EPTI started seeing this build than thought oh ill just make a TON corrupters. Oh wait now my ground army sucks,
at least try a buff of corrupters on the PTR.
VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 14
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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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Mommas Boy
Canada144 Posts
I started seeing this build than thought oh ill just make a TON corrupters. Oh wait now my ground army sucks, at least try a buff of corrupters on the PTR. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
As you didnt seem to undestand my post, I give you and exemple. P 3 gates expands, put a robo and scouts you go mutas (I take this expample because so much people here suggest that). P stops what he is doing, throw 2-3 more gates and a pylon and just 6 gates you to death. As easy as that. With maximum macro all you can get is 200/200 roach hydra at 15 min with 10-12 corruptors (with the economy back up to remax because you will always need it.) People saying "make 20+ corruptors"mean that you started to build them very early and did have time to saturate a 3rd and take a 4rth and go for some kind of 2 base all in, or that P macro is really crap, or something went wrong for him. And at the same time, you have not enough roach hydra, so if P is smart he will not wait for Vrays and just push you before with a huge stalker ball with 1-2 colossi and you just die because of your crappier eco. You see what I mean ? Your assumption is wrong because zerg cant just sit down and think of the best unit compo that he can achieve by 15mn unless P blindly goes for his build not punishing Z's lack of strong mid-game. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:36 stink123 wrote: One unit that I wished they had talked about is the infestor. Fungal growth really hurts Void rays (due to clumping) and Neural parasite is pretty good against Collosus. And even infested terrans have potential as well. Fungal can be used to the hold the void rays while queens kill them from range, or delay the push by forcing protoss to only move when the infestors are out of energy or dead. An infestation pit is needed to move to Hive, so the gas costs aren't that significant either. I'm not sure why they consider this type of solution. infestors actually arnt that great either since they pretty much need to be backed up by a ground army. and even if u get a NP off then blink stalkers can simply blink and snipe them off. but i guess if you get a good ammount of infestors you can constantly fungal growth the ball to atleast delay them and chip away at there health. but the problem with that is getting in rage to fungal growth since cols have range 9 and all... | ||
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Mommas Boy
Canada144 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:16 Roxy wrote: First of all, zerg can too scout: If you send an overlord into my base and I kill it with a void ray.. i think its pretty damn obvious that i'm getting void rays. If i send stalkers to go kill it, if they dont blink.. i'm probably not going HT tech Sentry are too slow to catch an overlord and kill it before it can scout. You dont have to run a changeling in through our main.. man up and drop one in the side of our base. IF we see it, our army isnt goign to be in position to do anything about it immediately. Also, Perhaps zergs should not be letting protoss sit and get a maxed army with T3 in one tree and T2 in another WITH upgrades Like you siad, we are low on gas. That means we may have a bunch of slow ass void rays and a couple stalkers. If you send a handfull of mutas into our base we are not going to be able to catch you before you do a ton of damage. TOPIC: How about we talk about that aside from colossus, protoss has no cost effective way to deal with roaches. I'm serious.. check it out in the unit tester.. immortals are our best alternative but they are still not a hard counter by any means. 3 roaches with +3 attack do 66 damage and cost 225/75. 1 immortal with +3 attack does 65 damage and costs 250/100 (not to mention we would not be building more than 2 at a time.. 3 tops). Upgraded roaches are faster than stalkers, have = life to zealots, cost 75/25, and can burrow under FF (and regenerate while doing so). All for a 150 mineral investment that does not align with your tech tree to hive. Forcefields. I cant beleive I even have to say it. | ||
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Mommas Boy
Canada144 Posts
fungal doesnt work past anything of gateway units. | ||
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koolaid1990
831 Posts
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:36 Ballistixz wrote: there is a reason why they never mentioned mutas as a viable strat and its because blink stalkers ALONE deal with them so good. so just imagine adding voids to that mix. So you go from 2gate + 2 stargate + 1 robo, to adding four gates, get a Twilight council and THEN get blink? It probably is possible, but I doubt it is as safe as IdrA and Artosis pretend. Sounds expensive, seems like it takes forever and looks like a pretty good timing window for the zerg to attack. And he might not even be going muta. Someone mentioned earlier that even a Spire doesn't mean muta. | ||
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:42 Mommas Boy wrote: collosues out range fungal. fungal doesnt work past anything of gateway units. Liquipedia says that Fungal is also range 9. | ||
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ffadicted
United States3545 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:38 Mommas Boy wrote: The corrupter isnt doing its job. We have to make too many of them and invest too much into them. It screws zerg up all to hell. I started seeing this build than thought oh ill just make a TON corrupters. Oh wait now my ground army sucks, at least try a buff of corrupters on the PTR. How is the corruptor not doing its job? They are SUPPOSED to lose to void rays, you ARE SUPPOSED to get void rays to deal with corruptors. You can't buff them to the extent where they completely negate literally everything that protoss has in the air. Their job is to take down massive units, and they take down the colossus and carrier/mothership pretty damn fast. They even negate phoenix play. They are doing their job. If you want to argue that zerg needs something else to deal with this, that's fine, but I absolutely disagree with the notion that the corruptor needs a buff to make it beat out everything that it can shoot in ZvP. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:41 Mommas Boy wrote: Forcefields. I cant beleive I even have to say it. umm... even if zerg scouts you going void+cols+stalker there is not much you can do to stop it aside from delaying it with overseers and contaminate (which i beleive is a very good idea especially after watching the recent day 9 daily). another problem is that toss has no problem getting t3 units before zerg gets mutas up unless the zerg is doing a muta rush build. also blink stalkers properly microed rape roaches.... do not trust the unit tester in that way, its very misguided. technically immortals hard counter marauders, but if u micro well then marauders can kite and target fire immortals down. hellions are suppose to hard counter light units, but without blue flame marines, zealots, and zerlings handle them perfectly when microed. banelings are suppose to hard counter marines, but if you spread out marines and split them up then you can significantly reduce the damage done to a marine ball. | ||
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PantsB
United States77 Posts
@ all the people claiming this is just a Zerg QQ show. Go and watch the first episode, and listen to the explanation that they give. This show is about Balance at THE HIGHEST ECHELONS of professonal play. At anything under the skill ceiling of people like EGIdrA, TSL_Fruitdealer, etc there are just too many variables to make a concise conclusion regarding balance. (Eg: player skill) So at the GSL level? Where ZvP has gone 50-42? Or the top 32 of the last 4 TL Opens where Z have gone 9-8 in series? There just isn't data to support their complaints. You could look at tournament results are say maybe T is overpowered, maybe. But somehow the only thing they've discussed in the three episodes are Colossi. I'm exaggerating a bit but not nearly as much as they are. Since they've concluded PvZ and specifically the Col, or Col + VR is imba imba in two of their three episodes, but only against the race they play, not T..... of course people are going to say its Zerg QQ'ing. And they'd be right. | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
Not posting replays = might as well be like this thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193356 | ||
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stink123
United States241 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:41 Ballistixz wrote: infestors actually arnt that great either since they pretty much need to be backed up by a ground army. and even if u get a NP off then blink stalkers can simply blink and snipe them off. but i guess if you get a good ammount of infestors you can constantly fungal growth the ball to atleast delay them and chip away at there health. but the problem with that is getting in rage to fungal growth since cols have range 9 and all... What I meant is that infestors could be incorporated as support units into your main army. It has one spell that is effective against void rays and another that is effective against collosus which could turn the tide of battle. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:44 Aerakin wrote: So you go from 2gate + 2 stargate + 1 robo, to adding four gates, get a Twilight council and THEN get blink? It probably is possible, but I doubt it is as safe as IdrA and Artosis pretend. Sounds expensive, seems like it takes forever and looks like a pretty good timing window for the zerg to attack. And he might not even be going muta. Someone mentioned earlier that even a Spire doesn't mean muta. they have vast knowleged of the game, so i doubt they "pretend". they actually know what they are talking about and they wouldnt have made such a controversial show such as this only to "pretend" to know what they are talking about... and no, a spire doesnt mean muta, but it means mutas are a threat. and if a zerg is not making mutas then he is making ground units. and ground units aint gonna do shit to the toss composition mentioned in the show. ive experienced it myself and pure ground units just simply wont even scratch them. you HAAAAAVE to go some kind of air to back up the ground units. and it cannot be pure air like a mass muta build. it HAS to be supported. the things that are effective against that comp are tier 3 units backed up by air like ultras or broods. but again the problem with that is the money needed to support it and how long it takes to get to that point. toss can get his game ending army off of just 2 bases in a relatively short amount of time. | ||
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Oceaniax
146 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:46 Aerakin wrote: Liquipedia says that Fungal is also range 9. If you go ahead and use the unit in-game, you'll see it's not. What liquipedia MIGHT mean is it's range 9 from the infestor to the very far edge of the targetting reticle (which means you'll hit little to nothing if that's where your opponent is). From the infestor to the middle of the targetting reticle would be more like range 7. | ||
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-vVvTitan-
United States473 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:52 PantsB wrote: So at the GSL level? Where ZvP has gone 50-42? Or the top 32 of the last 4 TL Opens where Z have gone 9-8 in series? There just isn't data to support their complaints. You could look at tournament results are say maybe T is overpowered, maybe. But somehow the only thing they've discussed in the three episodes are Colossi. I'm exaggerating a bit but not nearly as much as they are. Since they've concluded PvZ and specifically the Col, or Col + VR is imba imba in two of their three episodes, but only against the race they play, not T..... of course people are going to say its Zerg QQ'ing. And they'd be right. Wrong. They clearly pointed out there is no way for a zerg to penetrate a protoss army of collo/void when it reaches 200/200. They are correct in saying there is no unit composition capable of defeating this. It is not Zerg QQ --- it is purely the fact there is no way to go even or defeat it. | ||
Enervate
United States1769 Posts
Imo, PvZ might start to play a lot more like BW, where zerg will open spire and toss will open stargate for phoenix (like corsair) to counter mutas while corrupters will counter phoenixes (like scourge). | ||
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:00 Titan107 wrote: Wrong. They clearly pointed out there is no way for a zerg to penetrate a protoss army of collo/void when it reaches 200/200. They are correct in saying there is no unit composition capable of defeating this. It is not Zerg QQ --- it is purely the fact there is no way to go even or defeat it. Wrong. I clearly pointed out a solution that was noted above that you failed to read. Its pure fact that you can't see beyond the 2 alternatives that they've given you. | ||
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:58 Ballistixz wrote: and no, a spire doesnt mean muta, but it means mutas are a threat. and if a zerg is not making mutas then he is making ground units. and ground units aint gonna do shit to the toss composition mentioned in the show. ive experienced it myself and pure ground units just simply wont even scratch them. you HAAAAAVE to go some kind of air to back up the ground units. and it cannot be pure air like a mass muta build. it HAS to be supported. the things that are effective against that comp are tier 3 units backed up by air like ultras or broods. but again the problem with that is the money needed to support it and how long it takes to get to that point. toss can get his game ending unit off of just 2 bases in a relatively short amount of time. But what you were basically saying is that if there's a chance of muta you switch to a more gateway heavy mix. I know that mutas are gonna be hilariously bad against stalkers. However, the moment toss switches to heavy gateways, the deathball is NEVER gonna be coming. Unless this unit comp somehow gives infinite money. The toss has to make a choice. If he sees spire and reacts as if you were going muta (heavy gateway), he pretty loses his chance at getting a deathball. If he just ignores it and continues on with his colo + vr, then you can just go muta (assuming that it is any good, which I'll leave as uncertain). Again, I'm not sure that mass muta is the solution to all problems but to me it seems that it could force the protoss away from collo/vr And bleh, I lost my train of thought, cure you SotG (mind you, I don't know the timings well enough to comment on some of the stuff) | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:55 rS.Sinatra wrote: I don't understand how they can claim that they are talking about the highest echelons of play, yet use their experience on ladder as examples to support their arguments... Also.. where the hell are the replays? I wouldn't mind seeing some korean ladder replays on here to support their arguments... Where is this unstoppable winstreak with PvZ Artosis is spouting? Please post these replays for all to see, or honestly, it might as well didn't happen. Not posting replays = might as well be like this thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193356 you really think someone as reputable/popular as artosis would lie about something like that and then go on to compare him to some no named troll poster? nice troll sir, but artosis nor idra are random TL posters that call something "imba" and need to post replays about it. they are professional players that have been playing since early BW days. if artosis says he has said he is undeafeated when using that build then it means he is undefeated. he does not need a replay pack, that is how trusworthy he his. that is how much he has contributed to this community. he is not some random person on TL that makes shit up on the spot. | ||
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