|
Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. |
On February 17 2011 00:54 DoubleReed wrote:Why are people saying that Mutalisks are a tech switch? People are already using corruptors to fend this off (with poor success of course). So Mutalisks are obviously an option. I think the main issue is that people are actually suggesting fighting the protoss ball head on with mutalisks. Which is pretty silly because everyone knows that Mutalisks' are not that strong in head on fights. Yea, they can win when there's a ton of them, but we're talking about it as a tech switch from roach hydra, so you're not going to have a TON of them... Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:23 KoKoRo wrote:On February 16 2011 23:48 Chylo wrote:On February 16 2011 23:40 KoKoRo wrote:
What if Zergs starting using Overseers to slow down colossi/Void Ray production or Nydus Worms to go around the Protoss army?
Zerg is my off race and I'm a Master's Terran and many Protoss don't actually know how to deal with Nydus worms that don't pop up in their main or natural. Nydus worms just give the Zerg so much map control with being able to safely take island expos and what not. Yeah a Protoss can hear when you're taking an island but you get 2 Nydus worms continuously popping out canals I don't see what the problem could be. Even poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at. I also think Nydus Worms should get a buff allowing them to spit units down cliffs as long as it leaves them vulnerable while spitting to the low ground. Only a terran can think like this. Do you think all these nyduses "poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at" are FREE? Ever checked the gas cost on nydus? And then continuously popping out canals? Seriously, only a terran could think like this. Do you honestly think the zerg DOESN'T know where their army is? The problem is, when they actually come slaughter you with their army and now you've got 10 less corruptors because you've been "continuously popping out canals" and you die instantly. A single zealot can prevent any canal getting remotely close to their main or natural. Because 100-400 gas is a lot? Maybe I'm good as Terran/Zerg because I think like this. Do you think Banshees are free? Do you think Banshees automatically come equipped with Cloak? I invest in things that give me valuable scouting information and/or proper flanks. Now you tell me, what are the downsides to using Nydus Worms other than "1 less corruptor". Nydus worm allows you to take expos that are not accessible by ground. More gas income. Do I honestly think a Zerg "DOESN'T" know where their army is? Yes. In fact I do. If you can't see it, you don't know where it's at. You just know where it isn't. And if they come to slaughter you, you use the Nydus Worm you have hidden to go around their army and base trade. Did you know Nydus's are structures and you have to kill them in order to lose all your buildings? And if you have an island the only way they'll get to it is with Void Rays. The only situation I see this as bad is them playing running back to clean up your army, which you make another, or running probes around to spam Pylons. Maybe you're Zerg because you don't know how to play. You just follow what other people are doing. Did you just actually suggest basetrading as part of your strategy... as zerg? Yes, because we all want solid strats like Nydus Basetrading as a solution to a turtling protoss /sarcasm. Not to mention that its a NYDUS WORM so you don't have to basetrade. You can simply defend because your forces can come back and defend easily. Of course the whole claim is that when you defend, you will die. Plus, the strategy we're talking about HAS void rays! Taking an island would do nothing! This is quite frankly a ridiculous post.
Because Zerglings and Roaches deal so little damage. Oh wait, they don't. I don't see your logic. Of course a base trade situation is always a last ditch effort. This is what I was suggesting at first, a last ditch effort, go around and kill off his base. And are you suggesting you can't have hydras to defend your island? Until I hear how this is completely and utterly as bad idea I'll stop talking about it.
All I'm getting is, "I've never tried and I don't think it has any chance of working in any situation what so ever." Who's to say you can't use the Nydus to attack from behind their army? I'm just throwing out ideas and people reject it because it hasn't been done before.
|
Might as well say this, somewhat more productive.
Is there an e-mail address were you can send suggestion for the show?
Or I'll just put it here:
- Next episodes definitely need replays of what IdrA and Artosis are talking about. It is not that I don't trust them, but it just helps so much understand the content. And hell, just having a few replays lie "XvsY- ColloVR , MvsN - Corruptor against ColloVR" and basically stuff that was attempted against the build.
|
On February 17 2011 00:25 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:18 Antimage wrote:
Protoss CANNOT switch to phoenixes once they see mass mutas. The splash damage and the pure reinforcement capabilities of mutas off 3 bases is astonishing.
If Zerg can't live long enough to get those mutas out, they have to experiment with hiding their tech and poking with roaches first.
Even if protoss opens phoenixes, they still have to add a robo or a good # of gates to repel a roach counter attack/timing push so they won't be pumping phoenixes non stop with chronoboost. Whereas mutas do pretty well versus anything protoss has to throw at them at this stage of the game. Just don't be reckless with them. So basically this toss is not using observers and zerg is not trying to harass with mutas? It is not reasonable to expect zerg to hide mutas until three saturated bases. Not to mention that theoretically with no lag one phoenix can kill an infinite number of muta unless the muta retreat to air defense which the phoenix can just run away from. The splash is not relevant when you have longer range and can shoot while moving, the phoenixes should be not hit with good micro. Realistically they get hit very little and you need a much smaller number of them to take on mutas.
Theoretical premises do not translate to actual in-game gameplay.
Zerg doesn't have to harass with mutas until the protoss ball starts looking for a 3rd base. If P chooses to just 2 base macro, well then you'll have to trade mutas to keep army values low.
I don't know what zerg players are using mutalisks against you but i assure you that it IS viable given good control from both players, for the zerg player to overcome you with mutas if you choose to go phoenixes.
|
The build being discussed is Colossus/Void Ray. Yes other builds can counter the counter to this build. But other builds can counter the counter of the counter to this build so it's obvious Zerg has the advantage.
People saying it's impossible to go 2 tech paths as Zerg (hydra/muta, hydra/corruptor, infestor/???, etc) is wrong. It's more gas heavy for Protoss and they will be stuck on 2 base, Zerg doesn't have to be. If the Toss can drop 2 tech buildings for Colossus, 1 for Void Ray, then Zerg can drop 2. Especially since they'll probably be on 2 base before Toss. Plus Zerg units are a ton cheaper, and have faster build times so you have the advantage early on.
If the Zerg doesn't want to tech twice, kill or harass them before the 200/200 deathball happens.
It's like watching the Zerg go Ultralisk/Broodlord/Hydra/Roach/Infestor and asking why it raped your 6gate strategy. You let them tech a ton and didn't punish them.
|
On February 17 2011 00:45 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:37 WhiteDog wrote:
The shield regen even during the fungal growth, so 10 fungal will just shatter the shield at best. Would you please stop posting false information in this thread? You've been doing it for several posts now and it's really not contributing to the discussion. Shields do NOT regen until a unit has gone for several seconds without taking damage. Fungal growth does continuous damage, preventing shield regen.
Wut ? First maybe I'm wrong but my assomption came from a cast so if I'm wrong that's because I've heard wrong.
And what else did i said was wrong ?
Funny guy.
|
I'm just throwing out ideas and people reject it because it hasn't been done before.
It hasn't been done before for a reason.
Thanks for the efforts, but actually I am sure I can throw randomly 50+ suggestions that would not be worse than yours in less than an hour, and I'm sure almost every other Zerg can or has done already.
What is really difficult is to provide actual working build order with actual good timings with supporting replays. Everything else is not "suggesting ideas", because an idea must me tight with match up timings and you must know them perfectly in order to make an idea good (not even saying viable after you test it, but just for it to *MIGHT* work).
|
If voidrays wouldnt counter corruptors then game would be broken because 10 broodlords would destroy whole protoss army because blinkstalkers just sucks against many broodlords.
|
Last time I did Void Ray Colussi vs a Wc3 zerg he sniped off 4/5 void rays before the fight even started, I never did it again, all you need is micro and abuse the map, unless your dealing with 350 stalkers but then 1 might wanna ask himself how a toss can be on mass ray colussi and mass blink stalkers which need upgrades to take out Colussi ;D
|
Artosis is crushing the korean ladder!!! muahahaha
|
On February 17 2011 01:12 DjayEl wrote:Show nested quote +I'm just throwing out ideas and people reject it because it hasn't been done before. It hasn't been done before for a reason. Thanks for the efforts, but actually I am sure I can throw randomly 50+ suggestions that would not be worse than yours in less than an hour, and I'm sure almost every other Zerg can or has done already. What is really difficult is to provide actual working build order with actual good timings with supporting replays. Everything else is not "suggesting ideas", because an idea must me tight with match up timings and you must know them perfectly in order to make an idea good (not even saying viable after you test it, but just for it to *MIGHT* work).
I'm curious as the what the reason is.
Are you a person that believes all problems in the game will be solved with a build order? What's the safest build to do? Obviously one that can still work even though it was scouted.
I put it in his base it was scouted right away. Conclusion: Nydus Worms are bad in this situation.
I used a Nydus to expand to the island. Conclusion: Nydus Worms are good for expanding in this situation.
I put a Nydus Worm in an obscure place for no reason. Conclusion: Nydus Worms are useless in this situation.
I put a Nydus Worm right out of sight of a common attack place so the creep is either not usually visible or barely visible and used it to flank from the rear. Conclusion: Nydus Worms are useful for quickly moving forces.
Nydus Worms are extremely strategical. It may cause the enemy to have to deal with that immediate threat while you attack from some where else, or to defend while trying to deal with the Nydus. Nydus Worms require 0 luck. If I put a Nydus worm next to your main CC, Nexus, Hatchery it requires 100% luck.
I'm not suggesting any Theorycraft in the topic of Nydus. I'm stating its uses and how it could be incorporated into play. I remember back in the day when Nydus Worms were being experimented with for attacking from behind enemy lines and hitting an expo and then retreating. But that's all I was seeing with it. My view on the American mindset(because I'm American) is you have it, you may as well use it.
|
Idea for zerg, not sure if it's viable.
Corrupter/ultra/roach. (in a maxxed out army, this isn't impossible). So basically you lead in with your ultras and flank with your roach ball and focus down the collosus. Corrupters can be above the army and can spread corruption to kill the collosus faster. The void rays are actually the least worry since once you get rid of the collosus, you can remax with hydras. Anyone try this?
|
On February 17 2011 01:33 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 01:12 DjayEl wrote:I'm just throwing out ideas and people reject it because it hasn't been done before. It hasn't been done before for a reason. Thanks for the efforts, but actually I am sure I can throw randomly 50+ suggestions that would not be worse than yours in less than an hour, and I'm sure almost every other Zerg can or has done already. What is really difficult is to provide actual working build order with actual good timings with supporting replays. Everything else is not "suggesting ideas", because an idea must me tight with match up timings and you must know them perfectly in order to make an idea good (not even saying viable after you test it, but just for it to *MIGHT* work). I'm curious as the what the reason is. Are you a person that believes all problems in the game will be solved with a build order? What's the safest build to do? Obviously one that can still work even though it was scouted. I put it in his base it was scouted right away. Conclusion: Nydus Worms are bad in this situation. I used a Nydus to expand to the island. Conclusion: Nydus Worms are good for expanding in this situation. I put a Nydus Worm in an obscure place for no reason. Conclusion: Nydus Worms are useless in this situation. I put a Nydus Worm right out of sight of a common attack place so the creep is either not usually visible or barely visible and used it to flank from the rear. Conclusion: Nydus Worms are useful for quickly moving forces. Nydus Worms are extremely strategical. It may cause the enemy to have to deal with that immediate threat while you attack from some where else, or to defend while trying to deal with the Nydus. Nydus Worms require 0 luck. If I put a Nydus worm next to your main CC, Nexus, Hatchery it requires 100% luck. I'm not suggesting any Theorycraft in the topic of Nydus. I'm stating its uses and how it could be incorporated into play. I remember back in the day when Nydus Worms were being experimented with for attacking from behind enemy lines and hitting an expo and then retreating. But that's all I was seeing with it. My view on the American mindset(because I'm American) is you have it, you may as well use it.
Seriously that's experience that told most of us that nydus is not viable. It's expensive, and everytime I try it, it got killed before poping out.
i've seen some Catz game where he succesfully used nydus, i was jalous. Need to try it out in different games, but too random overall.
Most of us never go Ultra because as a zerg player, you fear the attack as soon as the protoss get his first colossus, which come around the twelve minute mark. Ultras come way too late to really helps you defend that kind of timing push. So you mass roach and die 
Obviously there are things that can be improved, saying "imbalance!" is hasty.
|
I you try Nydus on a map like Xel Naga, you will see that a roach hydra army takes the same time to rally P natural if using Nydus rather that using their feet. They go faster if you have creep spread.
Why ? Because if you want to use a big Roach hydra army effectively, you must wait until it entirely pops out of the Nydus, as you must be stacked before attacking – otherwise P army will take absolutely no damage, just killng your guys one by one, as they come out in a line of units.
I too was interested as using a Nydus like P uses pylons to support a roach hydra push mid game, but 300/300 ressources and a lil bit more clicks just to have your army arrive in the same time (slower if you spread creep) or 10-15 secondes faster in case of a (very) large maps just is not worth the money, as long as Nydus has this one by one unit unloading system. Nydusses are, fortunately or unfortunately, just useful to take islands or for some cheese play/punish a non scouting opponent, and all of this is too much of an all in when you look at Nydusses price.
But thanks for the idea, it was nice. I'd love to use Nydus more.
|
Suddenly this conversation is switching to nydus play, and I'm not sure why. It really isn't the best kind of response to turtling players. It's not like they're expanding everywhere and spreading their forces thin, which is what nydus is for. The army really isn't that immobile, as people have said, because protoss is a reasonable speed and can ignore cliffs.
Nydus worms are great, but I don't see how they're practical for this discussion.
On February 17 2011 01:01 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2011 00:54 DoubleReed wrote:Why are people saying that Mutalisks are a tech switch? People are already using corruptors to fend this off (with poor success of course). So Mutalisks are obviously an option. I think the main issue is that people are actually suggesting fighting the protoss ball head on with mutalisks. Which is pretty silly because everyone knows that Mutalisks' are not that strong in head on fights. Yea, they can win when there's a ton of them, but we're talking about it as a tech switch from roach hydra, so you're not going to have a TON of them... On February 17 2011 00:23 KoKoRo wrote:On February 16 2011 23:48 Chylo wrote:On February 16 2011 23:40 KoKoRo wrote:
What if Zergs starting using Overseers to slow down colossi/Void Ray production or Nydus Worms to go around the Protoss army?
Zerg is my off race and I'm a Master's Terran and many Protoss don't actually know how to deal with Nydus worms that don't pop up in their main or natural. Nydus worms just give the Zerg so much map control with being able to safely take island expos and what not. Yeah a Protoss can hear when you're taking an island but you get 2 Nydus worms continuously popping out canals I don't see what the problem could be. Even poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at. I also think Nydus Worms should get a buff allowing them to spit units down cliffs as long as it leaves them vulnerable while spitting to the low ground. Only a terran can think like this. Do you think all these nyduses "poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at" are FREE? Ever checked the gas cost on nydus? And then continuously popping out canals? Seriously, only a terran could think like this. Do you honestly think the zerg DOESN'T know where their army is? The problem is, when they actually come slaughter you with their army and now you've got 10 less corruptors because you've been "continuously popping out canals" and you die instantly. A single zealot can prevent any canal getting remotely close to their main or natural. Because 100-400 gas is a lot? Maybe I'm good as Terran/Zerg because I think like this. Do you think Banshees are free? Do you think Banshees automatically come equipped with Cloak? I invest in things that give me valuable scouting information and/or proper flanks. Now you tell me, what are the downsides to using Nydus Worms other than "1 less corruptor". Nydus worm allows you to take expos that are not accessible by ground. More gas income. Do I honestly think a Zerg "DOESN'T" know where their army is? Yes. In fact I do. If you can't see it, you don't know where it's at. You just know where it isn't. And if they come to slaughter you, you use the Nydus Worm you have hidden to go around their army and base trade. Did you know Nydus's are structures and you have to kill them in order to lose all your buildings? And if you have an island the only way they'll get to it is with Void Rays. The only situation I see this as bad is them playing running back to clean up your army, which you make another, or running probes around to spam Pylons. Maybe you're Zerg because you don't know how to play. You just follow what other people are doing. Did you just actually suggest basetrading as part of your strategy... as zerg? Yes, because we all want solid strats like Nydus Basetrading as a solution to a turtling protoss /sarcasm. Not to mention that its a NYDUS WORM so you don't have to basetrade. You can simply defend because your forces can come back and defend easily. Of course the whole claim is that when you defend, you will die. Plus, the strategy we're talking about HAS void rays! Taking an island would do nothing! This is quite frankly a ridiculous post. Because Zerglings and Roaches deal so little damage. Oh wait, they don't. I don't see your logic. Of course a base trade situation is always a last ditch effort. This is what I was suggesting at first, a last ditch effort, go around and kill off his base. And are you suggesting you can't have hydras to defend your island? Until I hear how this is completely and utterly as bad idea I'll stop talking about it. All I'm getting is, "I've never tried and I don't think it has any chance of working in any situation what so ever." Who's to say you can't use the Nydus to attack from behind their army? I'm just throwing out ideas and people reject it because it hasn't been done before.
No, I'm rejecting it because it literally is "hope-based play." You are hoping your opponent does not respond properly. You're hoping that your opponent doesn't know how to basetrade. Of course I've done stuff like this, and that kind of foolishness doesn't work at the high level. That's the definition of not solid play. I'm not saying that nydus can't be used in solid play, but what you're suggesting certainly isn't.
Zerg has distinct and obvious disadvantages in a basetrades. We should not be trying "last ditch efforts" against turtling players. We should be able to take the map and outmacro them or do some sort of sexy timing push. That's the issue. That's what people are discussing.
|
On February 17 2011 02:07 DjayEl wrote:
I you try Nydus on a map like Xel Naga, you will see that a roach hydra army takes the same time to rally P natural if using Nydus rather that using their feet. They go faster if you have creep spread.
Why ? Because if you want to use a big Roach hydra army effectively, you must wait until it entirely pops out of the Nydus, as you must be stacked before attacking – otherwise P army will take absolutely no damage, just killng your guys one by one, as they come out in a line of units.
I too was interested as using a Nydus like P uses pylons to support a roach hydra push mid game, but 300/300 ressources and a lil bit more clicks just to have your army arrive in the same time (slower if you spread creep) or 10-15 secondes faster in case of a (very) large maps just is not worth the money, as long as Nydus has this one by one unit unloading system. Nydusses are, fortunately or unfortunately, just useful to take islands or for some cheese play/punish a non scouting opponent, and all of this is too much of an all in when you look at Nydusses price.
But thanks for the idea, it was nice. I'd love to use Nydus more.
That's not true, Xel'Naga vs 2 bases just isn't a good map for it. Nydus are good when there's 2 attack routes where the time it takes the opponent to travel through their bases to defend is longer than the time it takes to move through a nydus worm and the nydus worm is also faster than walking your units from one attack route to another.
Ok so to make it clear rather than an awkward explanation, look at Shakuras vs 3 base Protoss in any configuration. If it's horizontal then there's a long distance between the middle 3rd and the natural which you can exploit with Nydus worms. If it's vertical then the backdoor rock, the natural and the 3rd (vertical starting position's natural or main) all give you a shorter distance by nydus than ground and nydus is faster than defenders. If it's a cluster (main, nat, low ground 3rd) you still have backdoor and main attack route you can exploit with Nydus. Even on Xel'Naga if they take low ground 3rd you could hit that and the left most for bottom (right most for top) attack route into the natural using the nydus to cover ground faster than the P player.
|
build some overseers to snipe observers and initiate your techswitch?
hell fast hive, mass Corrupter clean up then morph fast into broodlords should work.
Maxxing out with Colossus and Voidrays takes ages! it not like someone is gonna abandon his strategy all together, when he went for it already.
insisting on playing "as usual", is what hurts you guys.
As far as i know corrupter (with good upgrades!!!) demolishes Colossus/Voidray easily.
he is 2 basing you only goal should be to destroy that army, he can't afford a second army like that of those 2 bases.
|
On February 17 2011 02:20 freetgy wrote:
build some overseers to snipe observers?...
and initiate your techswitch?
hell fast hive, mass Corrupter clean up then morph fast into broodlords should work.
Maxxing out with Colossus and Voidrays takes ages!
insisting on playing "as usual", is what hurts you guys.
I didn't realize mass queen was considered "as usual."
|
On February 17 2011 00:23 KoKoRo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 23:48 Chylo wrote:On February 16 2011 23:40 KoKoRo wrote:
What if Zergs starting using Overseers to slow down colossi/Void Ray production or Nydus Worms to go around the Protoss army?
Zerg is my off race and I'm a Master's Terran and many Protoss don't actually know how to deal with Nydus worms that don't pop up in their main or natural. Nydus worms just give the Zerg so much map control with being able to safely take island expos and what not. Yeah a Protoss can hear when you're taking an island but you get 2 Nydus worms continuously popping out canals I don't see what the problem could be. Even poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at. I also think Nydus Worms should get a buff allowing them to spit units down cliffs as long as it leaves them vulnerable while spitting to the low ground. Only a terran can think like this. Do you think all these nyduses "poking a few in their main base to get an idea at where their army is at" are FREE? Ever checked the gas cost on nydus? And then continuously popping out canals? Seriously, only a terran could think like this. Do you honestly think the zerg DOESN'T know where their army is? The problem is, when they actually come slaughter you with their army and now you've got 10 less corruptors because you've been "continuously popping out canals" and you die instantly. A single zealot can prevent any canal getting remotely close to their main or natural. Because 100-400 gas is a lot? Maybe I'm good as Terran/Zerg because I think like this. Do you think Banshees are free? Do you think Banshees automatically come equipped with Cloak? I invest in things that give me valuable scouting information and/or proper flanks. Now you tell me, what are the downsides to using Nydus Worms other than "1 less corruptor". Nydus worm allows you to take expos that are not accessible by ground. More gas income. Do I honestly think a Zerg "DOESN'T" know where their army is? Yes. In fact I do. If you can't see it, you don't know where it's at. You just know where it isn't. And if they come to slaughter you, you use the Nydus Worm you have hidden to go around their army and base trade. Did you know Nydus's are structures and you have to kill them in order to lose all your buildings? And if you have an island the only way they'll get to it is with Void Rays. The only situation I see this as bad is them playing running back to clean up your army, which you make another, or running probes around to spam Pylons. Maybe you're Zerg because you don't know how to play. You just follow what other people are doing.
Oh my sweet little baby jesus I hope you're a troll...
NYDUS IS SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SO SOOOOOOOOOOOO BAD... Whens the last time you saw ANYONE succeed with a nydus worm, when is the last time YOU succeeded with a nydus worm? Give me a replay to support your horrible theory craft please.
You know what the problem with nydus is? its EXPENSIVE, has 50 hp, makes a loud noise when it spawns, and pops units out ONE AT A TIME... ONE... AT ... A .... TIME.
You want to prompt a bace race with a nydus? hmm okay, i'll send 2 units down there to kill the nydus and proceed to stomp the shit out of your base while you frantically try to put another useless nydus down.
Overlord speed + drop is a much better investment if you want to try what you're suggesting... Nydus is bad, nydus is a gimmick, nydus will NOT win games.
edit: Ive only seen nydus used in games that were already won, or could have been won just as easily without them.
|
On February 17 2011 02:20 freetgy wrote:
build some overseers to snipe observers?...
and initiate your techswitch?
hell fast hive, mass Corrupter clean up then morph fast into broodlords should work.
Maxxing out with Colossus and Voidrays takes ages!
insisting on playing "as usual", is what hurts you guys.
And why is it that protoss and terran have so much diversity in their build ? Because they are safe. You can say whatever you want, but just play zerg, try to not play "as usual", you will see. You will die for nothing a hundred time, because you made a tiny mistake, forgot an overlord, took your gaz too late, bad scout.
|
Even though VR/Colossus has a possibility of being imbalanced, I would think it's best to wait for a while to see if the players have found a solution to it. Take, for example, the idea of big maps in TvP. Artosis indicates that it's best to let the matchup play for a while to see what evolves. The same thing with VR/Colossus, since it's relatively new (featuring in the GSTL).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
