Stream cheating - Page 10

On February 09 2011 00:31 bmg4ever wrote:
@Ipp

i think what chill means is why forcing casters to cast the replays instead of live would be ridiculous, cause it just isn't.

of course forcing players to stream first person is just silly, nobody would ever do that, and it wouldnt solve the issue at all.

On September 07 2010 09:14 iCCup.Raelcun wrote:
Okay so Huk's thread got closed with the invitation to summarize the main points and make a more positive discussion so here goes:

See his original post here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150556

I will try and be much more clear in this OP about what I think should happen.

The big tournament issue

Huk has some valid points but the problem is saying that all events should be done from replays is just unreasonable. I'm all for compromising but this involves accepting that many events cannot use replays. Big $$ tournaments with large prize pools can easily say "send replays or else," or have enough organization to get a referee into each match to save replays and tell the players to save the replays as well and they might be asked for the replays if there is a problem.

Smaller tournaments

The problem are the smaller tournaments that are filling up the SC2 Tourneys forum, the smaller $$ tournaments that many times have large numbers of entrants. Chasing around 500 players for a $100 tournament and or trying to get enough referees to sit in each round 1 game is not going to happen. Tournaments such as the Gosucoaching weekly tournament are a good example of when live casting games is really the only option.

And these smaller tournaments are happening constantly there are weekly cups, smaller events that draw in a lot of players in that the top players want a chance to win some $$ and the other players want a chance to try and beat these players. These tournaments have a big role in the esports scene right now as there are far more of them than the gigantic tournaments.

edit: Yes well why don't we cast the last 16 players then? Well the main draw for these gigantic tournaments for a sponsor is the idea that the stream will be online for many hours straight with lots of plugging of their name over and over. Saying we will only cast the final 16 removes some incentive for lesser players to enter to possibly get on stream, and for the tournament to be sponsored. [/edit]

Lag

So for the big well organized tournaments yes you can try and organize replay casts but then the players themselves have to cooperate or face the consequences. The lag issue should not happen, tournaments need to have restrictions on the number of people in game this is a fact. Allowing 5 different streams into a game is just plain stupid, admins need to put their foots down and say "NO." This also means that if it's lagging the admins who are observing because they don't want to watch the stream also have to be willing to step out as well. These solutions work what needs to happen are the sweeping generalizations need to stop ie "only cast LAN live" "every other event can use replays." This is simply not true.

Other issues

The stress issue is covered by having an official stream and limiting the number of people who are allowed to cast as well because then the player can say "you're not on the list talk to the admin." If a player is being bothered by a someone wanting to stream they should be legit able to tell the admin "deal with this guy for me." The admins should be trying to keep as much stress because of the stream off the players as possible.

Sub point: admins

Admins need to be able to recognize that they made a mistake issues like what happened with Morrow should not happen. Basically both parties were at fault and they should be able to recognize this and say that you broke the rules but only cuz we fucked up and be willing to improve their policies for the good of the scene.

Conclusions

The final point, when it comes down to it the sponsors are paying for the tournament to be covered, the live coverage should not infringe upon the ability of the players to play. But at the same time players need to put up with slight annoyances in order to get that coverage out there so the sponsors can get their money's worth. This means sometimes you'll have to wait for the stream sometimes a guy will lag and it will take him a minute to leave (which he should), sometimes a streamer will drop and interrrupt the game. But both parties need to work together on this issue like I said about five times previously; the players can't say "without us there is no tour" and refuse to compromise and the streams can't say "without us there is no prize" and do the same thing. Middle grounds must be found.

So what does this mean? When discussing this don't talk in imperatives saying this MUST happen or else. Try to keep the discussion more constructive than just saying "no it must happen my way because I"m more important." Or else the discussion will go the same way as the last one, with it being closed.

On February 09 2011 00:26 Skomski wrote:
No one will ever stream cheating because cheating is so much easier with a external maphack:

On February 09 2011 00:27 Ipp wrote:
I didn't want to go into #2 as it is much hard to do then is sounds and requires a lot of thinking of how to enforce it; additionally I could write an entire essay on repercussions this has.

On February 09 2011 00:45 Keregan wrote:
Let the cheaters cheat, People that cheat are just sad and should not play.
There is nothing you can do about people that "Stream cheat" (If they use their real ID + is in chat you can catch them, but why would they)
I have seen a lot of streams from tournaments where people seem to cheat, Although; If it's an online tournament, You have to get the luck to get your own game casted aswel before you are able to cheat in the first place.
The only way to prevent "stream cheats" or friends spectating telling you what to do (On skype, Teamspeak, Ventrilo etc.) would be to only cast replays, Wich by me would seem like the best idea actually, Since it prevents the cheating by 100%. (Obviously not maphacks).

On February 09 2011 00:47 Ipp wrote:
Let me get this straight - casting from relays is not ridiculous, I say it's a smart idea whenever I get to Ro16 in TL Opens and people complained. What is ridiculous is doing 30 things to prevent cheating.

I don't see how it's taken out of context just casting from replays is not hard at all.

On February 09 2011 00:27 Ipp wrote:


I didn't want to go into #2 as it is much hard to do then is sounds and requires a lot of thinking of how to enforce it; additionally I could write an entire essay on repercussions this has.

On February 09 2011 00:47 Ipp wrote:
Let me get this straight - casting from relays is not ridiculous, I say it's a smart idea whenever I get to Ro16 in TL Opens and people complained. What is ridiculous is doing 30 things to prevent cheating.

I don't see how it's taken out of context just casting from replays is not hard at all.

On February 09 2011 01:05 Morfildur wrote:


A problem with only casting replays is that many smaller casters can't get hold of them. There aren't just big casters but also newcomers who like to cast small tournaments unrelated to the main casters just to make a name for themselves.

Ofc it doesn't matter for big tournaments, but for the small, regular tournaments the small casters can be important to make the tournament better known to players and viewers.

On February 09 2011 01:49 Ipp wrote:



#2 - The "Live" feeling would be killed by a delay too by your explanation. If you cast replays after the game is played it is like having a "fool proof" delay; it is still live by commentators point of view.