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On February 08 2011 02:13 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:
but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating. Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010 I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know. So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...? So by your logic and reasoning, by which you have NONE, I myself do not know anything about anything since I just joined today.... The people that run this mainstream lamer website is just disgustingly more disgust by day by day. Teamliquid.net is just a newbie magnet and will always stay a newbie magnet.
There aren't shovels big enough to adequately hit you with.
He's clearly pointing out that because he hasn't been around longer than a year he missed the very very recent BW events that have repeated year on year and still made a sweeping, incorrect assumption that people won't cheat.
It's the clear lack of knowledge that he's insulting and trying to be nice by attributing it to the reg date rather than the probably more apt lack of research by TB before he posts general sweeping statements.
I can't tell if people are just unaware that as recently as TSL2 there was cheating to qualify, or that players like TT1 and Spades (who are now on the straight and narrow) were near the top flight of foreigner BW and map hacked (or whatever it was they did I forget) a year or two prior.
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On February 08 2011 02:24 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 02:21 Sein wrote:On February 08 2011 02:13 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:
but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating. Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010 I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know. So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...? So by your logic and reasoning, by which you have NONE, I myself do not know anything about anything since I just joined today.... The people that run this mainstream lamer website is just disgustingly more disgust by day by day. Teamliquid.net is just a newbie magnet and will always stay a newbie magnet. Wow, an account made solely in purpose of replying to a single post. I don't want this thread to be closed. Let's stay on topic. So to stay on topic you would reply to my post and comment on my actions without responding to the question of the thread which is about gamers watching other gamers via streaming..... Half assed * ITS OVER 9000!!!???? *
Try reading all the posts in this thread and calm down. I had already replied to OP before commenting on your post.
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So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...?
So by your logic and reasoning, by which you have NONE, I myself do not know anything about anything since I just joined today....
Apparantly that's the case.
The people that run this mainstream lamer website is just disgustingly more disgust by day by day.
Teamliquid.net is just a newbie magnet and will always stay a newbie magnet.
Yes it's a horrible place. Please leave immediatly so you don't have to stand to read posts from newbies like Tyler anymore.
@OP:
It's so damn easy to cheat that way at Starcraft and impossible to prove that you did it if it's an online tournament. The only option to completely shut that down is a LAN-Event with prepared computers.
But for online tournaments... casting from replays seems like the only reasonable way to avoid it. Delayed streaming might work, but you'd need at least 5-10 minutes so that you don't reveal any important information. Might screw up scheduling of tournament.
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On February 08 2011 02:22 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 02:17 Sonictonic wrote:So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...? Yeah, a general rule of thumb is that the longer someone has been with a community knows more about what has happend in that community. This has nothing to do with this half ass community. The question is related to a gamer watching another gamer via streaming..... Thanks for proving this half of assed as I know it to be.
Maximum madness, oh boy you really feel insulted don't you?
Yeah, that statement regarding the join date was stupid but relax for christs sake.
And on topic again, if there's the opportunity people will cheat. Simply as that.
Some may not even know but for a lot guys winning 100€/$ is so tempting, why not give it a try? Chances that someone else is going to find it out are close to non existent. And pride is overrated!
I'm disgusted by cheaters but that doesn't make them disappear. People cheat for much less than any real price.
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On February 08 2011 02:22 ThisiswhyIdontjoinok wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 02:17 Sonictonic wrote:So let me get this straight....Knowledge is based on the date joined to this crap half ass community? Is'nt your statement bold enough in its own right for even saying that...? Yeah, a general rule of thumb is that the longer someone has been with a community knows more about what has happend in that community. This has nothing to do with this half ass community. The question is related to a gamer watching another gamer via streaming..... Thanks for proving this half of assed as I know it to be.
If you look into the initial post a bit more it should be evident what he was referring to, unless you're new to SC2 as a whole. It wasn't long ago the betting scandal unfolded in Korea which shook every SC related website at the time. Not to mention that there were cheaters in the last TSL.
You're reading too much into it, he just called TB out for saying quite a bold statement without actually knowing too much about it. Not in the friendliest manner but hey, it's not a social club, and TB is hardly a five year old, I doubt he felt offended to the deepest reaches of his soul 
Anyway, back on topic. No, that's why livestreaming really is quite dumb. You don't even need two monitors, even hearing the casters can give you valuable information. Casting from replays obviously has its' own problems but anything that eliminates cheating is worth it, in my opinion, especially when playing for money.
Until a real delay for the various livestreaming websites pop up streaming should ideally be from replays and not live. But eh, the tournament organizers will obviously have to make the call.
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The topic arises every few weeks, cheating is possible and real as long as there is no delay. We had that discussion about ESL TV/Radio late last year and it wound up coming to no conclusion. At least ESL Radio has a 4min delay now (maximum on own3d, feature was implemented in january), don't know about ESL TV. Casting from replays still sounds stupid as it loses a lot of flair (I'm not even a big fan of delay but for online tourneys it's just the right thing to do). Casting offline events live, online with delay is the best option we have right now (excluding anyone but casters and players and maybe admins from the games helps, too...).
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There really is nothing stopping people, and there's no reason to say it hasn't happened already (though the amount of live casting on online tournaments doesn't seem to be as plentiful as commentators watching replays, though in time I'm sure more opportunities will arise).
TotalBiscuit kinda had the right idea, in that most players (nowadays mostly, moreso because of the implementation of such easily accessible replays and player cams) won't do it out of obvious respect and competitive spirit. The past, especially online, has it's bumps though. Essentially it's the same reason why a ton of players COMPLAIN about being able to hear commentators at some major events; they don't want it to be the case and while they might not be paying any attention to it - out of moral and/or distractive reasons - others might...
I'm actually interested in hearing about the Justin.tv tape delay thing. Seems like something that wouldn't be too unreasonable to implement, as an option at least.
Edit - perhaps I'm wrong though, the more I think about it >_> I hope it at least turns out well when it happens. Could really make "repairing" a troubled stream even more of a hassle, hopefully that won't be the case
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There will ALWAYS be cheating when more and more money is involved (sounds pessimistic, but it's accurate). I didn't follow the Broodwar community as well, but you can see it with other games, There was a game of counterstrike, some tournament cup, where one player had wallhack and they all were pros. People get to greedy and want easy wins, or have huge pressure on them and cheat. Streaming games live is a opportunity for all the cheaters out there
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I did this once for a pointless tournament. Then I realized that I want to get better and cheating would only hold me back. Of course there was no money on the line, and I will never be good enough to play for money, so I can't speak for the top level players.
But compare it to cheating in sports. Who knows how many baseball players take or have taken steroids. Getting to the top and making money is pretty important.
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On February 08 2011 01:34 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Nothing, other than the fact that if they're caught cheating they get blacklisted from every tournament in existence so it's not worth doing.
Justin.tv is implementing a tape-delay feature so that there's about 5 minutes lag time between what happens and what the spectator sees, but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating. The bolded portion of your statement is so absurdly not true it's mind boggling. Years of history of cheating, abuse, and maphacking from top players in the international scene disagrees with you. I say this with all due respect since you're a relatively well known caster, but you're extremely wrong.
so if he wasn't ' a relatively well known caster ' you wouldn't say this with all due respect? Just fyi, this condescending tone is completely out of place, especially coming from an administrator.
Ever thought that some may look at things from a different perspective, and would rather assume that the majority of the player base is actually honourable and with integrity? Of course that there are bad apples, have been and will be, but why would their presence dictate such pessimistic view on the scene as a whole?
Assuming that a player with the potential to do well in a big tournament, doesn't need to watch a stream to know what his opponent is or may be doing is a totally valid way of thinking in my opinion, so I don't really understand why anything in what you quoted boggles your mind.
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Cheating most likely happens all the time in online tourneys, possibly even by "top" players. There's no way to really know until every stream implements a 5+ minute delay.
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I always wondered about the EG masters cup, great production value but i wasn't sure if there was a delay or not. As far as i know, ustream doesnt have a delay option yet so im not sure if it was delayed locally before streaming.
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On February 08 2011 02:31 Mentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 01:34 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Nothing, other than the fact that if they're caught cheating they get blacklisted from every tournament in existence so it's not worth doing.
Justin.tv is implementing a tape-delay feature so that there's about 5 minutes lag time between what happens and what the spectator sees, but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating. The bolded portion of your statement is so absurdly not true it's mind boggling. Years of history of cheating, abuse, and maphacking from top players in the international scene disagrees with you. I say this with all due respect since you're a relatively well known caster, but you're extremely wrong. so if he wasn't ' a relatively well known caster ' you wouldn't say this with all due respect? Just fyi, this condescending tone is completely out of place, especially coming from an administrator. Ever thought that some may look at things from a different perspective, and would rather assume that the majority of the player base is actually honourable and with integrity? Of course that there are bad apples, have been and will be, but why would their presence dictate such pessimistic view on the scene as a whole? Assuming that a player with the potential to do well in a big tournament, doesn't need to watch a stream to know what his opponent is or may be doing is a totally valid way of thinking in my opinion, so I don't really understand why anything in what you quoted boggles your mind.
Speaking of boggling minds how on earth did you leap from disproving a statement with evidence of it being false to how HotBid views the community in general?
He didn't say the history of cheating was purported by the majority of progamers or the minority or anything, you just made some bizarre leap to satisfy your own bizarre preconceived notion of what he meant despite there not being any evidence to support it.
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On February 08 2011 02:31 Mentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 01:34 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Nothing, other than the fact that if they're caught cheating they get blacklisted from every tournament in existence so it's not worth doing.
Justin.tv is implementing a tape-delay feature so that there's about 5 minutes lag time between what happens and what the spectator sees, but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating. The bolded portion of your statement is so absurdly not true it's mind boggling. Years of history of cheating, abuse, and maphacking from top players in the international scene disagrees with you. I say this with all due respect since you're a relatively well known caster, but you're extremely wrong. so if he wasn't ' a relatively well known caster ' you wouldn't say this with all due respect? Just fyi, this condescending tone is completely out of place, especially coming from an administrator. Ever thought that some may look at things from a different perspective, and would rather assume that the majority of the player base is actually honourable and with integrity? Of course that there are bad apples, have been and will be, but why would their presence dictate such pessimistic view on the scene as a whole? Assuming that a player with the potential to do well in a big tournament, doesn't need to watch a stream to know what his opponent is or may be doing is a totally valid way of thinking in my opinion, so I don't really understand why anything in what you quoted boggles your mind.
One bad apple is enough to ruin an entire tournament. Even top players can miss things they should have scouted, imagine if IdrA could hear Tastosis yelling about the hidden expansion in GSL 1 (or was it 2?) on Metalopolis. He would have won that without a problem, and IdrA was, and is, considered one of the most solid players in the world.
I get what you're saying, the pessimism towards the scene as a whole is obviously not great, but it's necessary. There are people whose lives are based on their tournament performance, the stakes are just too high for anyone to turn a blind eye.
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On February 08 2011 02:35 hackmed wrote:
I always wondered about the EG masters cup, great production value but i wasn't sure if there was a delay or not. As far as i know, ustream doesnt have a delay option yet so im not sure if it was delayed locally before streaming.
I very much doubt it was. Nobody seems to have come up with an adequate solution for local buffering yet and if they have, they ain't sharin'
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I don't know about SC1 , but in wc3, we had an excellent program called WaaaghTV, that allowed people to stream matches using the game client with a configurable amount of delay. Unfortunately, that program made use of LAN to allow the user to join the game to spectate as he would for a LAN game, and made 100x less use of bandwidth than livestream. This meant that I could control the camera and look at whatever spot on the map I wanted.
How I miss that functionality. Blizzard has got it all backwards by removing LAN, and Bobby Kotick should DIAF.
/end rant.
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It's naive to assume that people won't cheat out of fear of getting caught, especially in large tournaments. I think there's a little bit of validity in that though when the stakes aren't as large; a ladder game, or even a $100 weekly tournament. I think most well known players wouldn't risk their reputation for that $100.
There might not have been that many live streams going on during TSL2, but best believe people still tried to cheat. You get into the bigger tournaments though, starting talking in thousands, then I fully agree with "don't trust any one, use replays." Justin.tv's 5 minute delay option they're adding is a welcome band-aid, and I think that'd cover most circumstances. It's not perfect, but I would say it's good enough considering how hard replays are to work with (and god knows Blizzard doesn't make it any easier).
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Thats why lan tournaments will always feel more prestigious, is the only way to be sure no one is hacking/cheating.
AND EVEN THEN, theres cases like Leta lol
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On February 08 2011 02:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:
I had a word with Justin.tv's COO a couple of days ago and they claim to have resolved that (plus they're getting servers in Europe to alleviate the problems some European viewers have).
Best news I've heard in weeks!
It's sad that you have to "babysit" and prevent players from cheating but it has to be done. There no end what people will do to catch a break.
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Casting from replay also carries the risk of results being spoiled ahead from match history, TL is probably the only organization that does the guest pass thing to prevent that.
Really, the only solution is delayed stream or a reliable admin that observes the games and delivers the replays on time to the casters, so you start casting before the series is over.
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EPT
