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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 16 2011 18:00 Salvarias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 17:32 shinku) wrote:
if next episode isn't about one of zerg imbalance, this series is biggest hypocrite Please enlighten me in said zerg imbalances ?
except Colossus, protoss has nothing to deal with a maxxed upgraded burrow Roach/Hydra army.
The so called Deathball is one of the only solutions P has come up with recently to compete against a competent macro Zerg.
Be sure Protoss would like to expand as crazy as Zerg would, but if they do, they lose.
Z has a really Strong and solid Mid Game, they should use it.
and properly upgrading Zerg is a pain to deal with.
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On February 16 2011 18:03 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 18:00 Salvarias wrote:On February 16 2011 17:32 shinku) wrote:
if next episode isn't about one of zerg imbalance, this series is biggest hypocrite Please enlighten me in said zerg imbalances ? except Colossus, protoss has nothing to deal with a maxxed upgraded burrow Roach/Hydra army. The so called Deathball is one of the only solutions P has come up with recently to compete against a competent macro Zerg. Be sure Protoss would like to expand as crazy as Zerg would, but if they do, they lose. Z has a really Strong and solid Mid Game, they should use it. and properly upgrading Zerg is a pain to deal with.
storms kills hydras madly, and heard about mass forcefields ? als in a none micro battle a zealot wins over a roach (atleast in 1v1 so I know it's not a highly valid argument, just to point out it's strong, especialy if hydras are fleeing from storms)
beside collosus is easy enough to get, but it's hardly the only choice.
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CatZ style double Spire with Muta spam might be hilarious against Colossus/Void Ray. Crank out air damage and armour, since Mutalisks scale so well with damage and because Void Rays do such low damage against light.
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On February 16 2011 18:08 Salvarias wrote:
storms kills hydras madly, and heard about mass forcefields ? als in a none micro battle a zealot wins over a roach (atleast in 1v1 so I know it's not a highly valid argument, just to point out it's strong, especialy if hydras are fleeing from storms)
beside collosus is easy enough to get, but it's hardly the only choice.
yeah cause Storm is available in Mid game...
Colossus is the only cost effcient way to deal burrow Roach/Hydra in midgame.
Forcefields only buy you the time to get them.
If Colossus gets nerfed, (which i wouldn't even mind, i hate that unit)
Protoss needs a buff in Gateway Army.
P without AoE loses to both Midgame Armys of Zerg or Terran because Protoss ground army scales badly with its size and upgrades.
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Once again I think both Idra & artosis are wrong in their thinking process. Colossus Void Ray can be countered by roach hydra corruptor or muta corruptor if the protoss goes for colossus void ray ONLY with no gate units. Not to mention T3 units mix can be quite good against the protoss death ball (but I'm sure idra & artosis know that).
The build is unbalanced not because of the units, but because protoss can tech and expand easily (thanks to sentries) and zerg can't do shit about it. Void Ray and colossus are available around the 12th minute. The zerg here just can't go straight muta/corruptor because he would get rolled over by any gate push, his scouting can easily be denied, his tech path is so long (if you compare it to terran and protoss) that he can't research everything while protoss can go void ray colossus and still be safe. Look at Squirtle versus MvP during GSTL final: Squirtle is almost taking EVERY tech path possible, he doesn't care (and Artosis say something like "it's not a good idea to research everything") because he is safe anyway. That's the SC2 tech path for you, and that need a fix.
If you compare unit to unit, zerg is not weaker.
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On February 16 2011 18:18 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 18:08 Salvarias wrote:
storms kills hydras madly, and heard about mass forcefields ? als in a none micro battle a zealot wins over a roach (atleast in 1v1 so I know it's not a highly valid argument, just to point out it's strong, especialy if hydras are fleeing from storms)
beside collosus is easy enough to get, but it's hardly the only choice. yeah cause Storm is available in Mid game... Colossus is the only cost effcient way to deal burrow Roach/Hydra in midgame. Forcefields only buy you the time to get them. If Colossus gets nerfed, (which i wouldn't even mind, i hate that unit) Protoss needs a buff in Gateway Army. P without AoE loses to both Midgame Armys of Zerg or Terran because Protoss ground army scales badly with its size and upgrades.
im a patient person, but forcefields only being able to buy time ? are we talking about the same game here ...? and you can get templers early enough if you want to.
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On February 16 2011 18:08 Salvarias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 18:03 freetgy wrote:On February 16 2011 18:00 Salvarias wrote:On February 16 2011 17:32 shinku) wrote:
if next episode isn't about one of zerg imbalance, this series is biggest hypocrite Please enlighten me in said zerg imbalances ? except Colossus, protoss has nothing to deal with a maxxed upgraded burrow Roach/Hydra army. The so called Deathball is one of the only solutions P has come up with recently to compete against a competent macro Zerg. Be sure Protoss would like to expand as crazy as Zerg would, but if they do, they lose. Z has a really Strong and solid Mid Game, they should use it. and properly upgrading Zerg is a pain to deal with. storms kills hydras madly, and heard about mass forcefields ? als in a none micro battle a zealot wins over a roach (atleast in 1v1 so I know it's not a highly valid argument, just to point out it's strong, especialy if hydras are fleeing from storms) beside collosus is easy enough to get, but it's hardly the only choice.
Storm doesn't come out fast enough for a mid game hydra/roach push. The close position, Hydra/Spine push can really only be dealt with a quick Colossus with range. Force Fields only last you so long, in a big encounter and smart zerg will target fire the sentries, I've tried double forge gateway builds with late Colossus but it becomes incredibly hard to actually take a third, people laugh at Hydras off creep but when you don't have a Colossus, even slow Hydras are pretty powerful
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lf any pro replys or vods on this, want to check specific build orders.
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I am a patient person too 
There's no point in arguing with me, if you say that HTs are the way to go on 2 Base midgame.
There is a reason why Protoss don't do that, and that is the ability to easily out mass you and negate storm with burrow roaches. Hydras are on par with Stalkers, while costing less.
They already should have more fight supply than you, going into an hard exchange is always in favor of Zerg, cause he will be able to replenish alot faster than Protoss.
Again, i don't mind colossus nerf, but it also then needs a fix for Midgame Zerg roach/hydra pushes.
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Okay. I am also a bit disappointed that they didn't point out Mutas in any variant directly, but even a nab like me can see they imply it by saying that protoss has the "response-advantage" since they can two base it, and scout whatever zerg is doing. If zerg is mutaing, they just switch to stalker and still "two-base one-shots" zerg. Although i feel it is very dificult to deal with both voidrays and colossi, the early and mid game aggresion options for zerg is also not mentioned in this video. Sen's heavy roach play comes to mind to be aggresive against that second base. And since Idratosis mentions its an two base all in, i don't see why that isnt somewhat viable. At least i wish they could explain why that isn't viable.
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+ Show Spoiler +On February 16 2011 14:47 rS.Sinatra wrote:
However, since they specifically said they are talking about balance at the very top, lets see some games at the very top. On February 16 2011 14:50 Durp wrote:
I'm not sure why Mutalisks aren't considered here. A protoss seeing spire tech may assume corruptor and continue void rays, which are decimated by mutalisks. The investment into phoenixs and/or stalkers required to counter mutalisks would make massing sufficient voidrays/colossi off of two bases almost impossible.
Food for thought. On February 16 2011 14:52 Zealot Lord wrote:
... There's no replays no nothing... On February 16 2011 14:55 Beef Noodles wrote:Well, mutalisks are a ton of gas. Also, they are not that great in a straight up fight. They are very useful for harrass or in huge numbers (due to mobility). Randomly switching to mutas with the protoss going stargate seems like a very bad idea. They only have to warp in 1-2 rounds of stalkers and start pheonix, and they will be countering your mutas while using less min/gas. Also their army will perfectly counter yours to a point that zerg econ advantage probably wont keep up  But I'm no pro. 2200 master league On February 16 2011 15:10 Obaten wrote:
But isn't is possible to just lead him off the techpath of the voidray/colossus with enough mutas to harass, and kill the stalkers with a good number of lings? On February 16 2011 15:38 OptimusYale wrote:
Would mass Muta/corrupter work? I mean as they said,. they're investing so much gas are they really going to have that many stalkers in their army? Mutas to destroy the voids, corrupters to kill the collosi? I mean I'm only a lowly silver level player but thats the only thing I can think of. On February 16 2011 16:48 redux46 wrote:
Stalkers will definitely beat mutas cost for cost, but if the protoss has invested most of his gas into collosi and void rays (both weak against mutas) I don't think he'll have the gas left to make a switch in time to more stalkers/phoenixes.
I mean, if toss is sitting back on two bases, zerg can be on 3 if not 4, more than enough to get mass mutas.
Also, upgraded mutas are not that weak against stalkers in the first place. On February 16 2011 17:03 GQz wrote:
I don't understand why people are saying that going mutas is viable against a protoss that has double stargate up. It sounds ridiculous because it is. First off, if you consider resource for resource, a void ray will completely dominate a mutalisk. Only POSSIBLY in large numbers will mutas have any real effect, but you're already spending so much more than him. That's not even considering the possibility that he mixes a few phoenixes in there and the stalkers from his gateway army aren't firing at you the whole time. Lol... so this is the quality of Teamliquid.net now, huh? Don't bother thinking or providing evidence. Don't even bother reading a thread before posting - just type... I guess I will quote myself and repost, with some extra information.
TL;DR You should because this post answers a ton of questions; this post also provides REPLAYS of losing and winning against this alleged 'deathball' strategy.
These first two replays are examples with vortex, the last 3 with dimaga and white-ra are without vortex.
Here is a replay of the infamous 'deathball':
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140198-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
In this replay, it shows a decent macro game heading into the infamous death ball. This is without any mutalisk harass, just a nice decent macro game where protoss pushes around zerg until the heavy units come in. I think zerg thought he could outmacro protoss by expanding many times - in the end, that unit composition is EXTREMELY difficult to kill.
Something to note: the mothership is the cherry on top that makes this 'unbeatable', and without the vortex, I think zerg, with practice and defining build orders, can beat this build, like dimaga displayed on scrap station.
Here is a replay of beautiful mutalisk harass, stopping the build dead in its tracks:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140199-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
In this replay, the mutalisk timing was very good and forced protoss to build stalkers, or else risk being taken over with mutalisks. I believe Liquid'Tyler was commenting on this - not this specific replay - but about mutalisk harass, and with practice, 'unbeatable' builds can quickly fall apart.
Again, something to note: the mothership unit looks like a unit that can hard counter any army, just by using the vortex spell. I've seen the mothership drop a vortex on all races, all unit compositions, and then poop their own colossus, archons, and even voidrays into the vortex - coming out without losing a unit, while decimating whatever was in that vortex.
It would be nice if someone who is at least master or understands the game to comment on the mothership vortex spell, especially after watching the second replay. I understand the vortex was already modified by Blizzard once because of the FF glitch ( for those who don't know - before a patch, toss could FF around a vortex and 1 colossus would roast anything inside when they popped out). Well - it seems that with certain units, this can still happen - instead of FF you just shove all your crap in their with the zerg units. I really like the vortex and I don't want it to go away, but it would be nice to hear more about it, especially since the mothership is a common unit in top level play.
On February 16 2011 14:54 Go0g3n wrote:
Like several people pointed out - watch the latest Go4SC weekly Dimaga vs White-Ra games, Dimaga dealt with the 10-ray 4-Colossi + gate army fairly easy with ~12-14 corruptors +R/H and won the game., he lost the other two because he over-committed to 20+ corruptors. Plus, he never even tried to harass the Colo/Ray with his corruptors, which would've helped a bit.
Also, Dimaga ordered those Corruptors in one bulk, right after ho scouted a mass of rays, rather than the 2-3 rays White-Ra was harassing ovies for the entire game. So, there's an economic mobility for Zerg.
Good post. Here are the replays for those games:
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/43248 Dimaga loses over committing corrupter.
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/43247 Dimaga owning the alleged 'Death Ball'
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/43246 Regular game, irrelevant to discussion
p.s. the bold text is to 'pop out' the important information, as I know it is a chore to read large bodies of text; I don't mean to use bold text in bm in anyway.
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Its tough to deal with... but I think a lot of issues with this build are again down to the map sizes.. if you had the ability to reload a couple of times before you die, taking the whole map is possibly a viable counter.
Although I agree it is a pretty imbalanced build - If you macro perfectly you max just after 15 mins with a lot of VRs + collossus and a fair mix of gateway units thrown in. I have however lost to a good friend of mine who managed to reload his standard hydra roach corrupter army with 200 supply of mutalisks after taking 4 bases and droning up like crazy. Protoss will very rarely spread out their units doing this, and will have little to no upgrades when he pushes so mutas actually seem to do surprisingly well.
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agreed, thank you, i've tried everything versus this combo, my experience:
I once won with ling-baneling-infestor-hydralisk-ultralisk combo because i caught some VRs off position with a fungal and crushed trough the rest. Though this protoss player was pretty bad.
Ultra + queen rapes it badly. The problem is you will never be able to get out 20 queens and 15 ultras uncontested with proper upgrades, never ever ever. And if you just sac your normal army and try to remax with this, wll guess what, ultras build forever the P will be in your face, and you cant just pop queens out you had to have them building all game long. PLus you have to be aware of creepsreading constantly, if the P pushes your tumors back, sure, you have a bunch of queens to spread it, but that takes time even with 15 tumors, and you canot be agressive at all.
You have to get this out somehow, and haev the protoss throw his army at you then ragequit.
The mass corruptor + roaches is the build i found is the most solid as it mostly plays out as a normal build, and you can adapt to waht you see, but contrary to popular belief corruptors dont counter VRs. VRs are cost efficient vs corruptors. BUt if you overproduce corruptors, im talking about 30ish here, and try to kill them off then reinforce, that might work but if the ground army turns out to be not so weak you are absolutely screwed. You have to have a line of crawlers to hold the P off, but on most map there's no good place to put it, so you canot regroup your newly maxed army and use it efficiently, if you menage, you have about 50-50 chance then.
I have like 30% winrate with this maybe.
And i have never ever, ever, in my entire life beat this combo if there was a mothership, period. Once i just died with 9k-3k in bank as i had the whole map and maxed upgds, it didnt matter, he rolled trough my maxed army, then all my reinforcements just melted the same way.
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People don't understand that Muta IS NOT VIABLE on MANY many maps. Muta is sooooooo weak against any kind of 6gate push, spire is too long to build, cost too much gaz (basically all the gaz you have once lair is finished), and ling die so fast against zealot/sentry/stalker (force field lolz).
If mutas were available earlier, everything would be different... we could harass, delay colossus, delay void rays, weaken toss' economy...
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I still don't understand why it's apparently impossible for Zerg to get more bases and counter inefficiently/slow down the attack. It works against Terran on Shakuras for backdoor tank pushes. Why doesn't it work against Protoss?
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I have not played this Colossus Void Ray Death Ball and only played against it once, but from what i see in the discussion and see on streams (have watches a few games of Morrow yesterday) this is a very very strong combination that can be executed very easily.
To defeat this combination you have to play extremely well and really hit the right unit composition, which is hard for anyone who is not in the top50 zergs of the world, maybe even for those.
SO in this case i can understand that a feeling of imbalance can be seen here. I also like the suggestion of giving a buff to Corruptors, instead of nerfing the Death Ball.
I see two options:
1: Improving the DPS of Corruptors
2: Replacing the current spell by a spell that decreases the damage of one enemy unit by 20%
I think option 2 would be really nice, as the big problem of the Death Ball is the insane DPS.
With a Spell the Battle would require a bit more micro management but not be unfair for any of the two players in my opinion.
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On February 16 2011 18:44 Ribbon wrote:
I still don't understand why it's apparently impossible for Zerg to get more bases and counter inefficiently/slow down the attack. It works against Terran on Shakuras for backdoor tank pushes. Why doesn't it work against Protoss?
tanks dont move while sieged, and dont climb cliffs, and dont have VR support.
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Equal cost Chargelots/gateway does very well against bio ball if managed properly...
As a whole, this show keeps bringing up colossi in various forms. Maybe they should just accept that Colossi are part of some imbalanced in the game in some way because they force a very limited unit composition that is too easy to counter with the rest of the protoss force. It seems to be something that they bring up every episode, but only for PvZ even though it definitely applies to PvT as well.
In TvP high Colossi numbers not only mean no more bio but also no more hellions => Zealot/stalker portion can easily roll you because there aren't any units left that can defend against that comp.
They nerfed siege tank damage against light units so that the critical mass was much higher, maybe they will end up doing the something similar with colossi at some point. That would make colossi tech less of a determining factor for viable builds which might be necessary.
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On February 16 2011 18:44 Ribbon wrote:
I still don't understand why it's apparently impossible for Zerg to get more bases and counter inefficiently/slow down the attack. It works against Terran on Shakuras for backdoor tank pushes. Why doesn't it work against Protoss?
It's useless to expand if you can't saturate your bases... every zerg take the third early nowadays and if you take the time to fully saturate your third, most of the time you allow the protoss to make his death ball and he roll over you. Many times I have taken 5 bases against a 2 base turtletoss trying to go for a third, and i still get rolled over because of 200 useless suply. You have to be agressiv in the first 10 minutes and lower his army count, you can't play passiv.
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This is one of the only things I genuinly believe is broken.
The thing I hate about this composition is that the games get boring really really fast. The protoss always turtles up in their 2 base while putting millions of cannons at their third and entrance. Then when they have enough voidray/collosi/gateway units they just 1a.
There is just one battle. No other engagements. Just me coping with a super macro protoss while I cannot attack into their defensive position because of cannons, voidrays, collosus and forcefields. I love regular ZvP, with lots of battles, harrassments and all that. But Collosus/voidray is just lame to fight against, because all the protoss has to do is defend and if I don't get the most perfect counter, they win regardless of my macro/scouting..
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EPT
