix. Also toss can get 6+ phoenix(off 2 base 2 stagate with chrono) in 1 in game minute. They are saying the problem with this build is zerg cannot react because they cannot scout without luck (but you cannot rely on that in a competitive game) while toss can scout and react to whatever they see very easily. Please think about what they said instead of just saying "these people are biased this is trash." You look like a fool. Plus Artosis said he is undefeated with this build. Does anyone see anything wrong with this even fruitdealer, nestea, mc and mvp lose with their builds sometimes and they are the best in the world. No offense to Artosis but he is not the BEST in the world as these other players(he is still a very good better then me and the majority of people) and he is undefeated. Something is wrong with this.
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Uh no? Cost for cost, phoenix rape mutas.
maybe in smaller numbers, but if you are going muta ling and queens then you will have more mutas then he has phoenix, the only advantage phoenix have is that they can fire on the move, and one FG will neutralize that.
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if idra and artosis tested this i agree with them... but i think MMM is OP early game ...i vote for mecha play  (also i am toss ) but i test mecha builds..
simply : maraders (no stimed) > stalkers 10 maraders (no stimed) > 12 stalkers
maraders > rocuhs 10 maraders > 12 rocuhs... also marines.... try in unite test map..
simply i think maraders dont need stim to do good...dps
hope more mech play from terran in future...(i love it)
as toss i dont know they need to change samthing coloss do to much dps..(mass colos)
for void i dont know i think they are ok....
thx for another episode wish you best luck in future EP also no cat in this one keep it like that..
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EPT
