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On February 09 2011 05:05 Chill wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 09 2011 05:03 nathangonmad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote:On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote:
but in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating. Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010 I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know. Care to give us an example of cheats that have potential to win anything? Dimaga, TT1, KawaiiRice, Testie, Yosh, Savior... off the top of my head. Unless you're looking for a current list of cheaters, which would be silly, because the above list shows good people can turn to cheaters if the opportunity is right.
As far as i know Dimaga didn't maphack, listened to stream etc...
You could even said he was victim of faulty system that allowed people to not play games that they would think they could lose so they wouldn't lose theirs standing.
Ok now back to topic.
I kind of like TLOpen format. Early rounds are live streamed and then we get casts from replays. Since usually the pros are seeded (so they dont run into each other in early rounds) its fair since they have a edge on normal players. When come the replay casting rounds Hot_Bid and rest of TL staff are doing some really good work. We can be sure there is no cheating involved. Still there could be some improvment to their work... Like changing first post of LR thread of TLO about which streamer would cast what games. eg: they send replays of X player match to streamer Y. They edit the post with streamer Y - Some round match of player X... some other streamer some other player match.
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If Doriboi senses a bad taste on his mouth, maybe he should stop sprouting bullshit about Morrow. It is crazy to question his ethics (!?) because he used what was a well-known BO in TvZ. 5rax reaper was definitely imbalanced, but it was part of the game. And frankly, if he was so eager to win, he would have just kept playing terran. He was one of the best, if not the best "foreigner" terran when he decided to switch races.
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Evolution and Society reward Cheating, Lying, and Stealing
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I know this is slightly off-topic, but some believe that "people won't cheat if they care about the game," or are asking, "why would someone cheat when they have a chance to win?" So on, and so forth.
The rewards are given to the victor. Simple. It doesn't matter how you got there unless you get caught.
It is dangerously ignorant to project yourself onto the public. Just because you have decency, honor, and self-respect does not mean other people will.
Look at the most successful politicians, businessmen, and underground cartels? So many of them got where they are because of lying, cheating, and stealing. Some get caught. Many do not. It is a damn shame.
We're taught be humble, and honest so we don't expect the people teaching us that are liars and cheaters. It's a horrible thing to think, and I'm being more symbolic than literal, but it's true.
Livestreaming a tournament almost guarantees cheating at some level.
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On February 09 2011 07:02 legaton wrote:
If Doriboi senses a bad taste on his mouth, maybe he should stop sprouting bullshit about Morrow. It is crazy to question his ethics (!?) because he used what was a well-known BO in TvZ. 5rax reaper was definitely imbalanced, but it was part of the game. And frankly, if he was so eager to win, he would have just kept playing terran. He was one of the best, if not the best "foreigner" terran when he decided to switch races.
I'm not sprouting "bullshit." If you want my sources, I can give them to you. Would you like MLA, or APA format? Please be courteous to me, and I will be more than happy to extend you the same courtesy. A friendly debate does not need to degenerate into rude comments.
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We have adopted the APA format in France. I'm curious about what kind of sources can be mobilized to prove how using a standard feature of a game -Morrow just used a well-known BO- in a tournament can make you question his ethics. Specially when you are putting Morrow's decision-making (going for a one base all-in) on the same bag as cheating... or at least, you are sustaining the confusion between these two.
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On February 08 2011 08:40 crms wrote:
What strikes me the most in this thread and just teamliquid in general is the forgiveness of the SC community is pretty unique. I made the biggest impact in online gaming through FPS and once someone was found to be a cheater they were basically never allowed back... ever. Bans were essentially lifetime even if leagues stipulated 6months-1year. Cheaters were treated like cancer, their only option to get back in were to smurf.
This also stunned me. I am boggled how this community so easily forgives some of these cheaters. I'll never understand why some of the popular players here who have cheated in the past are still accepted and allowed to play in tournaments. I guess the fact that being a skillful player and cheating doesn't get you completely banned from the SC scene could be a reason why this happens at all. Hard to imagine one of these top players cheating if it literally meant the total end of their SC career(which it clearly is not).
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Sprouting is what seeds do when they start to turn into plants after they germinate.
Spouting is when you say something in a rather aggressive manner.
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I'm just going to say the following from a Fan's perspective.
I much prefer to watch a live or even 5min tape delayed match than one from replays. At TB did mention (tho discounted) there is a much more epic feel to the match when live than when casted from replays.
Staying up late to watch GSL, or watching MLG finals on weekends this summer has been very fun and exciting. I still watch lots of replay casted matches and games, but I can say, 100%, I enjoy them less. Mostly because they feel stale, and that someone, somewhere, already knows how it ends. The excitement is in the player skill, but also in the feeling of watching something unfold with 100s or 1000s of other fans on the internet.
Until there is an easy way to add tape delay to streaming matches, I'm not sure there's a good solution for everyone involved (pros, casters, fans and sponsors.)
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On February 09 2011 07:29 leakingpear wrote:
Sprouting is what seeds do when they start to turn into plants after they germinate.
It's pretty BM when someone leafs without saying gg
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No-one said anything about disregarding it, what I did say is that it cannot be a major consideration. The statistics that you speak of do not necessarily apply to SC2, where a culture of full match replays is far more prevalent than real sports. On that basis I don't think it's worthy of major consideration. A factor? Certainly, an over-ridingly important one? I don't think so.
That's the point, it's valid for pretty much every sports event ever tested (even friggin' chess), why wouldn't it for SC2? Sure it's easier to do taped casts but it's no different from a taped commentary on a football game in the perception, it already happened, people tried to do commentary without prior knowledge of the outcome, effectively the same. Just deal with it as a consideration, don't just disregard it, if you were to make a decision on that matter at least put it to a vote or a major survey to get somewhat of an idea about how important it might be. Saying it's "just not that important" is ignorant, that's all I'm saying.
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On February 09 2011 07:24 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 08:40 crms wrote:
What strikes me the most in this thread and just teamliquid in general is the forgiveness of the SC community is pretty unique. I made the biggest impact in online gaming through FPS and once someone was found to be a cheater they were basically never allowed back... ever. Bans were essentially lifetime even if leagues stipulated 6months-1year. Cheaters were treated like cancer, their only option to get back in were to smurf. This also stunned me. I am boggled how this community so easily forgives some of these cheaters. I'll never understand why some of the popular players here who have cheated in the past are still accepted and allowed to play in tournaments. I guess the fact that being a skillful player and cheating doesn't get you completely banned from the SC scene could be a reason why this happens at all. Hard to imagine one of these top players cheating if it literally meant the total end of their SC career(which it clearly is not).
Exactly, and they are still being protected by certain casters, because they are friends with no bias. Also being invited on certain shows as in the one tonight
I guess as a fan I'll just not watch when they are on. just hard for me to believe that its all forgotten even when its proven they were a cheat.
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On February 09 2011 07:24 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 08:40 crms wrote:
What strikes me the most in this thread and just teamliquid in general is the forgiveness of the SC community is pretty unique. I made the biggest impact in online gaming through FPS and once someone was found to be a cheater they were basically never allowed back... ever. Bans were essentially lifetime even if leagues stipulated 6months-1year. Cheaters were treated like cancer, their only option to get back in were to smurf. This also stunned me. I am boggled how this community so easily forgives some of these cheaters. I'll never understand why some of the popular players here who have cheated in the past are still accepted and allowed to play in tournaments. I guess the fact that being a skillful player and cheating doesn't get you completely banned from the SC scene could be a reason why this happens at all. Hard to imagine one of these top players cheating if it literally meant the total end of their SC career(which it clearly is not).
Wait, what? You guys really need to do more research before you spout out bullshit. Prior to SC2 Beta and a lot of B.S. you see around here, TL was known for their strict policies against any cheaters (point trading, account sharing, map hacking, etc.).
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I could've sworn I heard on Live on 3 that for the Reddit Invitational, There was something about a beta feature on Justin.tv that had a delay set in place.
EDIT: Just read TotalBith statement. Woops.
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On February 09 2011 22:35 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 07:24 skipdog172 wrote:On February 08 2011 08:40 crms wrote:
What strikes me the most in this thread and just teamliquid in general is the forgiveness of the SC community is pretty unique. I made the biggest impact in online gaming through FPS and once someone was found to be a cheater they were basically never allowed back... ever. Bans were essentially lifetime even if leagues stipulated 6months-1year. Cheaters were treated like cancer, their only option to get back in were to smurf. This also stunned me. I am boggled how this community so easily forgives some of these cheaters. I'll never understand why some of the popular players here who have cheated in the past are still accepted and allowed to play in tournaments. I guess the fact that being a skillful player and cheating doesn't get you completely banned from the SC scene could be a reason why this happens at all. Hard to imagine one of these top players cheating if it literally meant the total end of their SC career(which it clearly is not). Wait, what? You guys really need to do more research before you spout out bullshit. Prior to SC2 Beta and a lot of B.S. you see around here, TL was known for their strict policies against any cheaters (point trading, account sharing, map hacking, etc.).
Whoa, calm down there. I'm pretty sure he is not talking specifically about TL's policies in tournaments, but rather about the starcraft community in general.
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I just want to add that, while casting live matches is way cooler then casting replays, i enjoy replay based tournaments usually a lot more because there are no issues. No need to pause and restart a game several times due to lag or random disconnect, no need to wait for player to go afk for 15 minutes because he wants to watch a replay or something etc. For me, it's just usually a better experience. One thing, though, that is very annoying during the replay based stream is when casters and "producer" are off-sync. But even then the smoothness of the cast makes up for that.
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On February 09 2011 07:24 skipdog172 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 08:40 crms wrote:
What strikes me the most in this thread and just teamliquid in general is the forgiveness of the SC community is pretty unique. I made the biggest impact in online gaming through FPS and once someone was found to be a cheater they were basically never allowed back... ever. Bans were essentially lifetime even if leagues stipulated 6months-1year. Cheaters were treated like cancer, their only option to get back in were to smurf. This also stunned me. I am boggled how this community so easily forgives some of these cheaters. I'll never understand why some of the popular players here who have cheated in the past are still accepted and allowed to play in tournaments. I guess the fact that being a skillful player and cheating doesn't get you completely banned from the SC scene could be a reason why this happens at all. Hard to imagine one of these top players cheating if it literally meant the total end of their SC career(which it clearly is not).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/other_international/pakistan/9388422.stm
3 cricketers caught match fixing cheating, given 5 to 10 year bans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Italian_football_scandal#Sentences
Various sentences for officials mostly in Italian football scandal, ranging from 3 months to 5 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Formula_One_crash_controversy#FIA_appeal
F1: a few years away from the sport/FIA events.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwain_Chambers#Drug_ban
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Montgomery#Steroid_scandal_and_retirement
Doping in Athletics: 2 year ban.
Compare that to the Starcraft match fixing scandal, where they got permanent bans from any Kespa organised events (which other companies, e.g. GOM, also decided to adhere to).
Giving people a second chance in the Starcraft community isn't something completely off the wall. In other sports you don't typically get permanently banned either, for fixing matches or for cheating in other ways.
Someone like Spades, for example, who cheated in the past and got banned from events has gone to Korea to try and play in the GSL. It's not possible to cheat in the GSL AFAIK (aside from cheating to get high enough on the Korean ladder to enter), since you use GOM equipment and it's probably fairly monitored.
Just because someone has cheated doesn't mean they should necessarily be blacklisted forever, or entirely forgiven, but in most major "proper" environments, people do get second chances. Why shouldn't it be so in Starcraft where it makes sense?
It's harder to monitor, so you have to be cautious, but part of that is the responsibility of tournament organisers as well. Also people who haven't ever been caught could be cheating just as much as people who have been caught (which is the whole point of this thread). There's being cynical, and then there's being prejudiced.
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Just because someone has cheated doesn't mean they should necessarily be blacklisted forever, or entirely forgiven, but in most major "proper" environments, people do get second chances. Why shouldn't it be so in Starcraft where it makes sense?
I guess the point is that if cheating literally ended the career of these progamers, then it would be more of a deterrent. For example, if after being caught cheating TT1 and Spades had been permanently banned from all starcraft tournaments, then you better believe other progamers would think long and hard before even considering cheating. Yes, you might lose some very talented progamers along the way, but I think the sacrifice would be worth it. Obviously you would only ban them when you're 100% sure they cheated.
Personally I was also surprised at the willingness to forgive cheaters in this community. I think it was when TT1 was in the finals of MLG with Jinro (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) that I first heard TT1 had cheated in the past... and all I could think was "How are they even letting him play?" ... it kind of soured the whole thing for me. And I don't think I'm alone here.
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On February 10 2011 02:10 bentski wrote:Show nested quote +Just because someone has cheated doesn't mean they should necessarily be blacklisted forever, or entirely forgiven, but in most major "proper" environments, people do get second chances. Why shouldn't it be so in Starcraft where it makes sense? I guess the point is that if cheating literally ended the career of these progamers, then it would be more of a deterrent. For example, if after being caught cheating TT1 and Spades had been permanently banned from all starcraft tournaments, then you better believe other progamers would think long and hard before even considering cheating. Yes, you might lose some very talented progamers along the way, but I think the sacrifice would be worth it. Obviously you would only ban them when you're 100% sure they cheated. Personally I was also surprised at the willingness to forgive cheaters in this community. I think it was when TT1 was in the finals of MLG with Jinro (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) that I first heard TT1 had cheated in the past... and all I could think was "How are they even letting him play?" ... it kind of soured the whole thing for me. And I don't think I'm alone here.
There is no sport on the planet I can think of that blacklist's players for all time because of one incident. It's just a bad policy. Plus doing this would not stop cheating, people will cheat even knowing they could be banned forever.
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On February 10 2011 02:11 iCCup.Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 02:10 bentski wrote:Just because someone has cheated doesn't mean they should necessarily be blacklisted forever, or entirely forgiven, but in most major "proper" environments, people do get second chances. Why shouldn't it be so in Starcraft where it makes sense? I guess the point is that if cheating literally ended the career of these progamers, then it would be more of a deterrent. For example, if after being caught cheating TT1 and Spades had been permanently banned from all starcraft tournaments, then you better believe other progamers would think long and hard before even considering cheating. Yes, you might lose some very talented progamers along the way, but I think the sacrifice would be worth it. Obviously you would only ban them when you're 100% sure they cheated. Personally I was also surprised at the willingness to forgive cheaters in this community. I think it was when TT1 was in the finals of MLG with Jinro (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) that I first heard TT1 had cheated in the past... and all I could think was "How are they even letting him play?" ... it kind of soured the whole thing for me. And I don't think I'm alone here. There is no sport on the planet I can think of that blacklist's players for all time because of one incident. It's just a bad policy. Plus doing this would not stop cheating, people will cheat even knowing they could be banned forever.
You may have a point, but why is it just "bad policy" if you don't mind me asking? I guess I'd have to say that e-sports and regular sports are completely different, and so I don't think we need to rely on other sports to tell us how to deal with cheating. In e-sports you're just an anonymous ID tag behind a computer screen (in online tourneys at least), which I think encourages cheating... so perhaps we should be more harsh than traditional sports?
And no it probably would not stop cheating completely, but I do think it would deter it. Again, perhaps 100% perm-banning cheaters isn't the right answer, but I still think the SC community is too forgiving to cheaters.
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On February 10 2011 02:27 bentski wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2011 02:11 iCCup.Diamond wrote:On February 10 2011 02:10 bentski wrote:Just because someone has cheated doesn't mean they should necessarily be blacklisted forever, or entirely forgiven, but in most major "proper" environments, people do get second chances. Why shouldn't it be so in Starcraft where it makes sense? I guess the point is that if cheating literally ended the career of these progamers, then it would be more of a deterrent. For example, if after being caught cheating TT1 and Spades had been permanently banned from all starcraft tournaments, then you better believe other progamers would think long and hard before even considering cheating. Yes, you might lose some very talented progamers along the way, but I think the sacrifice would be worth it. Obviously you would only ban them when you're 100% sure they cheated. Personally I was also surprised at the willingness to forgive cheaters in this community. I think it was when TT1 was in the finals of MLG with Jinro (I hope I'm remembering this correctly) that I first heard TT1 had cheated in the past... and all I could think was "How are they even letting him play?" ... it kind of soured the whole thing for me. And I don't think I'm alone here. There is no sport on the planet I can think of that blacklist's players for all time because of one incident. It's just a bad policy. Plus doing this would not stop cheating, people will cheat even knowing they could be banned forever. You may have a point, but why is it just "bad policy" if you don't mind me asking? I guess I'd have to say that e-sports and regular sports are completely different, and so I don't think we need to rely on other sports to tell us how to deal with cheating. In e-sports you're just an anonymous ID tag behind a computer screen (in online tourneys at least), which I think encourages cheating... so perhaps we should be more harsh than traditional sports? And no it probably would not stop cheating completely, but I do think it would deter it. Again, perhaps 100% perm-banning cheaters isn't the right answer, but I still think the SC community is too forgiving to cheaters.
Spades' name is pretty well known, he's not hiding behind a tag. It's no different then Georges St Pierre being known as "Rush" or "GSP". It's just a nickname...
It's bad policy because you may end up banning very good players over one indiscretion years ago when the stakes were not as high. If you were not around in BW it was not like the SCII scene, there was not daily tournaments, or really any non Korean tournaments. Most players made nothing and played BW in hopes of maybe winning $1,000 a year. We all make mistakes (god knows I've made plenty of my own) but when a person is very skilled feels bad for what they did in the past I think they deserve a second chance. Notice how most of the SC community members are very accepting of TT1 and Spades but almost no one likes LastShadow (ajtls). Why? because Spades and TT1 have apologized and shown steps to leave that in the past while LastShadow repeatedly apologized then turned around and hacked over and over and over again.
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EPT
