EPTToo many people are talking down on casters.
Stream cheating - Page 9
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
Too many people are talking down on casters. | ||
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Zeyro
Germany16 Posts
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On February 08 2011 23:28 Dauntless wrote: Why did TotalBiscuit get a warning? Everything he said was right! Too many people are talking down on casters. It's not always about "what" you say, but also "how". I think TB already is getting used to warnings, but stating his opinions differently just wouldn't be his style. It would be like IdrA GGing after losing to 2rax 4 times in a row in a Bo7 after being 3-0 in the lead. I love TBs style (and his awesome voice and humour  ) | ||
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Darthozzan
Sweden136 Posts
Also, until software lets you put in a large delay I don't forsee that happening and I don't really see any streaming software have this alternative for quite a bit. But I'd recommend asking the people at X-Split or something to try and add this in, but I think you can keep dreaming about it personally... | ||
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DreamScaR
Canada2127 Posts
Also, since people are always telling casters and streamers to "Just add a delay!". It's already expensive to cast, you're typically paying much more for your internet than the average user. Probably needing a beefier computer to be able to handle the output at a high enough quality so that people don't complain that it's not on at least the high setting. Not everyone has access to oodles of money to add such things as a delay. Myself personally, I can't even get an internet connection where I am fast enough to stream, but I still cast as a co-caster. Honestly, if you have that much issue with things like this. Don't watch streams at all. Load up the replay and enjoy it that way. | ||
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kellymilkies
Singapore1393 Posts
Like if there was no scouting done and if he obviously chooses a different route or cancels an attack, it will be fairly obvious that there is something weird going on. Justin TV is implementing a delay system where you can delay your stream for minutes after the tournament. At the end of the day, if someone wants to cheat, they will find a way to. When the player who win or gain recognition through winning online tournament and playing sensationally but fail HORRIBLY to perform in offline events, that's when its probably the end of that person's gaming credibility and career. | ||
Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
On February 08 2011 23:48 kellymilkies wrote: It is also obvious when someone is stream cheating. No, it actually isn't. You can make educated guesses, but you can't be 100% sure, and you definitely can't take action against someone on a hunch. | ||
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AimForTheBushes
United States1760 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: Nothing, other than the fact that if they're caught cheating they get blacklisted from every tournament in existence so it's not worth doing. ... no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating. What a beautiful and naive place England must be... You can't name one semi-competitive popular sport, all the way from football down to chess, where players aren't constantly getting caught for cheating. Video games are no exception.. | ||
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
Not everyone is this trustworthy, additionally lets not forget there are other methods to cheating such as map hacking. I'm not sure how strong blizzard looks at map hacks in custom games and all the player would have to do is win 1 tournament, and his/her license has been paid for. Blizzard to my knowledge doesn't have a public database of map hackers like BW did, so the player would just have to buy another copy and he still gains money. There are only two ways to absolutely prevent cheating: 1.) Live event 2.) Only tournament admin in game, players forced to provide a FPVod or Stream themselves and casters go off replays -- which is ridiculous (entire statement). Streams aren't the only problem: where there's a will, there's a way. Edit: Changed a few words around to avoid confusion. I am in support of replays, but in no way should it be "to definitely rule out cheating". | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On February 08 2011 22:56 Morfildur wrote: The simultaneus reading and writing will definatly be a problem for normal HDDs. SSDs might work, though a RAID setup might improve the performance, too. A big problem should be the on-the-fly encoding of the flash files while still having the game open and lots of action going on, it requires quite a powerfull PC. You could use a capture card on the second PC, capture the output of the first and do the encoding/streaming there. For 10 minutes delay a PC with 2-4GB ram should even be able to keep the encoded file in memory if you write to new files every ~30 minutes and delete the old ones, removing the need for expensive SSDs or RAID systems. Hmm.... maybe i should start developing a "streaming box" that does all that as a black box, you just buy it, plug a VGA/DVI/HDMI cable in, configure your stream, configure delay and it works automagically :p Awesome response . I figured it would require a strong computer to pull off, I had no doubt doing all that while running a modern game on max settings would be a daunting task. I kind of went off the assumption that most competitive players who would need to utilize a built in delay for fairness would have expensive computers that could stream/play in HD. Since I imagine it would be optional, hopefully it wouldn't be a huge problem. Then again maybe I am underselling what a "Powerful" PC is in this scenario. I would assume a modern quad core with a crossfire set up would be decent enough. I have a 970 and 2 5770's. Eventually I will be mixing in an SSD to finish the set up, I imagine my computer would be able to handle the read/write and gameplay. 2 cores for SC2 and the other 2 for the constant read/write and streaming. Although, I admit 2 cores for the second half is probably a bit stressful, since it would basically be rendering video nonstop while streaming it. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25986 Posts
On February 09 2011 00:14 Ipp wrote: Having live streams of the finals just makes it so players don't have to go out of their way to cheat. Heck, I recall some games back in beta where people messaged a certain pro in middle of a game the build his opponent was doing; he respectfully paused let his opponent know and went on busy. Not everyone is this trustworthy, additionally lets not forget there are other methods to cheating such as map hacking. I'm not sure how strong blizzard looks at map hacks in custom games and all the player would have to do is win 1 tournament, and his/her license has been paid for. Blizzard to my knowledge doesn't have a public database of map hackers like BW did, so the player would just have to buy another copy and he still gains money. There are only two ways to absolutely prevent cheating: 1.) Live event 2.) Only tournament admin in game, players forced to provide a FPVod or Stream themselves. Casters go off replays; which is ridiculous. Streams aren't the only problem: where there's a will, there's a way. Why is option 2 ridiculous? I don't get why you choose to just gloss over as if it's a foregone conclusion when it's at the heart of the discussion. | ||
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bmg4ever
Germany74 Posts
On February 09 2011 00:14 Ipp wrote: Not everyone is this trustworthy, additionally lets not forget there are other methods to cheating such as map hacking. I'm not sure how strong blizzard looks at map hacks in custom games and all the player would have to do is win 1 tournament, and his/her license has been paid for. Blizzard to my knowledge doesn't have a public database of map hackers like BW did, so the player would just have to buy another copy and he still gains money. still map hacking is quite easy to proof for tournament admins, especially in starcraft 2, while stream cheating isn't. with a maphack you still need to look at things ingame , which will very fast become suspicious while watching the replay in the first person view. | ||
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LtOin
Belgium19 Posts
On February 09 2011 00:15 Chill wrote: Why is option 2 ridiculous? I don't get why you choose to just gloss over as if it's a foregone conclusion when it's at the heart of the discussion. Option 2 would feel ridiculous to many people because we've gotten so used to completely live streams. Not to say that it's not worth changing our ways to adapt to a more reliable way of doing things. I would prefer to have reliable stream delays though. That has a more live feeling to it and live is usually more fun to watch for some reason. | ||
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Skomski
Germany43 Posts
- Undetectable for Starcraft 2 - No bandwith for the stream - Only the important information And yeah I know because I am a programmer. No online tournament is safe. | ||
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Ipp
United States456 Posts
On February 09 2011 00:15 Chill wrote: Why is option 2 ridiculous? I don't get why you choose to just gloss over as if it's a foregone conclusion when it's at the heart of the discussion. I didn't want to go into #2 as it is much hard to do then is sounds and requires a lot of thinking of how to enforce it; additionally I could write an entire essay on repercussions this has. - It can create video lag for players which could give the person with a better CPU an advantage. I guess you can justify that with you are a professional gamer get a good computer. - What if you run out of space while creating the VOD? Or it goes corrupt. Therefore not being able to provide a VOD after winning -- it's down to judgment calls and there is almost always an upset party. - What if the stream crashes as they do from time to time. Same situation as above. - What if the player has dual monitors and has his opponents stream up on the other screen? Guess you need to password protect streams. - What if a players stream gets leaked, kind of hard to keep what happens in the game a secret. Not only will you have to deal with people spoiling the result but actually spoiling the game. - What if map hack goes on the second monitor, it wouldn't be hard to add a feature to such program to just export the minimap to another window and be able to place it outside of Stream/VOD area. Edit: Cheaters are not obvious when watched; especially if a "famed" player did it. Everyone would be like omg thats so high level, or he's so good! | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:26 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Joined TL.net Saturday, 20th of March 2010 I think that explains that! You have some bold opinions for how little you know. Meh, TotalBiscuit is pretty well known, but more for WoW. I think what he's saying is that the good players, in the good big tournaments, are not the kind of people that would usually cheat. He's wrong because it has happened before. Of course he is mistaken, but to attack him for when he joined the forum as some sort of way to discredit what he said; isn't that aimed in the wrong direction? How about just pointing out the logical fallacy of what he said, like how he made a blanket statement with no room for variables whatsoever. To me, elitism on message boards about how long you have been around just bothers me, no matter how important you are, you can still look pretty bad trying to show it off. On the topic, there is hardly anything that would stop that happening, but a good tournament will do the new system of only allowing people to cast the replays, and obs were only tournament organizers. I like that new method, and I think it's quite effective. | ||
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Sein
United States1811 Posts
On February 09 2011 00:21 bmg4ever wrote: still map hacking is quite easy to proof for tournament admins, especially in starcraft 2, while stream cheating isn't. with a maphack you still need to look at things ingame , which will very fast become suspicious while watching the replay in the first person view. There are maphacks that let you lock the cam onto one spot whenever you want. Well, I suppose maphacks at least can be detected, while you can't really prove that someone's been watching the tournament stream while playing. | ||
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bmg4ever
Germany74 Posts
i think what chill means is why forcing casters to cast the replays instead of live would be ridiculous, cause it just isn't. of course forcing players to stream first person is just silly, nobody would ever do that, and it wouldnt solve the issue at all. | ||
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PatouPower
Canada1119 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
There is ample proof not only in the BW foreigner scene, but Pro League and within the MSL and OSL as well. Several big names were caught. Use some common sense. There are several programs out there that aren't detectable and only an idiot would make it obvious that they are cheating. A 5-10 minute delay would go a long way to stop abusers, but even then you would have to put more safety guards up as well. For example, have the caster as the only observer/ref (like they did with the TSL Open), or cast from replays. Unless you put foolproof safeguards for online tournaments players will still cheat. Even then, players can still abuse offline systems as I've already said in KeSPA sanctioned events. Illegal gambling can pose a big problem still. | ||
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