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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 12:27 red_b wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:18 Aerakin wrote:
If he goes heavy gateways, the deathball is going to be WAYYYYYYY delayed. It probably be on two bases, or he has to heavily cut units at some point. there is no deathball. there is only you dying to his push before you get your mutas in any real number. the pros are not going mutas in PvZ for a reason. argue against that all you like, but it's an unconvincing argument given what Ive seen in GSL VODs, replays, streams, etc.
I think you misunderstood me, that's my point. There's no point discussing heavy gateway in this thread because it just doesn't work well for the Collossus/Void Ray mix. If he does do it, he's going to be vulnerable.
Why would you even put out mutas to prepare for something that you know isn't coming.
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dont listen to sinatra he isnt even a top level player. I LoLed when he said mass banelings with overlords beat him when he used this strat lol
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Okay...
I want a new rule on these threads.
I want you to post your rating/league when you post something
cause this is becoming childish
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On February 16 2011 12:31 EternaL_9 wrote:
Mutalisks.
They go for phoenix/ stalker to counter? GOOD. now they arent going for the deathball.
The answer is really simple, its mass mutas. If they just 'go' for this ball, mass mass mutas with upgrades will rape it because your anti air is well, void rays and a few stalkers. And again, if they catch wind of the mass mutas and go phoenix, then they aren't going for colossus / void ray anymore
Wait...you want the guy to have phoenix when you are going muta?
Phoenix absolutely DESTROY any number of mutalisks, with stalkers with them, your mutas will die before you can blink.
The only reasonable time to go mutas is if they DON'T go stargate.
Do you even play this game?
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I'm disappointed that Artosis and Idra seem to be concluding that Colossus/Void Ray is imbalanced so quickly rather than trying to actually find a way of beating it. Maybe a good Ultra/Hydra/Queen/Infestor mix. Fungal Growth would be pretty devastating on Void Rays since they clump so tight. Don't give up so easily!
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I just watched the match that they referenced in the show and to me it just looked like the zerg mishandled the information that was in front of him and pushed when he had too few corruptors. I'm not convinced at all, zerg have a lot more options than have been presented in this show.
I really don't mind the idea of a buff to corruptors, though I think it should come in the form of a buff to corrupt itself.
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The only thing I don't understand about VRs is even though they have been nerfed to hell since Retail, people moan more about them now than before when they could almost do 4 speed and their damage was ALOT more.
The Collo I think is fine right now, being a ground unit that can attacked by Air balances its damage. I think people just need to give time to find ways to counter it.
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People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction.
No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens.
It seemed to me that Idra really underestimated queen usage. Queens are amazing against void rays. They work actually very well against colossus, especially in comparison with hydras.
On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at.
Uh... Idra is code S you know...
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On February 16 2011 12:40 branflakes14 wrote:
I'm disappointed that Artosis and Idra seem to be concluding that Colossus/Void Ray is imbalanced so quickly rather than trying to actually find a way of beating it. Maybe a good Ultra/Hydra/Queen/Infestor mix. Fungal Growth would be pretty devastating on Void Rays since they clump so tight. Don't give up so easily!
Ultra hydra queen infestor?
Maybe on 5 bases. The push would come before you had enough time/gas to support that. Plus void rays destroy ultras and colossus destroy hydras and the queens and infestors will die pretty quick as well.
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I'll have to give this episode a herp derp / 10 for failing to basically considering anything but corruptors as a counter. Corruptors don't work right now? Buff them. We must have easy counter to this.
Cmon guys, there's usually at least 5 different types of units in that ball, and you want one zerg unit to be savior of the race when it comes to dealing with the entire goddamn protoss tech tree (I've seen storm added in the ball to even further its usefulness). There are a number of combinations that are viable against this, as well as abusing mobility of the race and things like drops and mineral line harrass to never let him get comfortable with his set of units.
The first two episodes weren't bad because there was at least some discussion, but this one was pretty awful and to me seemed like just plain complaining
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On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know...
Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL.
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ppl that are saying "go mass muta" have no idea how much a void+stalker+sentry composition rapes mutas. it rapes them so hard that its not funny. the DPS of that comp is just to high for mutas alone to deal with. they wont ever need to make 1 phoenix.
if toss ever gets maxed and you have mass mutas all he will have to do is simply push and auto win. you can fuck up his base all u want with the mutas, but it wont stop him from rolling your base. and going for a base race wont accomplish anything either because mutas will never take out a base faster.
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On February 16 2011 12:51 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know... Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL.
So you are implying that Code S is not the top tier of players?
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8748 Posts
On February 16 2011 12:39 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:31 EternaL_9 wrote:
Mutalisks.
They go for phoenix/ stalker to counter? GOOD. now they arent going for the deathball.
The answer is really simple, its mass mutas. If they just 'go' for this ball, mass mass mutas with upgrades will rape it because your anti air is well, void rays and a few stalkers. And again, if they catch wind of the mass mutas and go phoenix, then they aren't going for colossus / void ray anymore Wait...you want the guy to have phoenix when you are going muta? Phoenix absolutely DESTROY any number of mutalisks, with stalkers with them, your mutas will die before you can blink. The only reasonable time to go mutas is if they DON'T go stargate. Do you even play this game?
If you take IdrA's word for it, that's all Zerg needs is to build a 200/200 army that will be able to kill a significant number of VR/Colo before it dies so that the next 200/200 army can kill what's left. How many Mutas do you have to make to get the Protoss to spend ~1500 gas on Stalkers/Phoenixes and occupy Stargates so that there will be significantly less VR/Colo? How much damage can the Mutas do before Protoss is able to completely fend them off? (Even if Protoss is vigilant about scouting, a Spire and some saved larvae does not conclusively indicate Mutas. At best, Protoss can start defending against Muta as soon as the first Muta hatches. If enough hatch simultaneously, there will be a Muta power play for them to do some damage.)
You make the Mutas and do as much as you can with them until they inevitably die, hopefully in the back of the Protoss base while your ground army is hitting the front. As soon as the Mutas die, you re-max and pull your army back. This should put the Zerg in a much better position because it creates an opportunity for the Zerg ground army to do some damage and it makes the Protoss unit composition worse. By the time the major head-on fight happens, Zerg will have whatever composition they want but Protoss will have Stalkers and Phoenixes leftover.
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Isn't it possible to greatly slow this down by utilizing contaminate? That should either curtail the number of units in the push or make it come later, allowing Zerg to counter appropriately. Muta harass couple with this should make it manageable.
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On February 16 2011 12:46 ffadicted wrote:
I'll have to give this episode a herp derp / 10 for failing to basically considering anything but corruptors as a counter. Corruptors don't work right now? Buff them. We must have easy counter to this.
Watch the video again. They mention at least 5 times that they've asked around constantly, bumping ideas, etc off other players, and have yet to come up with a viable unit composition. Now whether you believe that statement is another issue. But please don't incorporate facts in your argument that were actually addressed in the video. You could at least give these the guys benefit of a doubt that they've planned/studied their topic before making what you would call a "blanket conclusion".
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On February 16 2011 12:52 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:51 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know... Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL. So you are implying that Code S is not the top tier of players?
I'm implying that idra being code s has nothing to do with this
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On February 16 2011 12:51 Ballistixz wrote:
ppl that are saying "go mass muta" have no idea how much a void+stalker+sentry composition rapes mutas. it rapes them so hard that its not funny. the DPS of that comp is just to high for mutas alone to deal with. they wont ever need to make 1 phoenix.
To have that kind of composition, they must skip Collossus.
If they don't have that, the problem is not VR/Collossus. I'm sorry, but to have a significant amount of stalkers/sentries, the deathball isn't a problem, as it isn't coming.
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On February 16 2011 12:51 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know... Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL.
I don't understand this logic, it is any given Sunday when it comes to SC2. There are plenty of good people who aren't in Code A or Code S, but that is because of the way qualifiers are setup. Code S and Code A will eventually show consistency, but I don't think you are in the right for degrading some of the tip top players in the world because of 4 hard played games which turned into one guys favor.
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On February 16 2011 12:54 rS.Sinatra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 12:52 Karthane wrote:On February 16 2011 12:51 rS.Sinatra wrote:On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote:People are saying that the corruptor isn't that bad against the void ray. I mean I think that's a little strange simply because being unable to attack ground units (which is 75%+ units people have) is kind of a huge deal. Going mass corruptor is expensive, and seems like a complete overreaction. No, I'm much more interested in the mass queen solution. They do very well against both the colossus and the void ray. And that means you have more gas for corruptor/muta and upgrades. I think its only a matter of time before hydras get phased out of matchups in exchange for more queens. On February 16 2011 12:29 Zealot Lord wrote:
I love Artosis - but this show is turning into a joke. Artosis said it himself that balance should be revolved around the tip top pro's; while I honestly have high regards for his skills, I don't think he considers himself a tip top pro. So his statements of "I'm proud to say I haven't lost to a zerg since using this strat" is so absurdly evidently biased. Everybody knows that he is a zerg at heart, him playing protoss doesn't change that one bit. When I see replays of Artosis crushing the likes of Nestea/Fruitdealer, then yea, certainly this void ray/collosus combo should be looked at. Uh... Idra is code S you know... Last time I checked, Code S didn't mean that much... especially after one of those, what do you call them? No-name Code A scrubs? 4-0ed an entire team of Code S's in GSTL. So you are implying that Code S is not the top tier of players? I'm implying that idra being code s has nothing to do with this
Well obviously it sets him apart from just any random Zerg player. How does it not affect the validity of his statements?
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