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On February 08 2011 07:31 KevinIX wrote:
Of course, it's pretty easy to tell if someone is cheating, just as easy as if they were maphacking.
That just isn't true. Look if the person is a complete idiot about it then sure, people will notice. But if you're not a complete idiot (which I think applies to most people in the starcraft community). Then you aren't going to respond too obviously.
Just imagine the situation of a player going for dt's. It would be pretty obvious to build an overseer right when the caster spots the shrine. But a dark shrine takes 100 game seconds to build. You can hardly accuse a player of cheating just because he gets an overseer somewhere in that time.
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HotBid and Tyler are 100% correct. I may not have been involved with the SC2 tournament scene for long, but from my experience playing pro events in Magic the Gathering when I was younger I know cheating is 100% a problem to be worried about. While most are honest, there are always the small percent of players that are not. The real world is no different, most people are good, its the small number of bad people that ruin it for everyone else.
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What strikes me the most in this thread and just teamliquid in general is the forgiveness of the SC community is pretty unique. I made the biggest impact in online gaming through FPS and once someone was found to be a cheater they were basically never allowed back... ever. Bans were essentially lifetime even if leagues stipulated 6months-1year. Cheaters were treated like cancer, their only option to get back in were to smurf.
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feel like if someone is caught stream-watching or something... youll basically have the rest of your competitve career get screwed over, so i wouldnt say its worth it to win some online tourny
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On February 08 2011 08:40 RyanRushia wrote:
feel like if someone is caught stream-watching or something... youll basically have the rest of your competitve career get screwed over, so i wouldnt say its worth it to win some online tourny
Doesn't stop many people from doing it and some of those who have been caught still have active competitive careers.
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Not really related to the OP but about the upcoming implementation of "delay" by justin.tv
I don't know what you guys think about that, but I'm looking forward to blizzard's implementation of a synchronized way to watch replays. Having a 15 min delay with the real game and with the casters (ie justin.tv implementation of delay) is more like watching a VOD with fast encoding for me.
The current way of running the TL opens is my favorite way of casting an online event because the casters are synchronized with the chat and everyone involved discovers the action at the same time. Also, a game with 10 observers streaming leads sometime to lag, and can also be a source of cheating. The only cons of this method is
- obviously when there is no more replay to cast, the caster has some time to fill, not a big deal
- the actual delay between the casters when they are 2, it's frustrating to hear the off-screen caster saying something totally off ("oh what a nice baneling !"... what ?! 1 mins ago, or not yet happening), That's why I tend prefer single caster with the actual format (while waiting any kind of coordination method).
But it really looks like the most "fair" way to provide live entertainement without disturbing the players and the games.
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If their are humans involved, there are cheaters. One person is always better than the other guy, so said other guy will always look for tactics to gain advantages in other ways. Human nature.
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Nothing, just respect for the other player. Maybe some people do it, but thats also the reason the last couple of rounds are casted from replays, not live.
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On February 08 2011 08:53 .Trex wrote:
Not really related to the OP but about the upcoming implementation of "delay" by justin.tv
I don't know what you guys think about that, but I'm looking forward to blizzard's implementation of a synchronized way to watch replays. Having a 15 min delay with the real game and with the casters (ie justin.tv implementation of delay) is more like watching a VOD with fast encoding for me.
The current way of running the TL opens is my favorite way of casting an online event because the casters are synchronized with the chat and everyone involved discovers the action at the same time. Also, a game with 10 observers streaming leads sometime to lag, and can also be a source of cheating. The only cons of this method is
- obviously when there is no more replay to cast, the caster has some time to fill, not a big deal
- the actual delay between the casters when they are 2, it's frustrating to hear the off-screen caster saying something totally off ("oh what a nice baneling !"... what ?! 1 mins ago, or not yet happening), That's why I tend prefer single caster with the actual format (while waiting any kind of coordination method).
But it really looks like the most "fair" way to provide live entertainement without disturbing the players and the games.
The thing is, with stream delay, you really don't realise it's even there. Especially with online tournaments, how would you know that the games are delayed by 10 minutes or actually happening right now? You won't see a difference, the casters don't see a difference (because the footage is buffered, they don't know when it's actually airing).
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On February 08 2011 09:06 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2011 08:53 .Trex wrote:
Not really related to the OP but about the upcoming implementation of "delay" by justin.tv
I don't know what you guys think about that, but I'm looking forward to blizzard's implementation of a synchronized way to watch replays. Having a 15 min delay with the real game and with the casters (ie justin.tv implementation of delay) is more like watching a VOD with fast encoding for me.
The current way of running the TL opens is my favorite way of casting an online event because the casters are synchronized with the chat and everyone involved discovers the action at the same time. Also, a game with 10 observers streaming leads sometime to lag, and can also be a source of cheating. The only cons of this method is
- obviously when there is no more replay to cast, the caster has some time to fill, not a big deal
- the actual delay between the casters when they are 2, it's frustrating to hear the off-screen caster saying something totally off ("oh what a nice baneling !"... what ?! 1 mins ago, or not yet happening), That's why I tend prefer single caster with the actual format (while waiting any kind of coordination method).
But it really looks like the most "fair" way to provide live entertainement without disturbing the players and the games. The thing is, with stream delay, you really don't realise it's even there. Especially with online tournaments, how would you know that the games are delayed by 10 minutes or actually happening right now? You won't see a difference, the casters don't see a difference (because the footage is buffered, they don't know when it's actually airing).
i believe that the casters will be casting live and that the chat will be 10 minutes late, relative to the caster.
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Best bw foreigner for years,  Testie, was cheating and this is all the demonstration we need for decades to come. Gotta lock shit down.
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i believe that the casters will be casting live and that the chat will be 10 minutes late, relative to the caster.
How would that matter? Everyone who is watching is watching it with the same delay. Unless the casters are interacting with the chat (why would they be doing this?), there's no way the viewers could tell if there was 0 delay or 20 minutes delay.
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I think there should be at least a 5 minute delay for casts before I can fully trust the top players to not cheat, but even then there is possibility for abuse if there are corrupt observers. Of course the nature of this cheating won't be through the player watching the stream but through a friend relaying the information by phone/skype. Let's not forget TSL2, I still haven't forgiven Dimaga and the other abusers.
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I agree with TotalBiscuit that 10-20 min delays are innocuous and viewers should tolerate or ignore them (which will be easy to do) when tournaments start implementing them.
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It would be interesting as a player to finish a match and then tune into the stream to watch your own game casted live. Hahah.
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Cheating is incredibly easy.
Last week I played the Reddit Open, got matched up against dde first round (LOLOL) and so my game got casted, I could have flipped my lap top open at any time and just watched the stream. I didn't, partially 'cause of honor and partially cause I can't learn well from a replay where I cheated in ^^
In any case, people staying that cheater's careers are destroyed, well that's simply not true. A lot of people don't have any idea people like Dimaga, TT1 and Spades all cheated in one form or another.
The Justin.tv delay seems the most viable solution. I think their is something to be said for doing things relatively live (esp. things like clan wars to get that team atmosphere going), and that seems the best way to do it.
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well, if i were playing for a lot of money, i would set my camera behind me and have my ingame sounds on speakers so people could tell i wasnt cheating. (just in case people accused me. but hey thats just me im really paranoid (:
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On February 08 2011 01:31 knL wrote:
I also think thats kind of a problem. But you have to life with that until its normal to have a delay on the tounament streams. Also "getting caught" abusing it is not that easy. I mean if you intercept a drop or blind counter something you can always argue on luck.
btw I think tyler is in a bad mood :o
Oh man, reminds me of a 3v3 I had where I was trying to harass with Mutas. En Route to mineral lines throughout the game, they netted 8 floating OC/CC kills (5 of which were floating to Typhon's island expands and the other 3 were headed to/from the gold expand), Five waves of cloak banshees totaling over 20 banshees in all, 30 worker kills on saturation transfers to expansions, 2 waves of VR attacks, 3 waves of Ovie Hunting Vikings en route to my base, and a massive blob of banelings meant to bust our door and any defenders at it.
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8751 Posts
On February 08 2011 02:18 TotalBiscuit wrote:
Delay is a technical aspect that only Justin.tv seems to be trying to implement right now and nobody's come up with a local software buffering solution yet.
I'm not sure if this counts as a solution since it uses a local network and 2 PC's, but I was able to set up a delay by doing the following: The computer that is in-game records screen and saves to an .flv file on its hard drive in a folder that is shared over a local network. A second computer on the local network opens the .flv file 10 minutes later and streams (to ustream, jtv, etc) a media player playing the file. As long as the first computer keeps writing the file, the second computer will keep on playing it. In other words, the video doesn't simply stop when it gets through the data the file had when it was opened. It keeps on streaming. Disk space isn't a concern because the video is compressed so you can stream at 720p while using up ~1GB/hour or less.
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On February 08 2011 11:47 KevinIX wrote:
It would be interesting as a player to finish a match and then tune into the stream to watch your own game casted live. Hahah.
Would be pretty awesome honestly.
As regards to Justin.tv's delay, when I spoke to them about it they said, theoretically, you can have an almost infinite delay, but it's highly reliant on how powerful a machine you have (specifically, how much RAM you've got). I'll give their new setup a try when I get the chance and report back, it's still in beta and not open to everyone.
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EPT
