EPTEdit: I want to stress that having a delay that long. or even longer is absolutely neccessary for the integrity of a tournament. When funcasts, casted random honmatches were streamed but not delayed the casters would sometimes mess with the players, saying things that didn't happen. Much fun was had.
Stream cheating - Page 6
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
Hadron.
Norway104 Posts
Edit: I want to stress that having a delay that long. or even longer is absolutely neccessary for the integrity of a tournament. When funcasts, casted random honmatches were streamed but not delayed the casters would sometimes mess with the players, saying things that didn't happen. Much fun was had. | ||
|
Keitzer
United States2509 Posts
in fact streaming promotes cheating (if you think about it). i can't wait until jtv releases their delay... will make for a better viewing experience... since even if it's not 100% live, it's still pretty damn close. | ||
|
Nazarid
United States445 Posts
| ||
|
XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
On February 08 2011 05:05 Keitzer wrote: absolutely nothing... in fact streaming promotes cheating (if you think about it). i can't wait until jtv releases their delay... will make for a better viewing experience... since even if it's not 100% live, it's still pretty damn close. Yeah, such delay has been needed for a loooong time (from many other communities aswell, I assume). Awesome to see a site finally doing something about it. Hopefully the other streaming sites will follow suit and keep up with the competition. + Show Spoiler + edit: typo.  | ||
|
MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On February 08 2011 04:56 DusTerr wrote: besides local events, casting replays or delayed casts... have each player stream their desktop. Unfortunately it would still be possible to get around that (2nd pc watching stream, etc) you can make them wear a camera-helmet and see everything through their eyes | ||
|
Signum
Canada99 Posts
| ||
|
MindRush
Romania916 Posts
On February 08 2011 06:41 Signum wrote: you dont even need to actually watch it, you could just have the stream on a minimized browser tab and listen. or listen with a phone. or a 2nd pc | ||
|
Parnage
United States7414 Posts
Sadly, the only sure way to do this would be replays and while I am not the largest fan of the replay system it's the best they've got at the moment. If what Justin.tv is doing is true then that's fantastic and will only prove just how serious Justin is about helping tournament organizers and just in general being awesome for figuring out how to get a delay going with no ill effects. As a fan you gotta believe the players are not cheating however, it's just not something you want to think about. It ruins the fun so I can see why lots of folks would think it minor issue. Hell, no one wants to hear that the player they've loved to see play is actually getting fed info from some guy in his room watching the stream. | ||
|
Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
| ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27154 Posts
On February 08 2011 03:42 semm wrote: Despite some of the classless responses to the contrary, TB is on average correct. It's the same as in life. It's really super easy to purposefully bounce a ton of checks around town. So long as they didn’t have your name on them, you could get away with it an awfully long time. And yet, check bouncing isn't a major problem. For some, they don't do it because they know it's just wrong, for others its the fear of consequences. I don't think if someone said 'People really don't bounce checks on purpose' folks wouldn't jump down their throat Cashing bad checks does not equal cheating in an online tournament. That is a terrible analogy. Despite some of the ignorance on display in this thread, the entire history of StarCraft (and there is a continuum between the two games, no divide) is riddled with evidence of cheating and abuse. That is what some of the more experienced members are trying to tell some of the people who are newer to the scene. | ||
|
apalemorning
Canada509 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:20 Bleak wrote: His respect towards the competition and his opponent. you have a lot of faith in humanity, dude. if there's any kind of cash prize involved, if most people can stream watch and get away with it. they will do it. oops, im cynical. | ||
|
shindigs
United States4795 Posts
In interviews with old BW progamers, they even admit to map hacking in the early BW ladders because that was the only way to rise to the top, as everyone else was map hacking. It was near impossible to win otherwise. It is a sad truth that online games will be riddled with some sort of cheating. There are lots of controversies in eSports when I think about it O_O Pretty crazy scene. | ||
|
mmianzde
Canada30 Posts
| ||
|
KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
Of course, it's pretty easy to tell if someone is cheating, just as easy as if they were maphacking. | ||
|
udgnim
United States8024 Posts
if some tournament makes a rule that any match of their choosing can be live streamed, then players can just voice their opinion on the rule and not participate in that tournament | ||
|
Ksyper
Bulgaria665 Posts
| ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36379 Posts
On February 08 2011 02:31 Mentos wrote: So if he wasn't ' a relatively well known caster ' you wouldn't say this with all due respect? Just fyi, this condescending tone is completely out of place, especially coming from an administrator. I didn't intend it to be condescending. I was just venting a little frustration because we've probably spent hundreds of man hours dealing with cheating and abuse. From the flag method checks in TSL1 to the anti-abuse efforts in TSL2 to the replay casting in current TL Opens, we're trying to maintain an atmosphere of fair play. It's very hard. I'd love more than anything to not have to do this. Sure, it'd be easier to throw our hands up in the air and "trust" players, but given the history of cheating and abuse that would be quite irresponsible of us. That would be the easy way out, and our community has always had the highest standards of fair play. Yeah, it might be inconvenient or even hurt our broadcasts. But it's the right thing to do. Ever thought that some may look at things from a different perspective, and would rather assume that the majority of the player base is actually honourable and with integrity? Of course that there are bad apples, have been and will be, but why would their presence dictate such pessimistic view on the scene as a whole? Assuming that a player with the potential to do well in a big tournament, doesn't need to watch a stream to know what his opponent is or may be doing is a totally valid way of thinking in my opinion, so I don't really understand why anything in what you quoted boggles your mind. It's not pessimism, it's pragmatism. Of course I'd love to trust every player. But given the history of hacking and abusing in the international BW scene, it's pretty ridiculous to think we can just trust everyone because it's a new game. Obviously, most players play fair. Only a minority of players cheat. However, as history has shown, many top players are willing to exploit any advantage they can get to win money or fame or whatever. So yes, it's mind boggling to me that someone who knows even a fraction of the history of BW would believe "any player who can do well" would not cheat. It's happened over, and over, and over again. TotalBiscuit is a reasonable person. He is relatively new and didn't know the history behind it, if he did I'm sure his opinion would be different. Maybe I was a little harsh with my words. But I think when talking and dealing with cheating, as well as opinions that make it easier to get away with cheating, a little extra harshness is warranted. | ||
|
Bonham
Canada655 Posts
On February 08 2011 01:21 TotalBiscuit wrote: But in any tournament that matters, no player with the potential to win anything, would risk cheating. What about the Tour de France? What about the Olympics? What about the match-fixing in SC1? Big stakes just increase the incentive to cheat and not get caught. | ||
|
Hot_Bid
Braavos36379 Posts
On February 08 2011 02:18 TotalBiscuit wrote: Well there ya go, that's me told. So assume players are dishonourable self-serving cheats with no regard for the competitive scene until proven otherwise, no problem. That is not what I am suggesting at all. I know you're being a bit flippant / sarcastic, but it should be said that obviously you can't (and shouldn't) treat every player like a criminal. You can treat every player fairly like they are an honest citizen. But you should also put safeguards in place to prevent the 1% or 5% or 10% that would cheat if given the opportunity. Tournament organizers should always plan for the worse case scenarios / players. On the subject of live streams Hot_Bid, you know for a fact that's not going to happen. Players and organisers are extremely unreliable when it comes to getting replays to casters on time. I'm still waiting for replays promised by Dreamhack months ago that should have been sent on the day, to cover a series that did not get cast. There have been plenty of issues in the past where players have not sent replays on-time and you simply cannot do a tournament live-stream with significant delays like that, people will switch off. The way we do it with TL Open is that we do not allow the players to advance in the bracket without uploading replays. We also have referees in every game past the Ro16 to ensure replays are delivered on time. I know not every tournament organizer has the man power or coding to do this, so yes oftentimes tournaments have to make a cost-benefit decision about whether to put these safeguards in place. Additionally, we do not allow observers outside the official caster, which is another safeguard (there have been instances of obs helping players). It is a trade off, and I would not be surprised if cheating did occur already in many of these tournaments. I don't want to bash on other tournaments because it's obvious there are very reasonable practical concerns with doing things like we do with regards to fairness. I don't fault anyone for not putting all these checks in place, but pretending it doesn't happen is not responsible. "We know they may cheat, but given X and Y and Z we just have to trust them" is just very different than "Nobody cheats, no player with potential would cheat." One is a pragmatic view, the other is just naive. Delay is a technical aspect that only Justin.tv seems to be trying to implement right now and nobody's come up with a local software buffering solution yet. SCReddit's delay had problems so they had to disable it, but I had a word with Justin.tv's COO a couple of days ago and they claim to have resolved that (plus they're getting servers in Europe to alleviate the problems some European viewers have). Once a delay is implemented of 3-5 minutes we'd probably see that as acceptable and stream live. Hopefully this technology comes soon. | ||
|
Puremiss
United States232 Posts
On February 08 2011 02:18 TotalBiscuit wrote: Delay is a technical aspect that only Justin.tv seems to be trying to implement right now and nobody's come up with a local software buffering solution yet. SCReddit's delay had problems so they had to disable it, but I had a word with Justin.tv's COO a couple of days ago and they claim to have resolved that (plus they're getting servers in Europe to alleviate the problems some European viewers have). I've heard about Justin.tv's implementation, however they are not the only ones. I know firsthand that own3d.tv has implemented a very successful 10minute (or 15 i cannot remember) delay. We had a huge HoN tournament finals recently where it ran with no problems whatsoever. It is still in early stages, and takes an immense amount of resources on the part of the provider, but hopefully the technology will be refined so it can be implemented more widespread. I think another factor to this is that there has not been much demand for delay in SC2 unlike other games, (dota/hon) from tournament organizers and the viewers. Of course it is natural that viewers want to see things live as they happen and it is not to be expected that the viewers would pressure streamers to add delay. However an interesting thing that I've witnessed is that in the dota/hon community, the notion of livestreaming a tournament without delay is ludicrous, even one without prize money. The difference is that the assumption from the community in hon/dota seem to be that the players are bound to cheat with a livestream, whereas so far in SC2, the assumption I've seen as a very prevalent viewpoint is that players are "honorable" and would not think of cheating. I personally lean towards the hon/dota viewpoint but of course it is extremely controversial and really depends on your perspective on the world. | ||
| ||
