EPTBut for online tournaments, yeah, it's a bit of a problem. One of the reasons I don't really watch online tournaments much.
Stream cheating - Page 5
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TedJustice
Canada1324 Posts
But for online tournaments, yeah, it's a bit of a problem. One of the reasons I don't really watch online tournaments much. | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
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Neverplay
Austria532 Posts
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:02 Neverplay wrote: any half decend player would be better off concentrating on the game, then watching the stream while playing I doubt it. Knowing what your opponent is doing really helps and that's why many top level players have cheated in the past. You can also just listen to the stream rather than watching it. | ||
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hackmed
United Kingdom74 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:02 Neverplay wrote: any half decend player would be better off concentrating on the game, then watching the stream while playing If i was to put myself in a cheaters shoes, i wouldnt watch the stream exactly, i would have the stream open and just listen. Im sure if i heard a keyword such as "dt's" (for example) that would be quite a giveaway and it wouldnt really take away my concentration from the game. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 08 2011 02:25 TotalBiscuit wrote: I dunno where the fuck this tirade came from. Tyler is right, I don't know the backstory of the competitive scene pre-SC2, I wasn't part of this community at that point, hell I didn't and still don't give a shit about Brood War, wasn't my scene, won't ever be my scene. Doesn't matter how harsh he was in the delivery of the message, the message was on point and accurate. It's the internet, best not to get crazy offended because somebody pointed out that someone else is wrong. Plus when you say it in Tyler's voice, you can't help but feel the chillness in his tone. I think Justin.tv is going to get a huge leg up (they're already getting one) if they're the only casting service that offers a useful delay (1 minute is not useful.) Even if I trusted all the players, I probably wouldn't trust the viewers. Now that everyone knows qxc's character code, if he ever got in a finals of a big tournament and didn't have /dnd on, I'm absolutely positive he'd get spammed with what his opponent is doing. | ||
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Sceptor87
Canada266 Posts
Even Savior, one of the top guys in BW for something like a year or two, cheated with that whole scandal. Then you have news that Choya is win trading or playing rock, paper, scissors on BNet or some shit. It just is what it is. A solution will eventually come up like with what justintv is doing with a delay. But chances are some people will try to find ways around that as well. | ||
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote: Plus when you say it in Tyler's voice, you can't help but feel the chillness in his tone. I think Justin.tv is going to get a huge leg up (they're already getting one) if they're the only casting service that offers a useful delay (1 minute is not useful.) Even if I trusted all the players, I probably wouldn't trust the viewers. Now that everyone knows qxc's character code, if he ever got in a finals of a big tournament and didn't have /dnd on, I'm absolutely positive he'd get spammed with what his opponent is doing. Actually, even with /dnd, people will eventually spam. /dnd or busy status only changes the time that qxc sees the spams. And yeah, Tyler chilled me out. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:11 Jibba wrote: Plus when you say it in Tyler's voice, you can't help but feel the chillness in his tone. I think Justin.tv is going to get a huge leg up (they're already getting one) if they're the only casting service that offers a useful delay (1 minute is not useful.) Even if I trusted all the players, I probably wouldn't trust the viewers. Now that everyone knows qxc's character code, if he ever got in a finals of a big tournament and didn't have /dnd on, I'm absolutely positive he'd get spammed with what his opponent is doing. Justin.tv have outright said this is exactly what they're trying to do, which is why they're providing technical provisions to make that happen and pouring money into sponsorships for SC2 eSports events. Blizzard could help out as well (as they so often can when they feel like it). A tournament mode for custom games that forced Busy on all players just to ensure no accidental (or not so accidental) messages, which also did NOT report the results of games via the profile, would eliminate a few concerns. | ||
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Silmakuoppaanikinko
799 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Oh please, like TL-joining date is proportional to StarCraft meta-knowledge.Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010 I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know. While I agree that that cheating is common place, and often impossible to prove, so possibly even more common place then one may think it is. This is just trying to find an argument. Also, you check people's profile when responding to them? On February 08 2011 01:34 Hot_Bid wrote: And why would any respect be 'due' since "[he's] a relatively well known caster"?I say this with all due respect since you're a relatively well known caster, but you're extremely wrong. It's a dubious statement that can easily be refuted that is presented without anything to back it up. Assuming what you in your post here will lead to an atmosphere of cheating. Until there is a delay implemented, no event with money should have a live stream. That's our stance on it. If some events want to ignore this, that's obviously their choice. But I would not be surprised at all, in fact I believe it more likely than not, that these events have already had cheating occur. There's no way to prove it but in the past, when players can cheat without being caught, some will cheat. Yap, you only have a lower bound, which makes it even more scary.Also, I personally see no reason to not implement a 5 minute delay, I don't see where it can hurt, but maybe I'm missing a part. On February 08 2011 01:49 Grumbels wrote: Well, this is a problem in about every sport, say you have an important chess championship and someone just walks by and reveals a devastating combination for the person who is thinking about his move right now.Yeah, would it be his responsibility to have set himself to busy beforehand to stop such things? I think a case could be made he would have to forfeit the game, though that sounds a bit ridiculous I suppose. What can you do then? Forbid him to make that move? He could always claim 'But I WANTED to make that move, I was just contemplating if it wasn't a swindle!' There's nothing you can once that happened, the match is simply ruined and might have to be re-played. Also, it's basically a thing you have to deal with in 'online tournaments' of any strategy game where there aren't people watching over your shoulder and you're every move. And 'online chess tournament', who's going to stop me to confer with Deep Fritz once in a while? Same with anything, this is why these things are generally done in a hall with people looking on. I understand it's hard to pay for a thing like that, but if you don't you're going to have to accept that you make it 2893.56% easier for people to cheat if you don't. Most online poker sites simply allow you in the rules to use software to assist you. Why? Because they can't check it anyway and if they forbid it they'd just punish the people who obey the rules. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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semm
United States9 Posts
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kaisr
Canada715 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:42 semm wrote: Despite some of the classless responses to the contrary, TB is on average correct. It's the same as in life. It's really super easy to purposefully bounce a ton of checks around town. So long as they didn’t have your name on them, you could get away with it an awfully long time. And yet, check bouncing isn't a major problem. For some, they don't do it because they know it's just wrong, for others its the fear of consequences. I don't think if someone said 'People really don't bounce checks on purpose' folks wouldn't jump down their throat ... Nony's citation of join date and statement is a reference to the fact that both previous TSLs had a ton of top level respected players cheating in order to qualify. So, no cheating is definitely something that should be a concern for live streamed tournaments. | ||
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MindRush
Romania916 Posts
10 minutes is nothing, really! sometimes you wait so long for a tournament to start that 10 minutes seem like nothing | ||
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Mentos
United Kingdom203 Posts
On February 08 2011 02:36 leakingpear wrote: Speaking of boggling minds how on earth did you leap from disproving a statement with evidence of it being false to how HotBid views the community in general? He didn't say the history of cheating was purported by the majority of progamers or the minority or anything, you just made some bizarre leap to satisfy your own bizarre preconceived notion of what he meant despite there not being any evidence to support it. If you actually read the topic and understand that a discussion doesn't ever have just one angle and that my post doesn't address only the quote, but also the general approach he viewed towards online tournaments as a whole (as in: we won't approve live streams in tournaments with prizes, because people can and most likely will cheat), you will get your answer. | ||
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ffz
United States490 Posts
Also I have no doubt that ppl do ghost using stream and maybe even using observers during tournaments that pay money. Too much is on the line when you think about the prize money. shit ppl cheated in BW when there were no prize money. | ||
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Xswordy
United Kingdom425 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:07 Sein wrote: I doubt it. Knowing what your opponent is doing really helps and that's why many top level players have cheated in the past. You can also just listen to the stream rather than watching it. Indeed , also most players have 2 monitors these days , which makes stream cheating a piece of cake. | ||
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leakingpear
United Kingdom302 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:47 Mentos wrote: If you actually read the topic and understand that a discussion doesn't ever have just one angle and that my post doesn't address only the quote, but also the general approach he viewed towards online tournaments as a whole (as in: we won't approve live streams in tournaments with prizes, because people can and most likely will cheat), you will get your answer. Why is it that people on TL do this I honestly don't get it, you're literally inventing stuff up and presenting it as if it not only is fact but also is obviously apparent to everyone else. At no point has HotBid implied that the general population of tournament players can't be trusted, all he's said is that those who do cheat do exist and that because they exist TL has taken these measures to counter act that. At no point has anyone but you and TotalBiscuit implied there's some grand conspiracy to look down on all players as guilty until proven innocent, it's a completely manufactured argument that you're trying to continue on with cryptic posts like this latest pile of shit that implies that because someone disagrees with you they 'don't get it' because you couldn't possibly be wrong. Honestly the biggest problem with TL isn't the people who post just to get a post count, the people who have endless balance discussions with no merit or the people who go on and on about BW vs SC2, it's this endless series of posters who read a snippet of the thing they're replying to and then pigeon hole it into the thing that they want to bang on about, regardless of whether it's true or relevant. I guess it's to be expected with places like Fox News and The Sun legitimizing this farcical approach to conversation/debate/argument/whatever you want to call it. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:45 MindRush wrote: implement a delay in the tournament of 10 minutes. The viewers can see everything 10 minutes after things happen. Any1 watching a stream and aiding a player participating is useless. A player will have already figured out what the opponent has been doing for 10 minutes anyway.(ex. if PLAYER_A is doing a 6 roach push, PLAYER_B will see it ingame about 5 minutes after the roach warren begins constructing. After another 5 minutes the guy aiding PLAYER_B tells PLAYER_B that his opponent is building a roach warren.) 10 minutes is nothing, really! sometimes you wait so long for a tournament to start that 10 minutes seem like nothing I'm not really sure you understand why this isn't already being done. It's not being done because of technical limitations, not because people don't want to do it. You can't magically create a 10 minute stream delay, you have to buffer the video which is far harder than it sounds. Sometimes it happens accidently, but not reliably. You need streaming providers to implement that, or find a software solution on the streamers end. Justin.tv are implementing it, Own3d have like 60 seconds, not that that's actually enough and it seems to cause technical problems (SCReddit had to disable theirs) when it's utilised. | ||
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banzaiib
United States53 Posts
<shrug> I like justin.tv, i hope they get the delay figured out. I've noticed a huge increase in the number of people streaming using their site lately. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
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