Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban.
On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote: Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them.
So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas.
Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes?
Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough.
If the zerg is forced to attack to kill the colossi, then there is no reason for the zerg to "leave" the colossi and chase the phoenixes when the phoenixes run. The phoenixes either have to stay and protect the colossi, or can run and try to kite the mutas. Either way, the mutas should just stay with the colossi, because then they either get to kill the colossi or, if the P player does engage, get to kill the colossi and the phoenix.
Or, of course, throw some infestors in.
Or he could just retreat the colossus to his canons and then hunt down the muta ball until it's dead.
Lol or he could just retreat into the safety of his 100 dark templar and 100 HT with storm. Where are you getting cannons from? Stop throwing out random scenarios, we are talking about composition v. composition, not a bunch of scenarios that will change game to game and be specific to a particular game between two particular players.
...a forge FE is the normal way to start this build...
On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote: Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them.
So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas.
Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes?
Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough.
If the zerg is forced to attack to kill the colossi, then there is no reason for the zerg to "leave" the colossi and chase the phoenixes when the phoenixes run. The phoenixes either have to stay and protect the colossi, or can run and try to kite the mutas. Either way, the mutas should just stay with the colossi, because then they either get to kill the colossi or, if the P player does engage, get to kill the colossi and the phoenix.
Or, of course, throw some infestors in.
Or he could just retreat the colossus to his canons and then hunt down the muta ball until it's dead.
Lol or he could just retreat into the safety of his 100 dark templar and 100 HT with storm. Where are you getting cannons from? Stop throwing out random scenarios, we are talking about composition v. composition, not a bunch of scenarios that will change game to game and be specific to a particular game between two particular players.
Seriously if you think muta can do anything against phenix/sentries/stalker, then the discussion is useless. If you make a full muta ball from 4-5 bases, sure I agree with you. But that kind of muta heavy play is very fragile until late late game, when you have at least 6+ gazer.
After reading more comments in this thread, maybe it's a macro complex. There's probably a 2 base Zerg timing push that can stomp this build. Blah blah blah what if he doesn't go it, what if he does? The point is maybe there is an attack before he gets mass colossi that deals with this build and possibly other Protoss builds.
Zerg 2 base play isn't weak in any standards, people just assume the race is weak because, "The pros say so". If you're a 2 basing Zerg the most you have to worry about is them getting their natural up and saturated. With this logic you're still ahead of them by 1 base. Albeit you're 2 basing hardcore.
People need to be more creative with their play. Mechanics only style of play is boring and uninteresting to watch. I have a harder time dealing with Randoms that get Zerg because they do things a straight up Zerg player wouldn't do. Whether they win or lose it forced me to play by their rules.
My only ideas are that the Zerg player 2 bases hard enough to kill the expansion, if they can't they prepare for the worst and get as much scouting information as possible. On a map like Shakuras 2 basing could be hard because the natural is so easy to defend and with force fields being as powerful as they are it could make for a hard time on any map. The only unorthodox way to deal with Force Fields that I know of is to burrow and hope they don't have any obs to pick off units.
That said, I may be thinking of a build that requires a FE and assumes you know how to protect it easily and cost efficiently.
On February 16 2011 23:56 DjayEl wrote: Why do people dont go through the entire topic. We already discussed mutas and the still is P players continuously spamming redundant posts about mutas and how awesome they are supposed to be. Thats how threads go hundred pages and no one is really able to read them any more.
A single question : do you know about the 6 gate push ?
It seem also that a lot of posts that claim to be "i play both P and Z" seem to be disguised "i only really play P posts and dont want anyone claim my race is OP".
Are you really pleased with playing an imbalanced strat ? Why is it for, just pumping your stats ?
I may agree 2 pgms playing zerg may be biased, vut what about non pro P gamers ? Actually between two different biased pov, I personnaly am more intended into belive the pro one.
People are still suggesting mutas because the things against them all involve some big, magical tech switch from P.
What the hell does the 6 gate push have to do about this? If the guy opens that way, the deathball certainly isn't coming (or is way too delayed to matter). If that's the case, the problem isn't the Collo/VR combo.
And people taking this being IMBA as a pure fact is the reason why this thread is so darn active. People have the right to disagree with what was said in this episode. Pro gammers are immune to mistake. People also felt that they didn't go far enough into explaining why it is OP. I will still complain that IdrA and Artosis weren't consistant in their argument: if they say that a maxed zerg army will not beat a maxed Protoss army, why the hell do they keep talking about ways to fix it head-on.
Sure, I'm protoss, but I didn't even know about this strat.
"People are still suggesting mutas because the things against them all involve some big, magical tech switch from P."
So toss opens stargate and he needs magical tech switch? xD
Man toss just need to add extra stargate if he does not have and start pumping phoenixes with voids and stalkers and your muta can't win anymore.
they should make show "under powered" and take a look at stalker in its first episode that designed "backbone unit" loses to ling, roach and hydra in cost-to-cost sucha joke. yet p has to cost efficient in pvz because zerg will always have more bases. zerg might be thinking colossus/voidray is overpowered it's OPPOSITE. protoss gateway units suck so much to the point without colossus or high tech it's almost free loss
so all this is is just zerg crying they're not getting free win anymore
On February 17 2011 00:37 WhiteDog wrote: The shield regen even during the fungal growth, so 10 fungal will just shatter the shield at best.
Would you please stop posting false information in this thread? You've been doing it for several posts now and it's really not contributing to the discussion. Shields do NOT regen until a unit has gone for several seconds without taking damage. Fungal growth does continuous damage, preventing shield regen.
On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote: Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them.
So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas.
Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes?
Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough.
If the zerg is forced to attack to kill the colossi, then there is no reason for the zerg to "leave" the colossi and chase the phoenixes when the phoenixes run. The phoenixes either have to stay and protect the colossi, or can run and try to kite the mutas. Either way, the mutas should just stay with the colossi, because then they either get to kill the colossi or, if the P player does engage, get to kill the colossi and the phoenix.
Or, of course, throw some infestors in.
Or he could just retreat the colossus to his canons and then hunt down the muta ball until it's dead.
Lol or he could just retreat into the safety of his 100 dark templar and 100 HT with storm. Where are you getting cannons from? Stop throwing out random scenarios, we are talking about composition v. composition, not a bunch of scenarios that will change game to game and be specific to a particular game between two particular players.
...a forge FE is the normal way to start this build...
And exactly how many cannons is this toss player supposed to have, against a MASS muta ball, in addition to VRs/Colossi/Sentries-- where is all this magical income coming from?
On February 16 2011 23:56 DjayEl wrote: Why do people dont go through the entire topic. We already discussed mutas and the still is P players continuously spamming redundant posts about mutas and how awesome they are supposed to be. Thats how threads go hundred pages and no one is really able to read them any more.
A single question : do you know about the 6 gate push ?
It seem also that a lot of posts that claim to be "i play both P and Z" seem to be disguised "i only really play P posts and dont want anyone claim my race is OP".
Are you really pleased with playing an imbalanced strat ? Why is it for, just pumping your stats ?
I may agree 2 pgms playing zerg may be biased, vut what about non pro P gamers ? Actually between two different biased pov, I personnaly am more intended into belive the pro one.
People are still suggesting mutas because the things against them all involve some big, magical tech switch from P.
What the hell does the 6 gate push have to do about this? If the guy opens that way, the deathball certainly isn't coming (or is way too delayed to matter). If that's the case, the problem isn't the Collo/VR combo.
And people taking this being IMBA as a pure fact is the reason why this thread is so darn active. People have the right to disagree with what was said in this episode. Pro gammers are immune to mistake. People also felt that they didn't go far enough into explaining why it is OP. I will still complain that IdrA and Artosis weren't consistant in their argument: if they say that a maxed zerg army will not beat a maxed Protoss army, why the hell do they keep talking about ways to fix it head-on.
Sure, I'm protoss, but I didn't even know about this strat.
"People are still suggesting mutas because the things against them all involve some big, magical tech switch from P."
So toss opens stargate and he needs magical tech switch? xD
Man toss just need to add extra stargate if he does not have and start pumping phoenixes with voids and stalkers and your muta can't win anymore.
Why are the mutas letting him build up an army while they still have dominance?
On February 17 2011 00:44 KoKoRo wrote: After reading more comments in this thread, maybe it's a macro complex. There's probably a 2 base Zerg timing push that can stomp this build. Blah blah blah what if he doesn't go it, what if he does? The point is maybe there is an attack before he gets mass colossi that deals with this build and possibly other Protoss builds.
Zerg 2 base play isn't weak in any standards, people just assume the race is weak because, "The pros say so". If you're a 2 basing Zerg the most you have to worry about is them getting their natural up and saturated. With this logic you're still ahead of them by 1 base. Albeit you're 2 basing hardcore.
People need to be more creative with their play. Mechanics only style of play is boring and uninteresting to watch. I have a harder time dealing with Randoms that get Zerg because they do things a straight up Zerg player wouldn't do. Whether they win or lose it forced me to play by their rules.
My only ideas are that the Zerg player 2 bases hard enough to kill the expansion, if they can't they prepare for the worst and get as much scouting information as possible. On a map like Shakuras 2 basing could be hard because the natural is so easy to defend and with force fields being as powerful as they are it could make for a hard time on any map. The only unorthodox way to deal with Force Fields that I know of is to burrow and hope they don't have any obs to pick off units.
That said, I may be thinking of a build that requires a FE and assumes you know how to protect it easily and cost efficiently.
Two base timing is only going to work if you get lucky. All they need is one colossus to hold it off. You would be better of trying nydus or a drop.
On February 16 2011 23:56 DjayEl wrote: Why do people dont go through the entire topic. We already discussed mutas and the still is P players continuously spamming redundant posts about mutas and how awesome they are supposed to be. Thats how threads go hundred pages and no one is really able to read them any more.
A single question : do you know about the 6 gate push ?
It seem also that a lot of posts that claim to be "i play both P and Z" seem to be disguised "i only really play P posts and dont want anyone claim my race is OP".
Are you really pleased with playing an imbalanced strat ? Why is it for, just pumping your stats ?
I may agree 2 pgms playing zerg may be biased, vut what about non pro P gamers ? Actually between two different biased pov, I personnaly am more intended into belive the pro one.
People are still suggesting mutas because the things against them all involve some big, magical tech switch from P.
What the hell does the 6 gate push have to do about this? If the guy opens that way, the deathball certainly isn't coming (or is way too delayed to matter). If that's the case, the problem isn't the Collo/VR combo.
And people taking this being IMBA as a pure fact is the reason why this thread is so darn active. People have the right to disagree with what was said in this episode. Pro gammers are immune to mistake. People also felt that they didn't go far enough into explaining why it is OP. I will still complain that IdrA and Artosis weren't consistant in their argument: if they say that a maxed zerg army will not beat a maxed Protoss army, why the hell do they keep talking about ways to fix it head-on.
Sure, I'm protoss, but I didn't even know about this strat.
Don't forget that it's very hard for zerg to scout the protoss base (July against squirtle make and overseer just to scout, I don't think he was considering the dark templar).
It's very hard for Zerg to scout they have to pay 50/100 to get a flying scout at Lair.
Every other race gets flying scout for less money at a lower tech level.
Not fair.
PS/ stop saying the word "infestor". Most of us (zerg players) just like infestor a lot but almost never build them because of the gaz prize and they easy way they die.
See, that's not a compelling argument to players who've relied on High Templar for ten years.
What the hell does the 6 gate push have to do about this? If the guy opens that way, the deathball certainly isn't coming (or is way too delayed to matter). If that's the case, the problem isn't the Collo/VR combo.
Because, if you had read the entire thread, you would have know this :
Protoss' deatchball strat is strong, not only because ot the unit compo in itself, but because if Zergs decides so commit o an unusual unsafe army compo, like mutas, the P player just can all in with a very easy to execute transition and just win outright.
Lets say P goes for this strat, he already makes 4+5 gates + robo + stargate, he sends and observer and see what Zerg is doing. Lets say Zerg puts a spire and make gling, or that his roach hydra is low, P throws down one more gateway and a pylon and just 6 gates the Zerg, as it is o strong to defend unless you clearly have prepared against it. Some guy before stated that P cant open 3 gate expand then doing the deathball, I already provided a replay to prove him wrong.
Be ready for such a tech switch is what makes this strat sto strong, as generally common thinking amongst everyone is that Z is so strong at tech switches, when in this case it precisely is P who is able to react WAY better than Zerg, and he win the reacting/switching game no matter what. ArtosIdra says this, zerg players says this, it underlines a certain reality.
Why it is this ? Well, it is hard to say, and I agree it is counter intuitive as everyone know how Z are known for tech switches, but it goes like that. Maybe it has to do with subtle game timings, with P just needing to tinker his compo to react, of him having every building he needs in mid game to punish any fancy zerg stance, maybe all of this at once – I donno, and trust me I'm sad about this, but this is just reality, I mean about real game, not theorycrafting. P players should really try to play Z against this, REALLY, so they can see what issue we are talking about. I agree it is not intuitive as it relies about invisible timings and having initiative, and it is hard to explain with just words as you can always tell "X zerg units could work, why won't you try". Problem is, you may be right, but only in theory. Not in the real game.
So I provided a rep before, even if it is at my crappy level, so I encourage anyone who say he beats this strat to post something. If they are right I would be GLAD to se them beating a strong P master and teach me a REAL way to play. I personnally cant.
On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote: Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them.
So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas.
Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes?
Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough.
If the zerg is forced to attack to kill the colossi, then there is no reason for the zerg to "leave" the colossi and chase the phoenixes when the phoenixes run. The phoenixes either have to stay and protect the colossi, or can run and try to kite the mutas. Either way, the mutas should just stay with the colossi, because then they either get to kill the colossi or, if the P player does engage, get to kill the colossi and the phoenix.
Or, of course, throw some infestors in.
Or he could just retreat the colossus to his canons and then hunt down the muta ball until it's dead.
Lol or he could just retreat into the safety of his 100 dark templar and 100 HT with storm. Where are you getting cannons from? Stop throwing out random scenarios, we are talking about composition v. composition, not a bunch of scenarios that will change game to game and be specific to a particular game between two particular players.
...a forge FE is the normal way to start this build...
And exactly how many cannons is this toss player supposed to have, against a MASS muta ball, in addition to VRs/Colossi/Sentries-- where is all this magical income coming from?
Muta vs. phoenix is bad enough already, fighting muta vs. phoenix over cannons only makes it worse, it doesn't matter how many there are. You don't even know how good phoenixes are vs. muta so whatever. Yeah in a game we're you can pull off a "lol I have 25 mutas before you knew about it!" it might work, but that won't happen against a good opponent.
This is what you do not realize:
Muta vs. stargate is SUICIDE unless you're just going to hope your opponent is too stupid to stop building voidrays.
Why are people saying that Mutalisks are a tech switch? People are already using corruptors to fend this off (with poor success of course). So Mutalisks are obviously an option. I think the main issue is that people are actually suggesting fighting the protoss ball head on with mutalisks. Which is pretty silly because everyone knows that Mutalisks' are not that strong in head on fights. Yea, they can win when there's a ton of them, but we're talking about it as a tech switch from roach hydra, so you're not going to have a TON of them...
On February 16 2011 23:40 KoKoRo wrote: What if Zergs starting using Overseers to slow down colossi/Void Ray production or Nydus Worms to go around the Protoss army?
Zerg is my off race and I'm a Master's Terran and many Protoss don't actually know how to deal with Nydus worms that don't pop up in their main or natural. Nydus worms just give the Zerg so much map control with being able to safely take island expos and what not. Yeah a Protoss can hear when you're taking an island but you get 2 Nydus worms continuously popping out canals I don't see what the problem could be. Even poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at. I also think Nydus Worms should get a buff allowing them to spit units down cliffs as long as it leaves them vulnerable while spitting to the low ground.
Only a terran can think like this. Do you think all these nyduses "poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at" are FREE? Ever checked the gas cost on nydus? And then continuously popping out canals? Seriously, only a terran could think like this.
Do you honestly think the zerg DOESN'T know where their army is? The problem is, when they actually come slaughter you with their army and now you've got 10 less corruptors because you've been "continuously popping out canals" and you die instantly.
A single zealot can prevent any canal getting remotely close to their main or natural.
Because 100-400 gas is a lot? Maybe I'm good as Terran/Zerg because I think like this. Do you think Banshees are free? Do you think Banshees automatically come equipped with Cloak? I invest in things that give me valuable scouting information and/or proper flanks. Now you tell me, what are the downsides to using Nydus Worms other than "1 less corruptor".
Nydus worm allows you to take expos that are not accessible by ground. More gas income. Do I honestly think a Zerg "DOESN'T" know where their army is? Yes. In fact I do. If you can't see it, you don't know where it's at. You just know where it isn't. And if they come to slaughter you, you use the Nydus Worm you have hidden to go around their army and base trade. Did you know Nydus's are structures and you have to kill them in order to lose all your buildings? And if you have an island the only way they'll get to it is with Void Rays. The only situation I see this as bad is them playing running back to clean up your army, which you make another, or running probes around to spam Pylons.
Maybe you're Zerg because you don't know how to play. You just follow what other people are doing.
Did you just actually suggest basetrading as part of your strategy... as zerg? Yes, because we all want solid strats like Nydus Basetrading as a solution to a turtling protoss /sarcasm. Not to mention that its a NYDUS WORM so you don't have to basetrade. You can simply defend because your forces can come back and defend easily. Of course the whole claim is that when you defend, you will die. Plus, the strategy we're talking about HAS void rays! Taking an island would do nothing!
On February 17 2011 00:44 Alpina wrote: "People are still suggesting mutas because the things against them all involve some big, magical tech switch from P."
So toss opens stargate and he needs magical tech switch? xD
No. But by opening either stargate or robo, you don't have a million warp gates, unlike what some people were suggesting. If you open stargate, see muta, put down another stargate, it is fine. But I've seen posts that were basically saying "build tons of stalkers" as if you had 5-6 gates at that point. You don't have infinite money to build warp gates, yet so people to assume so.
The same way it is ridiculous to expect the zerg to go hydra to muta to whatever to whatever early on, it is ridiculous to say that protoss can magically counter everything. If you have to cut units to put down additional warp gates to counter your opponent, you are behind (if only so slightly)
EDIT: Just saw the other post. Then, if it's protoss ability to tech switch that's causing the problem, perharps instead of buffing corruptors / nerfings VR/Collo, maybe looking at this is a better way?
the only viable way to counter this imho is alot of infestors. fungal growth on clumped void rays, maybe some infested terrans and neural parasite on colossi. maybe some mutas/corrupters as a backbone. but nevertheless void ray colo + x is indeed extremely strong.
I don't play protoss or zerg in SC2 , but can't zerg just grab 4 bases 8 gasess while protoss is massing it's collosus/void ray ball army and just outmuscle it with mutas and a few corruptors for support against phoenix ? Mutas with upgrades should be able to demolish void ray/stalkers the more your muta ball grows with the bounce attack and they won't have templars anytime soon do to investing in collosus/void ray composition . Obviously you need to build a few corrupters early on to deal with possible phoenixes and mask that you are going for a heavy mutalisk build , If protoss builds phoenixes he will just deley his voidray ball and good composition of corrupter /mutas of 4 bases will outmustle anything a protoss can throw at him without templars on 2 bases .You can always have a roach warren and a hydra den build there just for the sake of having an option or switch to a ground army .
Basically the answer to stoping this build as zerg is to get as much of an economy lead ( 3 - 4 bases ) as possible while protoss is turtling on 2 bases , get minimum units to stop any kind of harass . Make a lot of upgrades for air and ground army to have versatile armies at any given point in the game and mass the unit composition that counters or fights on par with his . In this case i think massing mutas/corrupters with a few ground army support possibly roaches counters voidray / collosus and gateway support . If you scout that he is massing something else you mass something else as well .
If you ask "well how am i suppose to get all this shit and not die to anything else" . Well the anwser is get better . If JulyZerg or other zergs can do it against pros . Then anyone here should be able to do it on ladder .
On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote: Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them.
So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas.
Why in these examples is the Protoss player always flawlessly microing and the Zerg player always stupidly a-moving after a bunch of micro'd phoenixes?
Because the zerg has to attack in order to kill colossi ? Remember ling get destroyed if you don't kill those colossi fast enough.
If the zerg is forced to attack to kill the colossi, then there is no reason for the zerg to "leave" the colossi and chase the phoenixes when the phoenixes run. The phoenixes either have to stay and protect the colossi, or can run and try to kite the mutas. Either way, the mutas should just stay with the colossi, because then they either get to kill the colossi or, if the P player does engage, get to kill the colossi and the phoenix.
Or, of course, throw some infestors in.
Or he could just retreat the colossus to his canons and then hunt down the muta ball until it's dead.
Lol or he could just retreat into the safety of his 100 dark templar and 100 HT with storm. Where are you getting cannons from? Stop throwing out random scenarios, we are talking about composition v. composition, not a bunch of scenarios that will change game to game and be specific to a particular game between two particular players.
Lets get the communication straight. We are discussing a 2base turtling style of protoss. Where they go for 3gate expand, into 2 stargate ( with phoenix harrass ) and getting a lot of voidrays while you put a good defense up at the entrance. Meanwhile you get 1 robo up and chrono out 3 or 4 collosi.
The only time the protoss ever steps out of their base is when they want to push right through you. The phoenixes are harrassing your overlords and drones while the sentries and cannons up front defend from early attacks. Those phoenixes can retreat when the protoss suspects an attack and help tremendously to soften up the zerg army by immobilizing them. Those phoenixes also scout your whole base meanwhile. The protoss sees your army composition, your choice of tech, when you expand and all that.
If the protoss sees a spire coming up, he can either decide to chrono out lots of voidrays or phoenix, which is a perfectly fine response vs corruptors or mutalisks ( incase of corruptors, phoenixes tank damage from corruptors while voids charge up on the corruptors ). Or they can decide to get a third base ( while the zerg ground force is limited and weak, since you're saving gas for spire units ) and get a whole bunch of gateways up. Stalkers with sentry support, leaving the phoenixes out of the equation, still beat mutalisks pretty cost effectively.
Also, this is not aimed towards your post but rather to the muta/ling suggesters.
Mutalisks and lings both get pretty darn hard countered versus storm. You generally do not want an army that gets beat the instant the opponent reaches a certain tech.
On February 17 2011 00:44 KoKoRo wrote: After reading more comments in this thread, maybe it's a macro complex. There's probably a 2 base Zerg timing push that can stomp this build. Blah blah blah what if he doesn't go it, what if he does? The point is maybe there is an attack before he gets mass colossi that deals with this build and possibly other Protoss builds.
Zerg 2 base play isn't weak in any standards, people just assume the race is weak because, "The pros say so". If you're a 2 basing Zerg the most you have to worry about is them getting their natural up and saturated. With this logic you're still ahead of them by 1 base. Albeit you're 2 basing hardcore.
People need to be more creative with their play. Mechanics only style of play is boring and uninteresting to watch. I have a harder time dealing with Randoms that get Zerg because they do things a straight up Zerg player wouldn't do. Whether they win or lose it forced me to play by their rules.
My only ideas are that the Zerg player 2 bases hard enough to kill the expansion, if they can't they prepare for the worst and get as much scouting information as possible. On a map like Shakuras 2 basing could be hard because the natural is so easy to defend and with force fields being as powerful as they are it could make for a hard time on any map. The only unorthodox way to deal with Force Fields that I know of is to burrow and hope they don't have any obs to pick off units.
That said, I may be thinking of a build that requires a FE and assumes you know how to protect it easily and cost efficiently.
Two base timing is only going to work if you get lucky. All they need is one colossus to hold it off. You would be better of trying nydus or a drop.
What does luck have to do with a planned attack? I may need your definition of luck on this one. Also I am a fan of both Nydus and Drop play.
Mass mutas is not really the meta game answer. It's a unit composition answer, but it doesn't apply to the rhythm and flow of a zvp. Usually when you go mutas, they get scouted via observer or hallucination OR when you go to harass them with your first batch. Once protoss recognizes this, they make phoenix for defense and with proper scouting, as Artosis/Idra mentioned during the show, they can adjust accordingly. So to everyone saying mass muta is viable, you should reconsider because a good Protoss in the mid game will always see your unit composition and tech capabilities.
EPT
