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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
I don't think I heard this in the video, but what about corrupters into mutalisks? Or if they don't scout at all, just a ton of mutalisks?
From my understanding, the underlying problem is that the pile of corrupters sit there being useless after the fight and there isn't much to kill the ground army that's left over. I feel that a right mix of muta/corruptor will beat that army.
I also think that just simply going muta and harassing with it will stop this strategy dead in its tracks. Void rays without speed upgrade is fresh food for mutalisks, and it forces them to get phoenixes to stop the harass which stops void ray production. Then the corrupters will counter the army even better.
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On February 16 2011 19:21 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 18:54 WhiteDog wrote:On February 16 2011 18:44 Ribbon wrote:
I still don't understand why it's apparently impossible for Zerg to get more bases and counter inefficiently/slow down the attack. It works against Terran on Shakuras for backdoor tank pushes. Why doesn't it work against Protoss? It's useless to expand if you can't saturate your bases... every zerg take the third early nowadays and if you take the time to fully saturate your third, most of the time you allow the protoss to make his death ball and he roll over you. Many times I have taken 5 bases against a 2 base turtletoss trying to go for a third, and i still get rolled over because of 200 useless suply. You have to be agressiv in the first 10 minutes and lower his army count, you can't play passiv. That's a good answer. Considering how tight the protoss is stretching his gas, maybe more harassment is the answer, then? To try to prevent the protoss from getting the Deah Ball in the first place, or at least slow it down a lot? MrRicewife's post is interesting, though I can't watch the replays at this time. I will in a few hours. If you went for Mutas and did a lot of damage, that'd stop the build cold. If he saw and countered with 2-gate Phoenix....then he's cutting VRs from the eventual Deathball and spending a ton of gas. Hm. Maybe if you did something wacky, like 30 mutas or infestor play, something interesting would happen.... Contaminate? :3
The 'problem' with mutalisks is that they aren't good in a straight up fight. You don't even need the deathball to make a strong push vs a muta'ing zerg.
Mutalisks are GREAT harrassers. But like voidrays, collosi and phoenix, they cost a boatload of gas. Two stargates worth of phoenixes will be enough to kill mutalisks off when they are harrassing. Meanwhile the protoss can decide to just ditch the voidray-collosus plan and go mass gateways and kill your weaker army.
Another way of harrassment is obviously drops. Lets talk about a doom drop. You have your overlords filled with roach/hydra and drop into their main. Since the protoss will be on 2 base, he won't have a hard time getting to the doomdrop in time. When you drop, you drop your army one unit at a time per overlord. If you somehow managed to drop out of all your overlords simultaniously, you would drop a quarter of your army at a time.
Meanwhile, a big flipping collosus army is zapping at a quarter of your army. You're inside a restricted and tight space, since you're dropping in the mainbase, and your units can't reach the collosus due to its range and the possibility of sentries. This is thought without even having the possibility of the protoss actually scouting the doomdrop and intercepting it with voidray/phoenix.
Now the possibility of baneling drops, something I have experimented with a LOT. They are great versus unprotected mineral lines, note, UNPROTECTED. One or two cannons per mineral line is enough to screw your entire plan over. Not only do the cannons kill the overlords, but they distract the banelings into hitting into them instead of the probes because its an agressive structure.
Zerg harrassment is great when the protoss is on multiple bases, preferably 3 or 4. Before that, nydusworms, doomdrops, and to a lesser extent mutalisks, are fairly ineffective at inflicting massive amounts of damage needed to stall the protoss.
The only option zerg has is to build a 'death' army of their own to counter the opposing protoss deathball. However, the zerg 'death' ball is good at beating only your voidray/collosus strategy. Corruptors wont do jack if you decided to make a gateway army instead of voidray/collosus. And this is where the imbalance lies. Zerg HAS to counter the deathball of protoss if it even hints slightly at being built, but that deathball isnt the only army composition protoss has.
You can't deal with the deathball AND be safe from : 1robo 5gate stalker immortal, 5gate 1robo collosus stalker, 7gate push or 3base mass gateways. While these options are not all that hard to tech switch into, considering you already have one robofacility and a big ass defense at your entrance.
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On February 16 2011 19:37 Dezire wrote:
How about the zerg shouldn't be so macro oriented as they are now. when im laddering most zergs i play dont harass me at all. they just let me macro up my death ball, dont scout whether im going heavy collosi /VR/whatever and just assume they need their standard 200/200 roach/hydra/corrupt. wich is pretty much their dead if they dont have the exact right mix. its so easy to set back a toss with just speedling haras/bane drops or whatever.
toss used to have a hard time against Z because they let em macro, now every toss makes sure they put some pressure, so the Z cant macro, imo its Z's turn to return the favour and dont let the P macro up that easy
If you play in diamond or low master sure, but I'm pretty sure every damn zerg play agressiv at my level at least (2900 master). The problem is... what the hell do you do if the protoss don't go for a death ball ?
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On February 16 2011 19:45 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 19:37 Dezire wrote:
How about the zerg shouldn't be so macro oriented as they are now. when im laddering most zergs i play dont harass me at all. they just let me macro up my death ball, dont scout whether im going heavy collosi /VR/whatever and just assume they need their standard 200/200 roach/hydra/corrupt. wich is pretty much their dead if they dont have the exact right mix. its so easy to set back a toss with just speedling haras/bane drops or whatever.
toss used to have a hard time against Z because they let em macro, now every toss makes sure they put some pressure, so the Z cant macro, imo its Z's turn to return the favour and dont let the P macro up that easy If you play in diamond or low master sure, but I'm pretty sure every damn zerg play agressiv at my level at least (2900 master). The problem is... what the hell do you do if the protoss don't go for a death ball ?
deny a third and macro, if protoss isn't all-inning you (that Deathball is ALL IN)
setting up that 3rd is crucial for protoss to be able to reinforce units quick enough, while not getting out of minerals.
Realize that the Mainbase usually is mined out around ingame, a 2 basing Protoss thus only has effectivly one mining base against your 2-3-4 bases, denying and an 3rd expansion around 14-17mins, while trading armies will win you the game cause he will run out of minerals very soon.
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On February 16 2011 19:46 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 19:45 WhiteDog wrote:On February 16 2011 19:37 Dezire wrote:
How about the zerg shouldn't be so macro oriented as they are now. when im laddering most zergs i play dont harass me at all. they just let me macro up my death ball, dont scout whether im going heavy collosi /VR/whatever and just assume they need their standard 200/200 roach/hydra/corrupt. wich is pretty much their dead if they dont have the exact right mix. its so easy to set back a toss with just speedling haras/bane drops or whatever.
toss used to have a hard time against Z because they let em macro, now every toss makes sure they put some pressure, so the Z cant macro, imo its Z's turn to return the favour and dont let the P macro up that easy If you play in diamond or low master sure, but I'm pretty sure every damn zerg play agressiv at my level at least (2900 master). The problem is... what the hell do you do if the protoss don't go for a death ball ? deny a third and macro, if protoss isn't all-inning you (that Deathball is ALL IN) setting up that 3rd is crucial for protoss to be able to reinforce techunits quick enough, while not getting out of minerals.
I always deny the third and macro in every game against protoss. Still I also play agressiv with early roach push into roach hydra corruptor army (mainly).
Muta should be a good way to prevent protoss from maccroing too hard, but it's not, because it's too long to build, too heavy in gaz. Overall it weaken you too much.
Zerg is pretty weak agressiv wise but HAS to be agressiv against toss, that's what I'm saying more or less.
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this show should be renamed to "Daily zerg whining episodes"
you can simply counter this by mass roach/corruptor somewhere around 2:3 ratio, wipe high dps colossus/void and rest is piece of cake.
now theory crafting zerg would qq and go "corruptors dont attack ground" protoss gateway units r shit without colossus and will easily be beaten by mass roach in most realistic situations. protoss won't even have healthy amount of sentries either, due to high gas cost on colo/void unless zerg NEVER touched protoss and p still has full energy sentries which he had from beggining of the game (LOL)
is it easy to beat? no it's almost as hard as beating zerg roach/hydra/corruptor composition with almost always +1 +2base advantage
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ZeeRaX has been doing this since early fall last year. I really think he deserves some acknowledgement whenever this strategy is discussed.
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Why do people keep saying that the show is again about Protoss being imbalanced? Last week they were discussing that Protoss might have the short end of the stick when it comes to early game against TvP.
On top of that, 2 weeks have passed since their first episode on Collosi and back then this build wasn't nearly as popular as it is now. I like the show keeping up with new trends and this seems like a hot topic to me.
Another issue I have with alot of posts is that they base themselves on one or two games where a certain strategy seemed to have countered the deathball and exclaim: "See! It can be dealt with easily!" Something might work out beautifully one game, but does that mean it is a solid response to the deathball? Personally I feel like the Protoss has an easier time mixing his gameplan up then the zerg has and like Artosis pointed out alot of times the Protoss has an easy time scouting the zerg aswell.
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On February 16 2011 19:54 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
ZeeRaX has been doing this since early fall last year. I really think he deserves some acknowledgement whenever this strategy is discussed.
So did the american P Antimage, and Rotterdam showed me this i think in october too, and said it's really strong and he doesnt get why it's not more popular. It's not a new combo, probably these very builds were used already, but that's the same with everything.
2 months from now koreans might start using a lot of banes vs P, and then it would go viral, even though there are lots of foreigners who use that.
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As Zerg, I am not sure whether this is really a balance issue or not.
I have the feeling that this combination is a bit too easy to get for protoss and that this will create large problems in the lower leagues (<=diamond). Turtle, build up, attack-move....rebuild. The zerg players has to get a macro lead and the perfect unit counter to not get rolled, which is hard as lower level player.
At the highest levels though there might be ways to deal with it. I am quite sure that - as some others already mentioned - you have to add mutas to your corruptors. So: Mutas -> VR, Corr -> Collo, ground vs ground (and mutas are taking some shots from the stalkers as well).
But this is still not the end of the meta game. In the very late game, i am quite sure the optimal mix is more like this:
2-3 ultras to kill force fields and act as meat shield (need creep and must be at front)
zerglings: meat shield, later damage dealers (after force fields killed + collossi down)
3 broodlords to draw colo fire with broodlings (maybe healed by Queens)
corruptors -> Colossi
mutas -> VR
roaches
hydra
infestors would be great, but gas and micro time will be difficult to overcome
vs
Colossi (damage)
Void Rays
phoenix (to deal with mutas)
few (!) sentries (as FF are nullified by ultras), mainly for guardian shield
blink-stalkers (to kill brood lords e.g.)
zeals (meat shield)
2-3immortal to counter ultras
(archons?)
HT with storm would be nice, but gas.....
I think it will take another 1-2 years until we see that kind of combinations...but I am also quite sure that they will be there :-)
(you read it here first lol)
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Contaminate seems like a really good option here, mass queens, ultra etc... and contaminate the startgates and robo, those units takes a while to build, if you can delay them for even a minute, that is huge. You can protect your Overseers with a fast flyer like mutas, harass while contaminating, seems entirely possible. Dunno but I don't think everything has been completely ruled out yet, infestor stuff, maybe neural parasite.
Who knows...although I really do enjoy this show, they made a lot of good points and I know why people are frustrated. A little buff to corruptors doesn't sounds like too bad of an idea, I don't think it would affect ZvT too much, Vikings might have a harder time but they still have range and marines to protect them while they will still counter the transition into Broodlords. Doesn't sounds half bad.
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On February 16 2011 20:06 Drazzzt wrote:
As Zerg, I am not sure whether this is really a balance issue or not.
I have the feeling that this combination is a bit too easy to get for protoss and that this will create large problems in the lower leagues (<=diamond). Turtle, build up, attack-move....rebuild. The zerg players has to get a macro lead and the perfect unit counter to not get rolled, which is hard as lower level player.
At the highest levels though there might be ways to deal with it. I am quite sure that - as some others already mentioned - you have to add mutas to your corruptors. So: Mutas -> VR, Corr -> Collo, ground vs ground (and mutas are taking some shots from the stalkers as well).
But this is still not the end of the meta game. In the very late game, i am quite sure the optimal mix is more like this:
2-3 ultras to kill force fields and act as meat shield (need creep and must be at front)
zerglings: meat shield, later damage dealers (after force fields killed + collossi down)
3 broodlords to draw colo fire with broodlings (maybe healed by Queens)
corruptors -> Colossi
mutas -> VR
roaches
hydra
infestors would be great, but gas and micro time will be difficult to overcome
vs
Colossi (damage)
Void Rays
phoenix (to deal with mutas)
few (!) sentries (as FF are nullified by ultras), mainly for guardian shield
blink-stalkers (to kill brood lords e.g.)
zeals (meat shield)
2-3immortal to counter ultras
(archons?)
HT with storm would be nice, but gas.....
I think it will take another 1-2 years until we see that kind of combinations...but I am also quite sure that they will be there :-)
(you read it here first lol)
You understand that you can have a good mix of gateway units void rays and colossi at 15minute while it's IMPOSSIBLE to get ultras before 18 minutes (without dying) ?
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On February 16 2011 20:28 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 20:06 Drazzzt wrote:
As Zerg, I am not sure whether this is really a balance issue or not.
I have the feeling that this combination is a bit too easy to get for protoss and that this will create large problems in the lower leagues (<=diamond). Turtle, build up, attack-move....rebuild. The zerg players has to get a macro lead and the perfect unit counter to not get rolled, which is hard as lower level player.
At the highest levels though there might be ways to deal with it. I am quite sure that - as some others already mentioned - you have to add mutas to your corruptors. So: Mutas -> VR, Corr -> Collo, ground vs ground (and mutas are taking some shots from the stalkers as well).
But this is still not the end of the meta game. In the very late game, i am quite sure the optimal mix is more like this:
2-3 ultras to kill force fields and act as meat shield (need creep and must be at front)
zerglings: meat shield, later damage dealers (after force fields killed + collossi down)
3 broodlords to draw colo fire with broodlings (maybe healed by Queens)
corruptors -> Colossi
mutas -> VR
roaches
hydra
infestors would be great, but gas and micro time will be difficult to overcome
vs
Colossi (damage)
Void Rays
phoenix (to deal with mutas)
few (!) sentries (as FF are nullified by ultras), mainly for guardian shield
blink-stalkers (to kill brood lords e.g.)
zeals (meat shield)
2-3immortal to counter ultras
(archons?)
HT with storm would be nice, but gas.....
I think it will take another 1-2 years until we see that kind of combinations...but I am also quite sure that they will be there :-)
(you read it here first lol) You understand that you can have a good mix of gateway units void rays and colossi at 15minute while it's IMPOSSIBLE to get ultras before 18 minutes (without dying) ?
Yes, you are absolutely right. This is why I stated (and should have elaborated a bit more) that this is absolute late game and will be seen only if you survive the first stages. But at the 15 minute mark you won't see the given protoss unit combination either. So, at this point u need the mutas to counter the VR (if there are more >2-3). So, I guess it will take a few months until protoss notices that VR alone won't help and then they will start going in the direction I explained while slowly (or quick who knows) taking third etc.
This will give zerg the time to add ultras etc.
But as I said we won't see this for a while...
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I have a couple balance thoughs that i think would pretty much even the game for all three races.
Zerg.
-Movement speed upgrade for hydras, on and off creep. Hydras are too expensive and die too quickly, they lack the versatility and effectiveness of even cheaper units like stalkers, marines or marauders.
-Increase range by 2, so they're not fragile and can fight off colossi and tanks better (with marine balls of death).
Terran
-Mule coldown of 20 seconds (before you can use it again) per command center. This would punish terrans for not using their command center energy, rather than provide an unfair advantage that allows the terran to even send most of his scvs to atack with a decent economy, or even lessen the serious damage losing alot of scvs could deal. Comparing it with zerg is unfair considering zerg needs larvae to produce attacking units, so if you lose alot of drones and are forced to refill them asap, you're not only losing mineral time, but your army will also be considerably shorter. Late game it would balance the building of command centers to drain mineral patches almost instantly with mass mules, this has been used and abused by players like MVP and Boxer, and its obviusly pretty strong.
Protoss
they're good as they're right now if both those changes above are made, cos i think mech play late game is actually pretty strong vs protoss if the map is balanced enough (bases not too spread, map too big for terran to properly defend and atack).
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The use of the video is too minimal here in my opinion. I'm watching two, yet super handsome, nerds on a couch with a laptop talking for 30 minutes.
What the 'image' can be used for:
- ingame examples of what they're talking about. Replays/vods/screenshots.
- wordpad written facts
- a big board with idra drawing stuff out.
- MSpaint with artosis colouring in idra's drawings. -> see day9.
- idra wearing a hydralisk suit and showing us how slow he is off creep.
O.K. I needed amazing support to back up my opinion and I know the last two examples are amazing so hopefully I don't get a ban.
What I'm trying to say here is: a picture tells a thousand words. I needed to backup my opinion. You need to backup yours. With images.
and last but not least. I enjoy you two talking about this subject so - Thanks!
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i wonder why everyone tryes corrupters. I didn't experienced that build that often nor on high level. But i would go for hydras so he feels save in his build and i can block his scouting possibilitys a bit and encourage him going for his build more, meanwhile i would stockpile some gas and larva for a high ammount of mutas and a few corrupters, in case of phoenix and for another reason. Anyway if the toss overcommits on his voidrays and colossi, It should be okay to send in an overlord cloud with the corrupters and contanimate the colossi, then send in the muta cloud to snipe the colossi, while the overlords will get some hits for you (there should be overmins for extra ovis, so you don't get supply blocked), the follow up should be hydras, so corrupters and muta deaths should become hydras (if enough colossi died that is). The overlord cloud should move behind the toss army and spread creep, so once the colossis are down hydras will have enough creep to hit and run and to chase down everything. and if he retreats once the colossi are down you can snipe more voidrays with your Mutas and are back at 0 while he will have to get new bases.
But because its so gas heavy i guess you need atleast 5-6 gas.
Its a bit of a Mind game, but the mutas could even force him to stay inbase a little while and if he goes for the base trades your mutas are fast enough at home.
getting mutas seems atleast better as to get a unit that is directly contered by one unit already out by the opponent.
its only a theory more or less because my opponents lack the understanding and the flexibilty to adapt the builds they stole from pro gamers, while i lack the mechanics (apm and to easy stressed out). (only platin/diamond region dependend of my race)
PS: watched this for the first time, and i thought it would be a bit different hehe. But i really liked it.
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The other night, I was watching MorroW's stream and he got raped by Collosus/Voidray. MorroW had 5 bases, creep was on two-thirds of the map. The other 3 bases were occupied by the protoss. Morrow threw everything he had: corruptors, roaches, hydras, attacking 2 fronts at the same time, trying to pincer the protoss.. Morrow tapped out..
As a zerg player myself, I couldn't believe how a 200/200 army could be obliterated every 2 minutes by void rays and collosi. It was excruciating to watch.
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I've read a lot of the responses in this thread and quite a lot of them seem to have been posting without fully thinking about what implications are.
A lot of people seem to be saying mutalisks a lot as a standard theme. The problem with mutas is that the protoss will also be scouting the zerg to see how they want to try to beat the deathball and if they notice their opponent going mutas they stop voidray production and build a few pheonix or stalkers thus countering the mutas.
I think a lot of people are just imagining in their head 20VRs 4 colosus xxx gateway units and going yes this is how i would counter that without considering the fact that protoss does not need this exact combination, and that they can tweak their deathball to their opponent and still be as devastating.
Also a lot of people seem to be disregarding the fact that Artosis has beaten many, many zergs whom he would probably agree that they are better than him with this strategy and has basically not lost with it.
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On February 16 2011 21:50 EnTaroAdun411 wrote:
The other night, I was watching MorroW's stream and he got raped by Collosus/Voidray. MorroW had 5 bases, creep was on two-thirds of the map. The other 3 bases were occupied by the protoss. Morrow threw everything he had: corruptors, roaches, hydras, attacking 2 fronts at the same time, trying to pincer the protoss.. Morrow tapped out..
As a zerg player myself, I couldn't believe how a 200/200 army could be obliterated every 2 minutes by void rays and collosi. It was excruciating to watch.
Give MorroW some time and he might figure out how to deal with this. It hasn't been popular for too long. Look at how GSL level protoss got owned by early marauder pressure in s1/s2.
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On February 16 2011 22:00 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 21:50 EnTaroAdun411 wrote:
The other night, I was watching MorroW's stream and he got raped by Collosus/Voidray. MorroW had 5 bases, creep was on two-thirds of the map. The other 3 bases were occupied by the protoss. Morrow threw everything he had: corruptors, roaches, hydras, attacking 2 fronts at the same time, trying to pincer the protoss.. Morrow tapped out..
As a zerg player myself, I couldn't believe how a 200/200 army could be obliterated every 2 minutes by void rays and collosi. It was excruciating to watch.
Give MorroW some time and he might figure out how to deal with this. It hasn't been popular for too long. Look at how GSL level protoss got owned by early marauder pressure in s1/s2.
people need to stop comparing mid/lategame situations to earlygame stuff.
you can solve most earlygame situations with a decent build. and there are like almost no limitations to what you can do and experiment with.
mid/lategame situations are a different story. there is no magic "oh cool if i have X out at Y time im perfectly safe" thing to figure out. ofcourse sometimes still some tools just arent used(see the stargate play which just now is fully explored by P) but this mostly doesnt apply to Z cause of the low number of options.
also tbh P gameplay until like 1-2 months ago was TERRIBLE. now they finally noticed that they dont have to do random allins evrygame but actually can win evryone with macro/lategame styles. ofc other races too evolved quite some since that but P is like a totally different race nowadays.
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EPT
