EPTVoidRay/Colossus in PvZ - IMBALANCED! - Page 15
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Warning. Useless comments that are deemed to be flame/troll bait = ban. If you have criticism, thats fine but you better have amazing support to back up your opinion. Otherwise ban. | ||
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dark fury
Sweden426 Posts
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Vimsey
United Kingdom2235 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:00 Oceaniax wrote: If you go ahead and use the unit in-game, you'll see it's not. What liquipedia MIGHT mean is it's range 9 from the infestor to the very far edge of the targetting reticle (which means you'll hit little to nothing if that's where your opponent is). From the infestor to the middle of the targetting reticle would be more like range 7. Thats correct its range 7 with an AOE radius of 2.0. So even though it can reach 9 at its extremities its not going to be as effective at that range. Though it is worth noting that colossus's are usually in the middle/back of the army so you will still be hitting nearer stalkers/zealots so not as bad as being made out and those are the units you want to be hitting with it anyway. I personally think that infestors are expensive and extremely squishy but thats a whole other topic. On the topic of this week I think queen play should be investigated. They only cost minerals, dont cost any larvae and can transfuse. Of course feedback could be a problem but again its forcing protoss to go yet another unit down another tech path. | ||
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Aerakin
185 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:17 Ballistixz wrote: he does not need a replay pack, that is how trusworthy he his. Rather than going the trust route, I think a replay pack would be justified if only for analysis purposes. IdrA and Artosis are only two people, you can't expect to catch everything that goes on in a game. Well, it'd be interesting to watch, if anything ^_^ | ||
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Fumi
529 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:17 Ballistixz wrote: you really think someone as reputable/popular as artosis would lie about something like that and then go on to compare him to some no named troll poster? nice troll sir, but artosis nor idra are random TL posters that call something "imba" and need to post replays about it. they are professional players that have been playing since early BW days. if artosis says he has said he is undeafeated when using that build then it means he is undefeated. he does not need a replay pack, that is how trusworthy he his. that is how much he has contributed to this community. he is not some random person on TL that makes shit up on the spot. Both Artosis and Idra have a certain reputation for whining, so it's pretty fair to ask for replays. In fact, even if they were 100% perfect players, why not show a replay anyway? | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:22 Aerakin wrote: Rather than going the trust route, I think a replay pack would be justified if only for analysis purposes. IdrA and Artosis are only two people, you can't expect to catch everything that goes on in a game. Well, it'd be interesting to watch, if anything ^_^ i agree that a replay pack would definatly be great as we can see exactly how the top level players deal with a build like that, but trying to compare them to a no named troll with less then 200 posts as if they making all this up on the spot is just stupid. they have no reason at all to ruin there reputations by lying to THOUSANDS of people in this community. also cols are pretty much the only unit the deemed as imba in these shows. the voids on there own are not a threat, its the fact that vols SUPPORT the cols and other ground units that back up the cols. | ||
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Holes
Canada26 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Same conclusion of Zerg is UP; buff Corruptors. This build isn't unbeatable, by any means. Sure it's ridiculously strong once it's up and running, but look at what the Protoss has to do to achieve it. Protoss has to secure an expansion, get a Robo facility and bay, and 2 Stargates and there's no timing window to wreck them? It's a new build, some maps it might be a little iffy but you can punish a natural at least if they tech that hard, if not kill them. No way can they get a ton of sentries with 3 structures pumping out some of the most expensive and gas intensive units on 2 base. I'm no hater, I actually enjoy most of the stuff Artosis does for the eSports scene.. but I feel the show's going to where everyone thought it was going when it first started. I was optimistic up until this episode. Thanks for the effort, but I can't take this seriously. | ||
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slothly
England20 Posts
Wrong. They clearly pointed out there is no way for a zerg to penetrate a protoss army of collo/void when it reaches 200/200. They are correct in saying there is no unit composition capable of defeating this. It is not Zerg QQ --- it is purely the fact there is no way to go even or defeat it. Perhaps this is true; but why should a zerg or a terran be able to break or even trade off with an optimal Protoss ball? Our units are inefficient in small groups, slow, expensive and harder to tech to; not to mention the macro disadvantage we are naturally at in ZvP. If zerg can trade off an endgame, well balanced, toss army for equal supply cost Protoss has no chance. Yes the Protoss ball is powerful, yes collosi are powerful (because gateway units are trash without then,) big shock, its one of our racial traits. Perhaps the problem lies with maps not allowing zerg enough space to harass, gain extra expansions and outmanoeuvre a toss; but guess we will have to wait for some in-depth analyses from Idra on that. If PvZ is so terribly imbalanced we will see it in tournaments, but current results simply do not indicate any issue with PvZ. Such claims about balance are totally academic without an actual problem being apparent in tournaments; as it was when mass reaper became popular. | ||
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nagrimus
1 Post
The Zerg anti-air unit. That starts with "S". And doesn't exist anymore. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:28 Holes wrote: Colossus episode again. But now including another tech path! + Show Spoiler + Same conclusion of Zerg is UP; buff Corruptors. This build isn't unbeatable, by any means. Sure it's ridiculously strong once it's up and running, but look at what the Protoss has to do to achieve it. Protoss has to secure an expansion, get a Robo facility and bay, and 2 Stargates and there's no timing window to wreck them? It's a new build, some maps it might be a little iffy but you can punish a natural at least if they tech that hard, if not kill them. No way can they get a ton of sentries with 3 structures pumping out some of the most expensive and gas intensive units on 2 base. I'm no hater, I actually enjoy most of the stuff Artosis does for the eSports scene.. but I feel the show's going to where everyone thought it was going when it first started. I was optimistic up until this episode. Thanks for the effort, but I can't take this seriously. you simply have to try it for yourself to understand. get a practice partner and tell them to do this build and try to find a timing window to kill them before they reach that point. and if you cant then try to find a way to actually stop it. once you do that then you will understand what they are saying. mass mutas/rushing an expansion with a timing attack all seems nice ON PAPER but when you actually play the game you will find out that it just doesnt work. Dare I even mention. The Zerg anti-air unit. That starts with "S". And doesn't exist anymore. scourge in this game would really be OP. it negates all air from all races. with scourge in the game you would have to be stupid to make any kind of air unit including observers. and in zvz the first player to rush to scourge will fuck over overlords. | ||
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DeltruS
Canada2214 Posts
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:36 DeltruS wrote: Scourge wouldn't work with pathing as it is. All a zerg would do is right click to victory over air, no micro required. Also, multiple scourge can't blow up on one unit because units don't overkill in SC2. It really isn't good gameplay. Dude, give me scourge with crappy ai. I will gladly re-practice my control deselect micro if I got those babies back  | ||
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-vVvTitan-
United States473 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:30 slothly wrote: Perhaps this is true; but why should a zerg or a terran be able to break or even trade off with an optimal Protoss ball? Our units are inefficient in small groups, slow, expensive and harder to tech to; not to mention the macro disadvantage we are naturally at in ZvP. If zerg can trade off an endgame, well balanced, toss army for equal supply cost Protoss has no chance. Yes the Protoss ball is powerful, yes collosi are powerful (because gateway units are trash without then,) big shock, its one of our racial traits. Perhaps the problem lies with maps not allowing zerg enough space to harass, gain extra expansions and outmanoeuvre a toss; but guess we will have to wait for some in-depth analyses from Idra on that. If PvZ is so terribly imbalanced we will see it in tournaments, but current results simply do not indicate any issue with PvZ. Such claims about balance are totally academic without an actual problem being apparent in tournaments; as it was when mass reaper became popular. No again. I worded it incorrectly.--- ITs the fact the zerg goes 200 vs 200 and ends 100 vs 180. There needs to be progress made in that battle and when you speak of unit comp, they clearly state it is stupidly hard to find an effect counter to a non-derp-toss. Yes, zvp is a battle of compositions, but we are not talking the matchup in general, just the voidray/collo imbalance. | ||
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MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
Here is a replay of the infamous 'deathball': http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140198-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns In this replay, it shows a decent macro game heading into the infamous death ball. This is without any mutalisk harass, just a nice decent macro game where protoss pushes around zerg until the heavy units come in. I think zerg thought he could outmacro protoss by expanding many times - in the end, that unit composition is EXTREMELY difficult to kill. Something to note: the mothership is the cherry on top that makes this 'unbeatable', and without the vortex, I think zerg, with practice and defining build orders, can beat this build. Here is a replay of beautiful mutalisk harass, stopping the build dead in its tracks: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/140199-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis In this replay, the mutalisk timing was very good and forced protoss to build stalkers, or else risk being taken over with mutalisks. I believe Liquid'Tyler was commenting on this - not this specific replay - but about mutalisk harass, and with practice, 'unbeatable' builds can quickly fall apart. Again, something to note: the mothership unit looks like a unit that can hard counter any army, just by using the vortex spell. I've seen the mothership drop a vortex on all races, all unit compositions, and then poop their own colossus, archons, and even voidrays into the vortex - coming out without losing a unit, while decimating whatever was in that vortex. Thoughts? | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
And clearly artosis never loses a game with it http://sc2ranks.com/kr/854110/Artosis | ||
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nick1689
Australia494 Posts
CORRUPTOR IS GETTING BUFFED. They are making it do +4 damage to armored, but removing its bonus vs massive (info from Slush that he got from dustin). Fungal Growth is going to last 4sec down from 8sec but do the same damage, and it will do MORE damage vs armored. And stim research timing is going to get increased. PLEASE thumbs this up so Artosis/Idra can see Anyone know if its true? | ||
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SladeR
Canada61 Posts
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rS.Sinatra
Canada785 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:25 Ballistixz wrote: i agree that a replay pack would definatly be great as we can see exactly how the top level players deal with a build like that, but trying to compare them to a no named troll with less then 200 posts as if they making all this up on the spot is just stupid. they have no reason at all to ruin there reputations by lying to THOUSANDS of people in this community. also cols are pretty much the only unit the deemed as imba in these shows. the voids on there own are not a threat, its the fact that vols SUPPORT the cols and other ground units that back up the cols. I didn't say that they were lieing. I'm just saying I can't believe them at their word. There is a difference if you can tell. Again, a replay pack showing how Artosis being undefeated would go a long way to prove this. Also, going un-defeated doesn't mean 5 or 6 games... it should be about 20 - 30 games of this exact build just plowing through the ladder with well-known opponents. Since this build is so epic unbeatable, and we are talking about the "HIGHEST ECHELON", any replays against people that nobody knows about, don't count either. So please submit replay, of you beating... iono... fruitdealer or something... then that would be acceptable. Thats my point. That replay pack simply just doesn't exist. I can go buy a new sc2 cd key and smurf my way through Gold league and go utterly undefeated with this very strat as well. However, since they specifically said they are talking about balance at the very top, lets see some games at the very top. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On February 16 2011 14:18 dark fury wrote: You really need to think outside the box here. There should really be some kind of hydra/ling all in or something that can kill the protoss before the robo bay finishes, why do people just assume that it is IMPOSSIBLE for a zerg player to actually kill the protoss before he gets out the death ball? Yep, after you scout a stargate after the 3gate expand, it actually is very possible to go for 2base hydras + overlord speed + creep highway allin with a few Queens as well if possible. mass Hydra drop works as well, but these really need to hit before colo or it basically is gg. | ||
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bovineblitz
United States314 Posts
I mean... at least back up what you're saying... how much merit am I going to give to two zerg players who are both known for complaining? | ||
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