EPTReputations are earned either bad or good
Stream cheating - Page 12
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Justanx
United States240 Posts
Reputations are earned either bad or good | ||
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:17 MrKozi wrote: I was watching last TLOpen some MorroW games. He was on DecemberTV stream answering accordingly to that casters were saying. Then ppl on chat start taking about cheating and MorroW said that he's only listening stream between games. You can belive him or not but I notice after that he was playing some random terran who went for cloack banshees and MorroW build some spore clawers without scouting anything... Its sad... MorroW isn't my favorited player anymore. Keep in mind you are not as smart as a player. You don't need to see the building to see what is coming. If you know Terran is getting gas but only see marines and hellions; there is a good chance a banshee is on the way. Please don't slander people; especially pros. Do you expect players to just be sitting idle waiting for the next game? Some players will hop on the stream in between games especially if it their opponent coming up to see how long they have. I'd much rather them do this as it helps the tournament run smoothly; if it was live they'd have the opportunity to watch the preceding game so I don't have any issues with it. At one time MorroW was #1 on Eu and is an IEM Champion; then switched his race and still has an impressive win rate on ladder where you can't really cheat. If a player of his caliber was cheating, I think he would be winning a lot more tournaments. Last but not least. I have not seen anyone who scouts more then MorroW; he is one of the last people I would accuse of cheating. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On February 09 2011 03:59 Liquid`Tyler wrote: What does being well known or knowing a lot about WoW have to do with the issue? There are tons of famous people that have no idea whether good SC players who can get results without cheating will cheat when given the opportunity. Narrowing famous people down to people who also know a lot about WoW doesn't help. Join date on TL implies that he was ignorant of all the evidence this community has accumulated that contradicts his judgment and it turned out to be true. He didn't know how ridiculous he sounded to any TL veteran. It'd be like some new politician rising up in America questioning why flight security is so high, saying "terrorists wouldn't target planes or use them as weapons." I could have posted a timeline like Prior to March 20, 2010: reports of good sc players cheating are on TL March 20, 2010: totalbiscuit joins TL Conclusion: totalbiscuit doesn't know that good sc players cheat. I think that argument was fairly obvious. How you got to message board elitism based on join date is beyond me. Basically what Tyler just said. I didn't take offense to it (and he was totally on the money) so nobody else should either. Don't read between lines which aren't there to begin with. | ||
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
What research? Why even mention it if you aren't going to link it? You can't use subjective, personal feelings in a debate like this. One person's 'it ruins the live experience' is anothers 'I see no actual difference'. Well I can hardly link written down papers from the 90s from my home university, just google up on sports broadcasting research, how people perceive different ways to present sports etc. I've done some work on it while interning (NDA, sorry, again no numbers...does that disqualify me?) but I can tell you, live is always perceived as better than taped. There is no objective reason for it but as humans are naturally based on subjective perception we can't leave a point out of the discussion just because it's insanely hard to put a reliable number on it. "Viewer pleasure was down 20%" is just not a viable statement but neither is saying it doesn't matter because we can't make such a statement. Also, in your example there's a detrimental effect for some of the viewers. Would that be acceptable? Because some don't seem to care that others who see an effect don't count? I don't think you've been reading what I've said up to this point. I don't think you did either, plus you didn't read the thread a while back when the whole HuK issue came up with the ESL, so? | ||
alonndo
46 Posts
Join date on TL implies ....,Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010 You have some bold opinions for how little you know. You rly overdo the relevance of TL. | ||
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leakingpear
United Kingdom302 Posts
Oh COME ON! *gets on his segway* | ||
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PepperoniPiZZa
Sierra Leone1660 Posts
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holy_war
United States3590 Posts
On February 09 2011 04:52 PepperoniPiZZa wrote: How about somebody creates WaaaghTV or HLTV for sc2? ->problem solved Didn't WaaaghTV require you to have LAN mode? How would you do it without LAN? I have no idea about how the technical side of it works. | ||
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Smigi
United States328 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:20 Bleak wrote: His respect towards the competition and his opponent. There you go. Have respect towards the game. | ||
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nathangonmad
United Kingdom317 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010 I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know. Care to give us an example of cheats that have potential to win anything? | ||
Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
On February 09 2011 05:03 nathangonmad wrote: Care to give us an example of cheats that have potential to win anything? Dimaga, TT1, KawaiiRice, Testie, Yosh, Savior... off the top of my head. Unless you're looking for a current list of cheaters, which would be silly, because the above list shows good people can turn to cheaters if the opportunity is right. | ||
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Astromonkey
United States111 Posts
On February 09 2011 05:05 Chill wrote: Dimaga, TT1, KawaiiRice, Testie, Yosh, Savior... off the top of my head. Unless you're looking for a current list of cheaters, which would be silly, because the above list shows good people can turn to cheaters if the opportunity is right. The sad fact is that the easier it is to cheat, the more people are going to cheat. I was actually unaware of some of those players cheating formerly, but the fact that I've been following the scene about a year and never heard of these allegations until now signifies to me that the community is relatively forgiving re: cheating. That's another giant factor that will push players to cheat, even if they aren't "bad" people. As much as I love the feeling of live casts, the recent TL Open tournaments have demonstrated that replay-cast tournaments can be awesome too. Hopefully some easy for casters to implement solution arises, but the focus should be on prevention until then, I would think. It wouldn't hurt for replays of streamed tournament games to be scrutinized by the community either, to root out fishy play. | ||
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Justanx
United States240 Posts
On February 09 2011 05:05 Chill wrote: Dimaga, TT1, KawaiiRice, Testie, Yosh, Savior... off the top of my head. Unless you're looking for a current list of cheaters, which would be silly, because the above list shows good people can turn to cheaters if the opportunity is right. IMO these players have suffered the backlash,as is well deserved TY CHill | ||
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Doriboi
United States181 Posts
On February 09 2011 04:21 Ipp wrote: Keep in mind you are not as smart as a player. You don't need to see the building to see what is coming. If you know Terran is getting gas but only see marines and hellions; there is a good chance a banshee is on the way. Please don't slander people; especially pros. Do you expect players to just be sitting idle waiting for the next game? Some players will hop on the stream in between games especially if it their opponent coming up to see how long they have. I'd much rather them do this as it helps the tournament run smoothly; if it was live they'd have the opportunity to watch the preceding game so I don't have any issues with it. At one time MorroW was #1 on Eu and is an IEM Champion; then switched his race and still has an impressive win rate on ladder where you can't really cheat. If a player of his caliber was cheating, I think he would be winning a lot more tournaments. Last but not least. I have not seen anyone who scouts more then MorroW; he is one of the last people I would accuse of cheating. Ipp, This is the second time I've seen you come out and directly defend Morrow. The first was regarding the prize splitting issue with Sjow. So I want to tackle some points here if I can. The person stated that he built spore crawlers without even scouting it. Now if the poster could provide further replays to establish a pattern to Morrow's play, his argument would hold greater validity. But is it up to the poster to do that? Perhaps not. Now I will not say that Morrow is a cheater, because I think he is a very talented player. But his ethics are definitely questionable. And when your ethics are questioned by other people, other accusatory remarks are soon to follow. People still have a bad taste in their mouth from IEM vs Idra, and I still have a bad taste in my mouth over the prize splitting affair. So final remarks. Ipp I love that you care about the community and Starcraft. However I think you need to approach this from the point of view of a journalist rather than a friend of Morrow, because you are a journalist in the Starcraft scene. If this person has an opinion, you should not question his intelligence or degrade him in any way. He was stating an observing a game that felt questionable to him, and can you blame him for the questions he posed? | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
I mean if someone wanted to cheat in starcraft 2, in an online prize tourny, nothing's ever going to stop that person from doing so. It doesn't matter what measures you take because people will always be able to cheat their way through tourneys that aren't offline. If someone managed to register for a tourny I'm sure he'd have no problem maneuvering google to one of the many maphack releases that have been around since early beta. Yeah, same public softwares with practically identical code made it from beta to release without blizzard lifting a finger. Think they care about esports? As for casting replays, yeah sure. Lag is the fucking bane of esports and I want to see players being able to perform to their full potential, only thing that matters is that the games are good. The fact that blizzard failed to implement multiplayer replays simply boggles my mind. I mean how is that not a high priority implementation for a game that had several money tourneys running daily since the beginning of the fucking beta? I understand that they have a lot of stuff they want to cram into bnet 2.0 but come on, if an achievement system made it then there's no excuse for leaving multiplayer replay viewing or some serious warden improvements out. | ||
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Eliezar
United States481 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010 I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know. Just to echo what Tyler said. In starcraft 1...there was an amazing amount of cheating. Whether you want to get into Tillerman and eVERLAST or into the Texan whose dad helped him cheat at a live event! When money is involved some people will do whatever. Don't forget about the Korean pros that were banned for throwing games (win trading?) including Yellow. There are some people that won't cheat no matter what. I was watching a stream where the player actually asked the guy for a pause because he had the guys stream running on his other PC! Of course this was ladder. The good thing is that play in SC2 is so far advanced compared to SC1/BW that there isn't as many baseless accusations of cheating. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I had a friend who swore that Maynard map hacked him in PGL (Ninja+ or Liquid from Kali)...don't think it happened. Now you can watch the elite players and you see their instincts seem like map hacks. So if I was streaming live it would make me wonder. Hell, in ladder today I intercepted 3 medivac drops by a terran player. Probes patrolling, 3 observers on the map, and 5 phoenix can do that. Did it cross his mind that I might be hacking? If he had a stream would he have wondered if I or someone there with me was watching it and tipping me off? Cheating happens... 8( | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On February 09 2011 05:20 Doriboi wrote: Ipp, This is the second time I've seen you come out and directly defend Morrow. The first was regarding the prize splitting issue with Sjow. So I want to tackle some points here if I can. The person stated that he built spore crawlers without even scouting it. Now if the poster could provide further replays to establish a pattern to Morrow's play, his argument would hold greater validity. But is it up to the poster to do that? Perhaps not. Now I will not say that Morrow is a cheater, because I think he is a very talented player. But his ethics are definitely questionable. And when your ethics are questioned by other people, other accusatory remarks are soon to follow. People still have a bad taste in their mouth from IEM vs Idra, and I still have a bad taste in my mouth over the prize splitting affair. So final remarks. Ipp I love that you care about the community and Starcraft. However I think you need to approach this from the point of view of a journalist rather than a friend of Morrow, because you are a journalist in the Starcraft scene. If this person has an opinion, you should not question his intelligence or degrade him in any way. He was stating an observing a game that felt questionable to him, and can you blame him for the questions he posed? Can you enlighten me on what actions you're referring to when you talk about questionable ethics and especially your reference to IEM. The prize splitting affair was pretty much resolved when an admin explicitly stated on rakaka.se (god I hate that site) that he had initially allowed for them to simply throw and/or leave WO in the finals of each tourny. In the end some drama queens made a big deal of it and a head admin went in the opposite direction and prevented them from doing so, which only resulted in one of them dropping out of the tourny. I don't see what was so questionable about that. And if you had seen that game you'd know that morrow had every reason to suspect banshees despite not having actually seen a techlab starport. Oh and anyone that thinks replay casts take away all of the excitement definitely missed out on TSL 1 & 2. | ||
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
On February 09 2011 05:20 Doriboi wrote: Ipp, This is the second time I've seen you come out and directly defend Morrow. The first was regarding the prize splitting issue with Sjow. So I want to tackle some points here if I can. The person stated that he built spore crawlers without even scouting it. Now if the poster could provide further replays to establish a pattern to Morrow's play, his argument would hold greater validity. But is it up to the poster to do that? Perhaps not. Now I will not say that Morrow is a cheater, because I think he is a very talented player. But his ethics are definitely questionable. And when your ethics are questioned by other people, other accusatory remarks are soon to follow. People still have a bad taste in their mouth from IEM vs Idra, and I still have a bad taste in my mouth over the prize splitting affair. So final remarks. Ipp I love that you care about the community and Starcraft. However I think you need to approach this from the point of view of a journalist rather than a friend of Morrow, because you are a journalist in the Starcraft scene. If this person has an opinion, you should not question his intelligence or degrade him in any way. He was stating an observing a game that felt questionable to him, and can you blame him for the questions he posed? I literally just defended Spades a few posts back. I'm not picking favorites, I'm defending esports. Accusing high level players of cheating can seriously hurt this industry, do you think the industry will pick up sponsors if a rumors of high level people cheating comes up every frequently? There are many types of journalist, I'm one of the responsible ones who don't report facts before gathering evidence. The past offense of MorroW/SjoW was irresponsible journalism, no foul play was involved, go back and read that thread if you still have a foul taste. Edit: If a player suspects something do it in private with the player first I have seen this happen in a ZvP in tournament play. The Protoss went mass phoenix and was greeted by mass queen. He asked and the Zerg said you weren't getting warp gates and only had zealots. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On February 09 2011 04:42 Timerly wrote: Well I can hardly link written down papers from the 90s from my home university, just google up on sports broadcasting research, how people perceive different ways to present sports etc. I've done some work on it while interning (NDA, sorry, again no numbers...does that disqualify me?) but I can tell you, live is always perceived as better than taped. There is no objective reason for it but as humans are naturally based on subjective perception we can't leave a point out of the discussion just because it's insanely hard to put a reliable number on it. "Viewer pleasure was down 20%" is just not a viable statement but neither is saying it doesn't matter because we can't make such a statement. Also, in your example there's a detrimental effect for some of the viewers. Would that be acceptable? Because some don't seem to care that others who see an effect don't count? My point is you cannot give major consideration to a factor that cannot be proved to be major. If it's a subjective issue for a minority of people, should it really weigh heavily on the debate as to whether or not to cast from replays? How many people does it affect? Is it a prevalent attitude amongst the viewer base? Any demographic information for that? Because we don't know how important it is, it is not a good idea to imply importance where none necessarily exists, as a factor in a discussion of this kind. | ||
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Tomken
Norway1144 Posts
On February 09 2011 02:17 MrKozi wrote: I was watching last TLOpen some MorroW games. He was on DecemberTV stream answering accordingly to that casters were saying. Then ppl on chat start taking about cheating and MorroW said that he's only listening stream between games. You can belive him or not but I notice after that he was playing some random terran who went for cloack banshees and MorroW build some spore clawers without scouting anything... Its sad... MorroW isn't my favorited player anymore. For the first can you explain how a zerg can scout a decent terran..? Ofc you need to do things blindly as zerg, cause you mostly don't have any fucking clue what your opponent is doing. | ||
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