EPTFood for thought.
VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 16
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
Food for thought. | ||
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong748 Posts
On February 16 2011 12:42 DoubleReed wrote: That was in response to someone claiming that Artosis was not high enough level of a player to suggest something was overpowered. Read the quote, he wanted Artosis to wipe the floor with Nestea or Fruitdealer before saying that. In response, I said Idra is Code S, and he is saying its a problem. Please don't misrepresent me. I'm not saying IdrA's word is god because he is code S. My point wasn't really so much on whether Artosis is good enough to suggest if something is imbalanced or not - but more so its blatantly obvious what their intentions are; how can one not see it? Yes, he's a darn good player, but just because he's had a lot of success in ladder with it so far, to just come out and say its flat out undefeatable doesn't make the show very credible in my opinion. You get what I mean? There's no replays no nothing, I'm not saying he's lying, but ladder victories against normal high diamond/master league players isn't exactly convincing evidence that this is imbalanced. So why mention it in the first place? Idra himself is a great great player, but he's also known to be less outside the box/creative type player that has a tendency to give in to the idea something is imbalanced before really trying out everything first. The point is, this imbalanced show is supposed to draw out constructive discussion, they said it themselves in the previous episodes, sometimes it takes a while for a counter to a strategy to come out right? But all of a sudden, that is thrown out the window, and that this strategy, which hasn't been that prevalent in KR ladder (it seems) can already be safely considered as imbalanced just based off of what exactly? That it worked really well once so far in a GSTL match? Whether they are right or wrong regarding the balance of this composition, it just doesn't seem like they are consistent on how they judge/decide whether something is imbalanced or not - and thats why the show seems incredibly biased in my personal opinion. | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:48 bovineblitz wrote: While this build does look very very strong currently, I'm starting to feel the show is more QQ than anything. I mean... at least back up what you're saying... how much merit am I going to give to two zerg players who are both known for complaining? Have to love the substance in your argument. Artosis and IdrA actually fill 30 min of discussion and you can only write 1 sentence to say they are QQing? Please post something that is actually useful to discussion. What builds or strategies can Z do to help delay or kill the deathball? How can they make it less QQ and more actual discussion in your humble opinion? | ||
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Jumbled
1543 Posts
On February 16 2011 13:38 DjayEl wrote: @ Jumbled : no, it is not. Z cant turtle and do whatever he wants, because the beautiful thing is that if you do so, P just can move out and catch you with your pants down and kill you. Because they have fluidity in their timings. As you didnt seem to undestand my post, I give you and exemple. P 3 gates expands, put a robo and scouts you go mutas (I take this expample because so much people here suggest that). P stops what he is doing, throw 2-3 more gates and a pylon and just 6 gates you to death. As easy as that. With maximum macro all you can get is 200/200 roach hydra at 15 min with 10-12 corruptors (with the economy back up to remax because you will always need it.) People saying "make 20+ corruptors"mean that you started to build them very early and did have time to saturate a 3rd and take a 4rth and go for some kind of 2 base all in, or that P macro is really crap, or something went wrong for him. And at the same time, you have not enough roach hydra, so if P is smart he will not wait for Vrays and just push you before with a huge stalker ball with 1-2 colossi and you just die because of your crappier eco. You see what I mean ? Your assumption is wrong because zerg cant just sit down and think of the best unit compo that he can achieve by 15mn unless P blindly goes for his build not punishing Z's lack of strong mid-game. I understood perfectly. The point is that this army won't be coming at you in 15mins off a 3-gate expand, and if a player attempts it they'll be very short on both void rays and colossi. Take a look at the game Idra and Artosis use as an example, which has been linked in this thread. The protoss is going for a forge fast expand and throwing up his nexus immediately in order to have the economy required for this build. Early pressure is not a danger. | ||
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Go0g3n
Russian Federation410 Posts
Also, Dimaga ordered those Corruptors in one bulk, right after ho scouted a mass of rays, rather than the 2-3 rays White-Ra was harassing ovies for the entire game. So, there's an economic mobility for Zerg. | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:50 Durp wrote: I'm not sure why Mutalisks aren't considered here. A protoss seeing spire tech may assume corruptor and continue void rays, which are decimated by mutalisks. The investment into phoenixs and/or stalkers required to counter mutalisks would make massing sufficient voidrays/colossi off of two bases almost impossible. Food for thought. Well, mutalisks are a ton of gas. Also, they are not that great in a straight up fight. They are very useful for harrass or in huge numbers (due to mobility). Randomly switching to mutas with the protoss going stargate seems like a very bad idea. They only have to warp in 1-2 rounds of stalkers and start pheonix, and they will be countering your mutas while using less min/gas. Also their army will perfectly counter yours to a point that zerg econ advantage probably wont keep up  But I'm no pro. 2200 master league | ||
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Obaten
United States730 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:55 Beef Noodles wrote: Well, mutalisks are a ton of gas. Also, they are not that great in a straight up fight. They are very useful for harrass or in huge numbers (due to mobility). Randomly switching to mutas with the protoss going stargate seems like a very bad idea. They only have to warp in 1-2 rounds of stalkers and start pheonix, and they will be countering your mutas while using less min/gas. Also their army will perfectly counter yours to a point that zerg econ advantage probably wont keep up But I'm no pro. 2200 master league But isn't is possible to just lead him off the techpath of the voidray/colossus with enough mutas to harass, and kill the stalkers with a good number of lings? | ||
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On February 16 2011 15:10 Obaten wrote: But isn't is possible to just lead him off the techpath of the voidray/colossus with enough mutas to harass, and kill the stalkers with a good number of lings? I mean, that sounds nice  But when are you going to find the stalkers alone with lings? Realistically, he'll have his army together except when he's chasing your mutas away and the collosi will melt the lings. Also, you shouldn't try to "throw him off the techpath" by getting a composition that he can easily counter and be way ahead. Just because he now has pheonix/collosi instead of voidray/collosi, that doesn't help. Actually you are now probably more fucked. I don't think the build is imbalanced, but that doesn't seem like a reasonable counter. Unless you pull it off in some really creative way that I can't think of right now | ||
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shinku)
Japan12 Posts
and now in this new episode they say "this new strategy is OVERPOWERED" ...double standard much artosis? | ||
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OptimusYale
Korea (South)1005 Posts
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
But as you need some proof about the 3-gate thing, here is my game : files.me.com/jeanlucmetz/b29ty5 I'm maybe 1mn late on the timings I describe because I applied pressure and P is 1 mn late as well as he needed to pull out immos, but you get the thing. If you dont believe me once again, I can post a replay of me being more passive and maxed at 15:00 or even before, but the outcome is exactly the same : my army dying at any stage of the game : when he had less colo/VR, I have less stuff as well. But if you think you can do better, just sent me a convincing replay proving me wrong... And dont tell me its not a pro game. One counterexample proves wrong infinite number of examples, and what I'm just saying is that 3 gate opening does not prevent a P to go this strat, letting him many other viable options in the same way, depending of how he scouts. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
The PvT episode was just an eyewash, with them concluding that there was nothing imbalanced in early game PvT, but anything involving zerg leads to the conclusion that the opposite race is imba. I'm sure that the next episode is going to be another round of TvZ with the conclusion that thors are imba. Stop, seriously. | ||
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DjayEl
France252 Posts
The assumptions of many of posters here a quite strange. I think Artosis and Idra understand the meta game pretty well, and are by no means biased. Do you really think zerg players want to create some fake imbalanced discussions in order to get their race buffed ? I love this game and Artosis does as well, and the last thing I want is SC2 become imbalance. Its not because I play zerg, it because no matter the race you play you dont want the game to die because the metagame being unwealthy. And I would argue to death to nerf zerg if they were really OP as well. How can anyone suppose it would not be the case of any of the pro gamers ?? | ||
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slothly
England20 Posts
On February 16 2011 15:54 DjayEl wrote: I think Artosis and Idra understand the meta game pretty well, and are by no means biased. Do you really think zerg players want to create some fake imbalanced discussions in order to get their race buffed ? Its difficult, if not impossible, to be truly objective when you are massively invested in the game, and the zerg race, as Idra is and Artosis was. There is no evidence for ZvP being P favoured at a tournament level, speculations on balance without such evidence are pointless; if all the Zergs are knocked out of GSL 5 by VR-Collosi play there will be a clear case for imbalance, until then no such case exists. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
Then another Zerg figured it out and it stopped being a problem. So this "I can't beat it, therefore it's unbeatable" logic is a little underwhelming to me at this point, especially when there's so much that didn't get considered. The Protoss Death ball, like close positions Shakuras rock-pushing, is all-in, because getting to 200/200 on upgrading tech units from 2 bases means staying on 2 bases for a very long time. If you kill the original army, you win because you should be way ahead economically. Any harass, even if it's cost-inefficient, makes the push that much more all-in. Artosis and Idra are making the assumption that Zerg needs to kill this in one army. Why? They dismiss Ultra/Bane/Ling/Queen, which kills the whole ground army, on the ground that the protoss has 10-20 VRs left. So? 20 VRs are not at all unkillable. Send your Ultras and Lings to deny a third, and remax with Hydras (no Colos are left) or Mutas to kill the VRs. Then the death ball is gone, and Protoss can't remax. Sure, it was wildly cost-inefficient, but you should have 4 or 5 bases to his 2 mined out bases. Will that work? Dunno. But it wasn't even considered. Even though it is acknowledged that a Zerg 200/200 army loses to a Protoss 200/200 army, it's never embraced as something to consider. There's a tacit assumption that Zerg is committed to the army mix he sends out initially. Why? Idra says Protoss can scout and make an army to counter your composition. But you have time to remax with a different composition, so I don't see why that's overly relevant. Edit: Numbers! 2 bases with 2 geysers each gives the protoss 10,000 gas. Idra said 5 Colos and 20 VRs, right? 2 Stargates = 300 20 Void Rays = 3000 Robo Facility = 100 Obs (For the scouting) = 75 Robo Bay = 200 Thermal Lance = 200 5 Colos = 1000 Even assuming your gateway army is entirely zealots, and you don't get any upgrades except the basically mandatory Thermal Lance, that death ball costs 4875 gas. If you make 1 sentry and one stalker (or 3 stalkers), you have used more than half the gas available to you. In a real game, of course, Protoss will get upgrades and a few more stalkers. So it's not that Zerg can remax "faster". Zerg can remax, period. Protoss can't get two 200/200 Colo/VR death balls off two bases, even given infinite time. You have to kill it once, and then you win, because the P can't do anything. So it doesn't matter if it takes 3 or 4 waves. It's not like he can kill you immediately after you lose the first army. Even if you make entirely corrupters and suicde them killing the Colos, you can remax with Roach/Hydra or whatever. | ||
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
on a serious note, the videos a bit too quiet, make the next one louder please, otherwise it was awesome | ||
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redux46
Canada92 Posts
Hopefully they take it up as a discussion for the next episode. | ||
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dc302
Australia576 Posts
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redux46
Canada92 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:55 Beef Noodles wrote: Well, mutalisks are a ton of gas. Also, they are not that great in a straight up fight. They are very useful for harrass or in huge numbers (due to mobility). Randomly switching to mutas with the protoss going stargate seems like a very bad idea. They only have to warp in 1-2 rounds of stalkers and start pheonix, and they will be countering your mutas while using less min/gas. Also their army will perfectly counter yours to a point that zerg econ advantage probably wont keep up But I'm no pro. 2200 master league Stalkers will definitely beat mutas cost for cost, but if the protoss has invested most of his gas into collosi and void rays (both weak against mutas) I don't think he'll have the gas left to make a switch in time to more stalkers/phoenixes. I mean, if toss is sitting back on two bases, zerg can be on 3 if not 4, more than enough to get mass mutas. Also, upgraded mutas are not that weak against stalkers in the first place. | ||
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schiznak
Australia258 Posts
On February 16 2011 15:38 OptimusYale wrote: Would mass Muta/corrupter work? I mean as they said,. they're investing so much gas are they really going to have that many stalkers in their army? Mutas to destroy the voids, corrupters to kill the collosi? I mean I'm only a lowly silver level player but thats the only thing I can think of. I have a couple of reps of me going mass muta corrupter against 3 base colossus void rays. I'll host them somewhere if anyone wants to see it. I had to take like 5-7 bases to match him. I usually had about 5-10 corrupters out at once just to stand between my mutas and his phoenixes and take all the shots. I won both games but he wasn't a fantastic player, he just had a fantastic build. | ||
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