EPTIf you've watched NrGViBE (all killed miniguns old team forgot what it's called) he's used baneling drops successfully against Protoss..
VoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 22
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
|
sykBelieve
22 Posts
If you've watched NrGViBE (all killed miniguns old team forgot what it's called) he's used baneling drops successfully against Protoss.. | ||
|
DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On February 16 2011 23:31 dicex wrote: I truely agree with Artosis and Idra about the Protoss ball of death. I may get more whining for this, but a 200 supply Protoss army with colossus is much too strong. The problem is that most (preferrably protoss) players instantly call it whining when you start talking about imbalance. I think people with equal skill should have about equal chances to win when playing against each other. This is not the case in current ZvP. Also, I think a show about roach rushes or imbalances in ZvZ games (yes, there are problems with ZvZ...) would be nice. Idra and Artosis could do that too, I think they have enough experience to talk about things from an objective point of view. Actually IdrA has said that he really likes the state ZvZ is in. Personally I think ZvZ is awesome, and as long as fungal growth remains devastating against mutas, that will probably remain. I will say that ZvZ takes a lot of getting used to, because of the weird dynamic with larva/units vs. opponent's larva/units. I haven't really figured it out yet. | ||
|
KoKoRo
United States186 Posts
Zerg is my off race and I'm a Master's Terran and many Protoss don't actually know how to deal with Nydus worms that don't pop up in their main or natural. Nydus worms just give the Zerg so much map control with being able to safely take island expos and what not. Yeah a Protoss can hear when you're taking an island but you get 2 Nydus worms continuously popping out canals I don't see what the problem could be. Even poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at. I also think Nydus Worms should get a buff allowing them to spit units down cliffs as long as it leaves them vulnerable while spitting to the low ground. Overseers are way undervalued. A lot of the time people are just using them to scout. 2 or 3 Overseers isn't an investment and could still cause problems for people by contaminating production, and with Speed upgrade Stalkers need blink to deal with them if you're continuously stopping Stargates from producing. I don't suggest end all be all ideas here but people should still use the options they have available to them. | ||
|
Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
Some people think phoenixes counter mutas - they don't en masse. Mutas deal splash, sentries aren't mobile air units with guardian shield everywhere, zerg is usually running on at least one additional base, so the trades are usually even - which favor the zerg player. | ||
|
Chylo
United States220 Posts
On February 16 2011 23:40 KoKoRo wrote: What if Zergs starting using Overseers to slow down colossi/Void Ray production or Nydus Worms to go around the Protoss army? Zerg is my off race and I'm a Master's Terran and many Protoss don't actually know how to deal with Nydus worms that don't pop up in their main or natural. Nydus worms just give the Zerg so much map control with being able to safely take island expos and what not. Yeah a Protoss can hear when you're taking an island but you get 2 Nydus worms continuously popping out canals I don't see what the problem could be. Even poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at. I also think Nydus Worms should get a buff allowing them to spit units down cliffs as long as it leaves them vulnerable while spitting to the low ground. Only a terran can think like this. Do you think all these nyduses "poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at" are FREE? Ever checked the gas cost on nydus? And then continuously popping out canals? Seriously, only a terran could think like this. Do you honestly think the zerg DOESN'T know where their army is? The problem is, when they actually come slaughter you with their army and now you've got 10 less corruptors because you've been "continuously popping out canals" and you die instantly. A single zealot can prevent any canal getting remotely close to their main or natural. | ||
|
ALPINA
3791 Posts
On February 16 2011 23:37 sykBelieve wrote: Why do people say that it's so easy to make phoenix AFTER you've made Mutas... Corrupters tank Phoenix so hard it's not even funny, not to mention Phoenix are useless against ground, specifically Roaches.. Zergs can produce units at a much faster rate, only a few Corrupters to make Phoenix useless.. If you've watched NrGViBE (all killed miniguns old team forgot what it's called) he's used baneling drops successfully against Protoss.. Phoenix are freaking awesome vs. ground. In some circumstances they are better vs. ground than mutas, because they disable the target. | ||
|
DjayEl
France252 Posts
A single question : do you know about the 6 gate push ? It seem also that a lot of posts that claim to be "i play both P and Z" seem to be disguised "i only really play P posts and dont want anyone claim my race is OP". Are you really pleased with playing an imbalanced strat ? Why is it for, just pumping your stats ? I may agree 2 pgms playing zerg may be biased, vut what about non pro P gamers ? Actually between two different biased pov, I personnaly am more intended into belive the pro one. | ||
|
BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 16 2011 23:45 Antimage wrote: Maybe next time the show should discuss the power of muta/ling (infestor) in PvZ? With a muta-based army (not just as harassment/transition units), you can basically keep the protoss player on 2 bases for a while, and do damage to their economy as you fly back and forth. Protoss is stuck getting armor upgrades and heavy blink stalkers, while you are free to roam the map. If the P player chooses to still go for the VR/colossus/stalker build, mutas do VERY well versus this and the Z player will already have upgrades and a sufficient number to take this on. Some people think phoenixes counter mutas - they don't en masse. Mutas deal splash, sentries aren't mobile air units with guardian shield everywhere, zerg is usually running on at least one additional base, so the trades are usually even - which favor the zerg player. some key stuff i think just from reading your post: phoenixes will shut down all harrass phoenixes will give complete mapcontrol till infestors are out (and you need tons of gas for mass mutas,infestors and upgrades) no lategame power at all with HT tech hardcountering evry single unit you have (storm >>> mutas& lings, feedback > infestor, archons+zeal> mutaling) to a point where 2 well placed storms can destroy half of your army and thousands of resources. granted i havent seen or did full muta play in ages but it sounds fragile and you still have to deal with all the normal P builds which can be hard with mutas . | ||
|
FrostOtter
United States537 Posts
On February 16 2011 23:56 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: granted i havent seen or did full muta play in ages but it sounds fragile and you still have to deal with all the normal P builds which can be hard with mutas . Full muta play isn't fragile to really anything toss can throw except for storm or cloaked VRs/stalkers. The problem, of course, is staying alive long enough to get enough mutas, but P players have to have a significant numerical advantage on mutas (or outmicro at very close numbers) to beat mass muta. | ||
|
Ssoulle
United Kingdom149 Posts
Void Rays are only good when they are charged, so why not force them to dis-engage somewhere, then ambush them un-charged? Retreat again when they are charged up, you have the most mobile army in the game ? Maybe some Muta harass or something ? Im not a Zerg player, but it just seems people are giving up too easily on this and resorting to balance whining. Maybe Muta with a couple of Corruptors just to cast Corruption ? You almost couldn't pick 2 to more gas heavy units. What about constantly destroying gas gathering buildings with Mutas ? Surely the Protoss would have to abandon this strat and dumb their minerals. A critical mass of properly controlled Mutas that retreat when they are supposed too is very difficult to beat. I really don't want to label anything as balanced or unbalanced, just try to come up with suggestions with what we already have. | ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 16 2011 23:21 ejozl wrote: So wait.. i go 2 stargates 1 robo colossus and 6 gateways on 2 base? The Voidray Colossus ball is like the infestor/broodlord composition as Zerg vs Terran, what you do to counter it, is trading units before he gets a too unbeatable army. 1 stargate 1 robo 5 gateway, with constant use of chrono on stargate & robo and not loosing any void ray or colossus (which implies using meat shield properly) is EASILY doable on 2 base, and you can also pretty easily secure a 3rd at 13-15 minute (two colossi should be out). infestor broodlord has nothing to do with that, sorry. Broodlord are around the 18th minute mark, how can you compare it to a a unit mix that you basically can have at the 12th minute mark ? Not to mention broodlord can be counter with blink stalker or void ray, two units that you easily have BEFORE great spire. Corruptors can't really be changed in my opinion. They are Zergs air counter for Carriers, the Mothership and unintentionally, Phoenixs. If they were changed to deal +Armoured damage, they would break Protoss air. Something else would have to be taken away from them and therefore another hole would appear. Void Rays are only good when they are charged, so why not force them to dis-engage somewhere, then ambush them un-charged? Retreat again when they are charged up, you have the most mobile army in the game ? Maybe some Muta harass or something ? Im not a Zerg player, but it just seems people are giving up too easily on this and resorting to balance whining. Maybe Muta with a couple of Corruptors just to cast Corruption ? You almost couldn't pick 2 to more gas heavy units. What about constantly destroying gas gathering buildings with Mutas ? Surely the Protoss would have to abandon this strat and dumb their minerals. A critical mass of properly controlled Mutas that retreat when they are supposed too is very difficult to beat. I really don't want to label anything as balanced or unbalanced, just try to come up with suggestions with what we already have. Muta are not viable, get your fact straight. Going muta is instant loss against a 6gate push, instant loss against any kind of stalker + sentries ball. And all that is actually below colossi & void ray in the tech tree. Don't forget protoss can scout easier than zerg. There is reason why nobody go for straight muta. Look at July vs Squirtle for exemple, July built a roach warren before going to muta. Spire is so damn long to build, so gaz heavy, you cannot have it in time to make damage before having any kind of deadly push available from the protoss. | ||
|
BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
On February 17 2011 00:02 FrostOtter wrote: Full muta play isn't fragile to really anything toss can throw except for storm or cloaked VRs/stalkers. The problem, of course, is staying alive long enough to get enough mutas, but P players have to have a significant numerical advantage on mutas (or outmicro at very close numbers) to beat mass muta. early game you are fragile to number of builds. you said it with "problem staying alive enough". and lategame P doesnt need superior numbers. you need storm. a single storm can roast dozens of lings and deal hundreds of dmg to your mutas. hell take it to the ridiculous level lategame and add a mothership. you pretty much have to surround/box mutas over the P ball. one toilet and your whole army evaporates doing nothing at all. thats what i meant with fragile.less solid then roach/hydra openings, vulnerable to all the standart timing stuff Ps do vs muta Z since ages and ends up with a army that can be utterly destroyed by HT tehc lategame. and its unlikely that you can end it early. maybe im totally wrong. but from my expirience(granted i rarely play Z/P atm) i dont see how this could be a solid strat. | ||
|
Holes
Canada26 Posts
Mutalisk harass forces either Phoenix and/or Stalkers which slows down the scary deathball. Depending on the map, Lings can mess with the expansion Protoss is trying to secure. That forces sentries, slows/stops tech. Now he needs to produce Stalkers/Phoenix to not lose to Mutas, and Sentries to protect his expansion. Obviously Muta/Ling, as always, sucks in a straight up fight. But it allows you to get ahead of the curve. If he commits to teching to 2 trees (700/500 for buildings) + making the most expensive (gas intensive) Toss units there will be a point in time where you can kill Protoss straight-up. This show seems to be a vessel to plug Zerg buffs, as everyone has feared. I was really liking most of the discussion up until this episode. Thanks for the work, but come on. Edit: This thread is long, but I've been reading more... Muta/Infestor is gas heavy, but pumping Colossus (300/200) and 2stargate Void Ray (250/150) is just as gas heavy, and the Toss is stuck on 2 base until blink stalkers/storm. The Phoenix switch to counter Muta is still gas heavy (150/100)... and teching to all 3 trees takes a lot of time and gas. Every time I see a BO suggested that could counter this, someone say 'Oh 6gate owns that'. Of course there's a counter to a set BO, including Colossus/Void Ray. If the Protoss deathball is so good, why haven't they been representing like Terran in the GSL? There are a few topics showing Zerg and Protoss fairly even in Tournament showings (Zerg over Toss in GSL. Toss over Zerg in TL), then Terran dominating everywhere. The reason is Zerg AND Protoss don't have AMAZING answers to every BO. But we get by with what we have. This is one BO that will probably become standard for Protoss off 2base, because it is good. But it will be figured out. Probably already has. | ||
|
Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
| ||
|
aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
| ||
|
Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first. Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. | ||
|
WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote: Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing. If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first. Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. If you let a zerg go to muta off 3 base, then pardon my harsh language, but you sucked. On most of the maps, you just CANNOT go muta ling, you die way before (sure if the toss stay stuck to his idea of death ball and refuse to switch to more agressiv play). | ||
|
Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 17 2011 00:14 Holes wrote: I'm no pro, but Muta/Ling seems like a decent strat vs. this. Mutalisk harass forces either Phoenix and/or Stalkers which slows down the scary deathball. Depending on the map, Lings can mess with the expansion Protoss is trying to secure. That forces sentries, slows/stops tech. Now he needs to produce Stalkers/Phoenix to not lose to Mutas, and Sentries to protect his expansion. Obviously Muta/Ling, as always, sucks in a straight up fight. But it allows you to get ahead of the curve. If he commits to teching to 2 trees (700/500 for buildings) + making the most expensive (gas intensive) Toss units there will be a point in time where you can kill Protoss straight-up. This show seems to be a vessel to plug Zerg buffs, as everyone has feared. I was really liking most of the discussion up until this episode. Thanks for the work, but come on. You still would have no answer for the colossus, all you would do is force him into stalker/colossus/phoenix/sentry which is going to wipe the floor with muta ling. He doesn't even have to chance tech trees. Phoenix do not just keep toss from losing to muta, they chase down and destroy the muta ball. | ||
|
FrostOtter
United States537 Posts
On February 17 2011 00:12 BeMannerDuPenner wrote: early game you are fragile to number of builds. you said it with "problem staying alive enough". Yes, which is why you don't open muta. Because why build mutas until you see what they are building? Zerg's strength is being able to switch tech, so if you open standard and keep your eyes open, you should be fine. and lategame P doesnt need superior numbers. you need storm. a single storm can roast dozens of lings and deal hundreds of dmg to your mutas. But storm is going to be hard to have with a colossi/VR composition-- remember, that's the strat we are talking about, not going mass muta just for the hell of it. hell take it to the ridiculous level lategame and add a mothership. you pretty much have to surround/box mutas over the P ball. one toilet and your whole army evaporates doing nothing at all. Which is why you stay awake and micro in such situations. You shouldn't be a-moving, anyway. thats what i meant with fragile.less solid then roach/hydra openings, vulnerable to all the standart timing stuff Ps do vs muta Z since ages and ends up with a army that can be utterly destroyed by HT tehc lategame. and its unlikely that you can end it early. Again, you open solidly with roach/hydra, and transition into muta. The hydras can even buy you time against the VRs if there aren't a lot of colossi on the field yet. And if the ground army is too terribly small, you can just run up to the colossi and focus them down. maybe im totally wrong. but from my expirience(granted i rarely play Z/P atm) i dont see how this could be a solid strat. Because you are looking at it from the perspective of just "go muta," from the very start, as opposed to transitioning to muta when appropriate. Especially if you were going roach/hydra and the P player decided to build more colossi than he should have, you are going to own him. Anything that can't target air is just going to make muta all the more powerful-- and mutas aren't as fragile as units as people think. I mean, sure, against marines I would rather send my drones than mutas, but against stalkers or VRs mutas are fine. | ||
|
Antimage
Canada1293 Posts
On February 17 2011 00:20 WhiteDog wrote: If you let a zerg go to muta off 3 base, then pardon my harsh language, but you sucked. On most of the maps, you just CANNOT go muta ling, you die way before. They make mutas off 2 bases and while ur defending them they expand again. Just to clarify. The point is that P wouldn't be able to go VR/colossus AND secure a 3rd AND defend your harassment. | ||
| ||
