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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 16:11 Ribbon wrote:
I'm not sure how much I agree with Artosidra here. Idra couldn't figure out how to beat marine SCV all-ins, and he couldn't figure out how to beat close positions ZvT on Shakuras, and he claimed both as auto-wins.
Then another Zerg figured it out and it stopped being a problem. So this "I can't beat it, therefore it's unbeatable" logic is a little underwhelming to me at this point, especially when there's so much that didn't get considered.
The Protoss Death ball, like close positions Shakuras rock-pushing, is all-in, because getting to 200/200 on upgrading tech units from 2 bases means staying on 2 bases for a very long time. If you kill the original army, you win because you should be way ahead economically. Any harass, even if it's cost-inefficient, makes the push that much more all-in.
Artosis and Idra are making the assumption that Zerg needs to kill this in one army. Why? They dismiss Ultra/Bane/Ling/Queen, which kills the whole ground army, on the ground that the protoss has 10-20 VRs left. So? 20 VRs are not at all unkillable. Send your Ultras and Lings to deny a third, and remax with Hydras (no Colos are left) or Mutas to kill the VRs. Then the death ball is gone, and Protoss can't remax. Sure, it was wildly cost-inefficient, but you should have 4 or 5 bases to his 2 mined out bases.
Will that work? Dunno. But it wasn't even considered. Even though it is acknowledged that a Zerg 200/200 army loses to a Protoss 200/200 army, it's never embraced as something to consider. There's a tacit assumption that Zerg is committed to the army mix he sends out initially. Why? Idra says Protoss can scout and make an army to counter your composition. But you have time to remax with a different composition, so I don't see why that's overly relevant.
Edit: Numbers!
2 bases with 2 geysers each gives the protoss 10,000 gas. Idra said 5 Colos and 20 VRs, right?
2 Stargates = 300
20 Void Rays = 3000
Robo Facility = 100
Obs (For the scouting) = 75
Robo Bay = 200
Thermal Lance = 200
5 Colos = 1000
Even assuming your gateway army is entirely zealots, and you don't get any upgrades except the basically mandatory Thermal Lance, that death ball costs 4875 gas. If you make 1 sentry and one stalker (or 3 stalkers), you have used more than half the gas available to you. In a real game, of course, Protoss will get upgrades and a few more stalkers.
So it's not that Zerg can remax "faster". Zerg can remax, period. Protoss can't get two 200/200 Colo/VR death balls off two bases, even given infinite time. You have to kill it once, and then you win, because the P can't do anything. So it doesn't matter if it takes 3 or 4 waves. It's not like he can kill you immediately after you lose the first army. Even if you make entirely corrupters and suicde them killing the Colos, you can remax with Roach/Hydra or whatever.
Right off the bat your argument is wrong. You assumed 2 rax is not a problem, but it is. It still is. It's even called garbage by SC2s lead balance director. You even assumed the reason they say its imbalanced is because they can't beat it! DID You even listen to the show? my god
You say Ultralisk Queen bane ling.. now tell me, how can you defend with just pure bane/sling all the way to ultra? If you do that, you'll outright die midgame. He sees you don't have a roach warren or a hydra den, he'll just literally walk to your base and you will die.
You made some bad assumptions. For instance you said "It's not like he can kill you immediately after you lose the first army." Err, yes, he can. Here's the scenario, he attacks with a death ball, you remove like 30 food and you lose 100 food. You remax with another 200/200 army.. 170 vs 200 food while he's at your doorstep? impossible.
Do you even play zerg or protoss?
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I don't understand why people are saying that going mutas is viable against a protoss that has double stargate up. It sounds ridiculous because it is. First off, if you consider resource for resource, a void ray will completely dominate a mutalisk. Only POSSIBLY in large numbers will mutas have any real effect, but you're already spending so much more than him. That's not even considering the possibility that he mixes a few phoenixes in there and the stalkers from his gateway army aren't firing at you the whole time.
Honestly I've had trouble with this myself and the only possible way seems to be to overproduce corruptors and try to hold off til you have brood lord tech. The Roach/Hydra army does fairly well against gateway so underproducing those is possible, but again, it's hard. Especially if he mixes one or two immortals in there. The roaches fall so fast.
Once you're up to brood lord tech, The only possibility I see is going pure broodlord/corruptor with roach to reinforce/defend.
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United States7483 Posts
I like how they state that heavy queen builds supposedly work, but then somehow forget that queens do very well vs. void rays (especially with transfuse), and that the queens also use their anti-air vs the colossi as well.
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They do well versus void rays in small numbers. When the protoss balls up, those transfuses won't matter much. They'll get 1 shotted by charged up void rays. That was their main argument if i remember correctly
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United States7483 Posts
But it's also not true, if there are that many void rays, you should have a TON of queens, and probably ground armor upgrades. Queens are very beefy units, and the queens have a very good range. And they said '10 queens vs. 2 star void ray'. Why stop at 10 queens? Keep building them. Yeah, after they're all charged, the void rays can kill queens fast, but your queens should do a lot of damage and allow the remax to be enough.
Queens also use their good anti-air attack vs. colossi too.
Mutalisks should be useful here too, surprisingly. Void rays suck at killing them, they suck really badly. Colossi can't shoot up, and stalkers suck at killing mutas too. Mixing in sentries or high templar/archons are really not much of an option considering how absurdly gas heavy this is. Note that the point isn't to straight up win cost for cost: protoss is turtling on two bases, zerg can and should be way ahead on econ. That means you can just hurl resources at them to beat them, and protoss can't really rebuild once they suffer heavy damage. Most of the arguments against mutalisks are based on this argument that void rays are most cost effective. Who cares about cost effectiveness when you're up on bases by a lot?
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I cant undestand why so many people seem to be giving some zerg advice or talking about X zerg unit dealing well with VR etc when they dont even seem to play the actual game. Perfect example with this remax thing when Idra and Artosis perfectly explains why remaxing is useles as you DONT deal any damage against the deathball, or with queen strat where the prrcisely explain why it does not work.
I'm... Im just amazed. You seem to make so precise assumptions that it is like you have tried this yet and it does work, as you dont even assume it just *MIGHT* be the case but are litterally telling us how to beat the deathball.
Please if you want to suggest anything, just provide us a real BO or a replay of you beating a good (master) Protoss with it and it would help. Just throw : "you can do this and that" does not serve any purpose.
Im really tired of theorycrafting guys who dont even play zerg : you described so WEIRD timings, you dont even see thats its impossible to pull off ? Mutas ? Wtf ?
Dont agree with the imba thing if you dont know, but dont think the opposite when you are clueless as well.
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On February 16 2011 16:57 Buruguduy wrote:
Right off the bat your argument is wrong. You assumed 2 rax is not a problem, but it is.
....What? I said Idra claimed SCV all-ins were unstoppable back when they plagued GSL 3, and then they were stopped and you didn't really see them in GSL 4.
You say Ultralisk Queen bane ling.. now tell me, how can you defend with just pure bane/sling all the way to ultra? If you do that, you'll outright die midgame. He sees you don't have a roach warren or a hydra den, he'll just literally walk to your base and you will die.
Then....get one? They're argument was that it was bad because it didn't kill the Voids. I countered that if you kill everything but the VRs you can remax with an army to kill the VRs, and then you win because Protoss is broke. This concept wasn't even considered. The ability to switch tech instantly is the most powerful ability in the lategame Zerg arsenal, and it wasn't even mentioned.
You made some bad assumptions. For instance you said "It's not like he can kill you immediately after you lose the first army." Err, yes, he can. Here's the scenario, he attacks with a death ball, you remove like 30 food and you lose 100 food. You remax with another 200/200 army.. 170 vs 200 food while he's at your doorstep? impossible.
1. If the protoss has a 200/200 army, and you have a single doorstep as a Zerg, you deserve to lose. You know the rock pushing on Shakuras? That was beat by Zerg realizing that losing a mined-out main at the 20 minute mark in exchange for the Terran being on two base that whole time was a wonderfully good deal for them, provided they simply rebuilt their tech. Same basic principle applies. You should have at least 4 bases, preferably 5, and he only has time to kill one of them. This applies triple on huge "protoss-favored" maps like Tal'Darim or Crevasse.
2. If the 30 food is the Colossi and you remax with Hydra/Roach, it's not impossible at all. You make the first army to punch a hole in his composition, then make the second to abuse the missing part of his army. The exact build has yet to be figured out, and I don't claim to have solved it, but it's a pretty basic concept. It's just like building Brood Lords to force Vikings, then going Ultra. You go one A to force composition B (in this case, by killing the undesirable parts of his composition), and remax with an army that counters B.
Do you even play zerg or protoss?
I'm a Zerg, yes. I'm not saying it's a perfect build or anything of the sort. I'm just saying it's a massively important concept that's being ignored.
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On February 16 2011 14:52 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 14:48 bovineblitz wrote:
While this build does look very very strong currently, I'm starting to feel the show is more QQ than anything.
I mean... at least back up what you're saying... how much merit am I going to give to two zerg players who are both known for complaining? Have to love the substance in your argument. Artosis and IdrA actually fill 30 min of discussion and you can only write 1 sentence to say they are QQing? Please post something that is actually useful to discussion. What builds or strategies can Z do to help delay or kill the deathball? How can they make it less QQ and more actual discussion in your humble opinion?
They can talk about more than the colossus for 3 entire episodes, for one.
For two, they spent so much time saying "new stuff seems impossible to counter, but the scene often figures it out" and now they're freaking out over how this build hasn't been figured out yet.
Seems very reactionary.
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On February 16 2011 17:22 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 16:57 Buruguduy wrote:
Right off the bat your argument is wrong. You assumed 2 rax is not a problem, but it is. ....What? I said Idra claimed SCV all-ins were unstoppable back when they plagued GSL 3, and then they were stopped and you didn't really see them in GSL 4.
wut
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if next episode isn't about one of zerg imbalance, this series is biggest hypocrite
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colossus/void rays so imba
Mod tngh512: can't win zerg
Mod tngh512 = DongRaeGuProS
That was the first thing he said when asked about balance. Not just Artosis and IdrA are having issues with it.
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Lol every episode is about toss... I never have won zerg with equal skill with this strat. Makes shit loads of corrupters, kill my shit then it's stalker vs roach and it's goodnight.
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On February 16 2011 17:26 sob3k wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 17:22 Ribbon wrote:On February 16 2011 16:57 Buruguduy wrote:
Right off the bat your argument is wrong. You assumed 2 rax is not a problem, but it is. ....What? I said Idra claimed SCV all-ins were unstoppable back when they plagued GSL 3, and then they were stopped and you didn't really see them in GSL 4. wut
Compare TvZs in GSL 3 to TvZs in GSL 4. How many times in GSL 4 does a Terran pull all his SCVs?
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On February 16 2011 17:22 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 16:57 Buruguduy wrote:
Right off the bat your argument is wrong. You assumed 2 rax is not a problem, but it is. ....What? I said Idra claimed SCV all-ins were unstoppable back when they plagued GSL 3, and then they were stopped and you didn't really see them in GSL 4. Show nested quote +You say Ultralisk Queen bane ling.. now tell me, how can you defend with just pure bane/sling all the way to ultra? If you do that, you'll outright die midgame. He sees you don't have a roach warren or a hydra den, he'll just literally walk to your base and you will die. Then....get one? They're argument was that it was bad because it didn't kill the Voids. I countered that if you kill everything but the VRs you can remax with an army to kill the VRs, and then you win because Protoss is broke. This concept wasn't even considered. The ability to switch tech instantly is the most powerful ability in the lategame Zerg arsenal, and it wasn't even mentioned. Show nested quote +You made some bad assumptions. For instance you said "It's not like he can kill you immediately after you lose the first army." Err, yes, he can. Here's the scenario, he attacks with a death ball, you remove like 30 food and you lose 100 food. You remax with another 200/200 army.. 170 vs 200 food while he's at your doorstep? impossible. 1. If the protoss has a 200/200 army, and you have a single doorstep as a Zerg, you deserve to lose. You know the rock pushing on Shakuras? That was beat by Zerg realizing that losing a mined-out main at the 20 minute mark in exchange for the Terran being on two base that whole time was a wonderfully good deal for them, provided they simply rebuilt their tech. Same basic principle applies. You should have at least 4 bases, preferably 5, and he only has time to kill one of them. This applies triple on huge "protoss-favored" maps like Tal'Darim or Crevasse. 2. If the 30 food is the Colossi and you remax with Hydra/Roach, it's not impossible at all. You make the first army to punch a hole in his composition, then make the second to abuse the missing part of his army. The exact build has yet to be figured out, and I don't claim to have solved it, but it's a pretty basic concept. It's just like building Brood Lords to force Vikings, then going Ultra. You go one A to force composition B (in this case, by killing the undesirable parts of his composition), and remax with an army that counters B. I'm a Zerg, yes. I'm not saying it's a perfect build or anything of the sort. I'm just saying it's a massively important concept that's being ignored.
Man i don't even know why i'm arguing or responding to you. i don't want to dissect your argument anymore because reading through it once made my head hurt. i mean "you should have at least 4 bases , pref 5"
i bet you're some low level plat zerg who doesn't understand the game at all
edit: oh i was right. you're just bad http://sc2ranks.com/us/2253926/Ribbon
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I actually tried against my brother on shakuras getting a reasonable late game situation with protoss at +3 weapons, +2 armour vs +3/+3 ranged/carapace zerg with +2 weapons air since we felt that was a good representation of a late game situation.
My brother was the protoss and he made 74 probes, 6 colossi, 12 voids and the rest of the supply was devoted to gateway units.
I made 74 drones 6 queens for 86 supply and the rest of the supply was devoted to army.
Keeping the same unit mix, I would just throw various army compositions against him to see how they fared.
Roach Hydra Corruptor: Gets melted, voids crush corruptors HARD and 6 colossi melt ground, especially with a few chargelots to tank for a few seconds. Voids in general will melt roaches after the corruptors go down and with a reinforcement pylon, it's literally impossible to hold after he melted my initial wave.
The only way it was possible to do well was to get an extremely open area and attack in from all sides, in the middle of shakuras.
Mass Muta: Works but assuming they have high templar, wouldn't work in a normal game(Getting 50+ banelings works to take out colossi if you want to go that route)
The only composition that worked reasonably well was to have around 30 roaches and 10 or so banelings along with infestors and corruptors
The banelings melt whatever chargelots there are and the roaches tank for a while the rest of your army does the work. The corruptors go to work as expected on colossi/voids and the infestors neural parasite. This works since if you have 6+ infestors, you take control of a sufficient amount of the protoss ball to make it implode well.
The main problem as I see it is how compact and efficient the protoss deathball is. A 200/200 deathball is about the size of a command centre, units that go in first are decimated pretty fast and everything gets to shoot while in other armies, it takes time for the whole army to get within range.
On the whole though, I think that making corruptors slightly better against air in general would help the situation. I'd like to keep the same damage vs colossi though since that aspect seems rather balanced to me.
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On February 16 2011 17:38 Buruguduy wrote:
Man i don't even know why i'm arguing or responding to you. i don't want to dissect your argument anymore because reading through it once made my head hurt. i mean "you should have at least 4 bases , pref 5"
Zerg do it against the mid-game tank push through the rocks on Shakuras, so I don't see anything silly with that statement.
Please, enlighten me with your wisdom. Why is getting a quick fourth the right answer to Shakuras mid-game rock pushing, but completely ludicrous for a late-game 200/200 Protoss push consisting of tech units?
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I think voidrays are actually strong against corruptors so.....i think mutalisks are the best counter here. Protoss will not have as much stalkers, and they do less damage against light.
Or can also go early hydralisk timing push before they get mass (since they will need lots of tech to get void/colossi
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Zerg qqs, because they need to get out of their comfort zone (macroing) and need to take action.
again, the Solution to this is attacking before the DB is complete.
Playing Colossus in PvZ imho is All-In, cause if you lose even 1 Colossus without it dealing cost efficient you fucking lose.
Roach is such a godly Early/Midgame Unit to deal pressure.
Zerg needs to trade armies, when they have armies that can fight cost efficient.
There are Timings to exploit that against Protoss.
Protoss can tell you the same, if i let the Terran get maxxed with Thors you fucking lose.
So the reason would be why does Z let P max? it is absolutely stupid.
A Protoss will always take longer to rebuild his army then a Zerg.
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Seriously?
3 Videos all complaining about protoss?
I was under the impression that this show was called "Imbalanced", not "Protoss is Imbalanced".
All they are doing at this point is fuelling the fire of nerf cries.
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On February 16 2011 17:32 shinku) wrote:
if next episode isn't about one of zerg imbalance, this series is biggest hypocrite
Please enlighten me in said zerg imbalances ?
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EPT
