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On February 09 2011 05:40 TotalBiscuit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 04:42 Timerly wrote:What research? Why even mention it if you aren't going to link it?
You can't use subjective, personal feelings in a debate like this. One person's 'it ruins the live experience' is anothers 'I see no actual difference'. Well I can hardly link written down papers from the 90s from my home university, just google up on sports broadcasting research, how people perceive different ways to present sports etc. I've done some work on it while interning (NDA, sorry, again no numbers...does that disqualify me?) but I can tell you, live is always perceived as better than taped. There is no objective reason for it but as humans are naturally based on subjective perception we can't leave a point out of the discussion just because it's insanely hard to put a reliable number on it. "Viewer pleasure was down 20%" is just not a viable statement but neither is saying it doesn't matter because we can't make such a statement. Also, in your example there's a detrimental effect for some of the viewers. Would that be acceptable? Because some don't seem to care that others who see an effect don't count? My point is you cannot give major consideration to a factor that cannot be proved to be major. If it's a subjective issue for a minority of people, should it really weigh heavily on the debate as to whether or not to cast from replays? How many people does it affect? Is it a prevalent attitude amongst the viewer base? Any demographic information for that? Because we don't know how important it is, it is not a good idea to imply importance where none necessarily exists, as a factor in a discussion of this kind.
Again, from a purely logical point of view disregarding an unknown factor is just as stupid as overestimating it. You simply don't know and leaving everything we don't know out of the picture would make pretty much everything pointless. I told you, it's a factor and a big one at that, statistically speaking people have a very strong (0,5% error iirc) preference for live games. You can't measure how much more they like it (there were studies about this kind of thing as part of "utility" research in economics, majorly inconclusive) but you can know it's that way.
To go a bit off topic: read some consumer behaviour themed books when you have the time, you will understand why objectivity is unreachable when talking about people and their decisions.
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On February 09 2011 05:37 Ipp wrote:
I literally just defended Spades a few posts back. I'm not picking favorites, I'm defending esports. Accusing high level players of cheating can seriously hurt this industry, do you think the industry will pick up sponsors if a rumors of high level people cheating comes up every frequently? There are many types of journalist, I'm one of the responsible ones who don't report facts before gathering evidence. The past offense of MorroW/SjoW was irresponsible journalism, no foul play was involved, go back and read that thread if you still have a foul taste.
It didn't become a large issue because the admin of the tournament nixed that idea. I commend you on your post with Spades and the dedication to e-sports. You are correct that it will be difficult to continue to sponsor e-sports with consistent accusations of cheating. But accusations in cheating in sports is nothing new. From MLB, Cycling, NFL, Hockey and Golf, there will always be people asking questions whether this player is doing this. But is it wrong to ask these questions? If MrKizu doesn't do it, who will? Sadly the world needs the MrKizus, Matt Taibbis, Bob Woodwards, TotalBiscuits, and Ipps. Some questions will be slanderous, some will just be suspicions. To take on a personal crusade to eradicate these questions is a futile effort.
The foul play was the mere thought of splitting prizes. It opens up a can of worms akin to the Super Smash Bros. debacle at MLG. How do we know which games are legitimate, who was trying their best, etc. I did read the entire post, Sjow came out and apologized, Morrow defended himself, and you defended Morrow. I don't think it was bad journalism at all. The story eventually died down, and both players are still enjoying their successes. I just don't think you should be quick to defend any player, I'm quite confident in the community to do it.
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On the topic of delays I was under the impression that the people from honcast have been using delays for their live casts. Or well I know for sure that they always had a ~7 min delay whenever they were casting live matches.
I'm not sure how they achieved the delay though, but I was under the impression that they used some software they had bought and seem to be working good.
Sadly I haven't been following honcast for the last few months and a lot of things seem to have changed, but if people were interested I'm sure it would be possible to talk to breakycpk or someone else from the honcast crew and hear how they have things set up.
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I agree with the TL mods on this. It is absolutely an accident waiting to happen; in fact I'm sure it's happened already.
I think you've also got to be very careful who you invite into tournament games too. There's sometimes LOADS of observers in these games, not just streamers but friends also. One of them could easily pass information.
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Ok, I have gone through the entire thread, and I don't believe anybody has mentioned this. Tyler, your setup would probably work if you had an SSD, but I imagine the problem for justin.tv is one of scale. If they implement this kind of thing for their streams, they need to figure out how much disk space/bandwidth is available if there are lots of casters/streamers trying to use the delay system simultaneously. While this does seem to be somewhat of an edge case, if I were working for justin.tv, I would be concerned about this. The whole introduction of EU servers to reduce delay (thought I read that in this thread) and spreading out the systems could complicate things as well.
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On February 09 2011 05:52 Timerly wrote:
Again, from a purely logical point of view disregarding an unknown factor is just as stupid as overestimating it. You simply don't know and leaving everything we don't know out of the picture would make pretty much everything pointless. I told you, it's a factor and a big one at that, statistically speaking people have a very strong (0,5% error iirc) preference for live games. You can't measure how much more they like it (there were studies about this kind of thing as part of "utility" research in economics, majorly inconclusive) but you can know it's that way.
To go a bit off topic: read some consumer behaviour themed books when you have the time, you will understand why objectivity is unreachable when talking about people and their decisions.
No-one said anything about disregarding it, what I did say is that it cannot be a major consideration. The statistics that you speak of do not necessarily apply to SC2, where a culture of full match replays is far more prevalent than real sports. On that basis I don't think it's worthy of major consideration. A factor? Certainly, an over-ridingly important one? I don't think so.
On the topic of delays I was under the impression that the people from honcast have been using delays for their live casts. Or well I know for sure that they always had a ~7 min delay whenever they were casting live matches.
I'm not sure how they achieved the delay though, but I was under the impression that they used some software they had bought and seem to be working good.
Unless they've changed things recently, they have a custom server cluster to stream from so have far more control than you would on a public, free service.
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On the topic of delays I was under the impression that the people from honcast have been using delays for their live casts. Or well I know for sure that they always had a ~7 min delay whenever they were casting live matches.
You need 7min delay in HoN/DotA because wards last pretty much exactly that long afaik. How they did it I don't know but I could easily imagine a software/hardware solution (SSD as a buffer, should work fine). If somebody has a good tool, just pass it on^^
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On February 09 2011 05:20 Doriboi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 04:21 Ipp wrote:On February 09 2011 02:17 MrKozi wrote:
I was watching last TLOpen some MorroW games. He was on DecemberTV stream answering accordingly to that casters were saying. Then ppl on chat start taking about cheating and MorroW said that he's only listening stream between games. You can belive him or not but I notice after that he was playing some random terran who went for cloack banshees and MorroW build some spore clawers without scouting anything...
Its sad... MorroW isn't my favorited player anymore. Keep in mind you are not as smart as a player. You don't need to see the building to see what is coming. If you know Terran is getting gas but only see marines and hellions; there is a good chance a banshee is on the way. Please don't slander people; especially pros. Do you expect players to just be sitting idle waiting for the next game? Some players will hop on the stream in between games especially if it their opponent coming up to see how long they have. I'd much rather them do this as it helps the tournament run smoothly; if it was live they'd have the opportunity to watch the preceding game so I don't have any issues with it. At one time MorroW was #1 on Eu and is an IEM Champion; then switched his race and still has an impressive win rate on ladder where you can't really cheat. If a player of his caliber was cheating, I think he would be winning a lot more tournaments. Last but not least. I have not seen anyone who scouts more then MorroW; he is one of the last people I would accuse of cheating. Ipp, This is the second time I've seen you come out and directly defend Morrow. The first was regarding the prize splitting issue with Sjow. So I want to tackle some points here if I can. The person stated that he built spore crawlers without even scouting it. Now if the poster could provide further replays to establish a pattern to Morrow's play, his argument would hold greater validity. But is it up to the poster to do that? Perhaps not. Now I will not say that Morrow is a cheater, because I think he is a very talented player. But his ethics are definitely questionable. And when your ethics are questioned by other people, other accusatory remarks are soon to follow. People still have a bad taste in their mouth from IEM vs Idra, and I still have a bad taste in my mouth over the prize splitting affair. So final remarks. Ipp I love that you care about the community and Starcraft. However I think you need to approach this from the point of view of a journalist rather than a friend of Morrow, because you are a journalist in the Starcraft scene. If this person has an opinion, you should not question his intelligence or degrade him in any way. He was stating an observing a game that felt questionable to him, and can you blame him for the questions he posed?
What happened at IEM?
Also, regarding accusing Morrow of cheating: MrKozi didn't watch the game and go "hey I think this is fishy let me pose some questions," he said "Its sad... Morrow isn't my favorite player anymore." He's already made up his mind: Morrow was cheating. Evidence: Morrow listens to stream in between games and had good spore crawler timing. Really? That's your evidence? Give me a break. I listen to streams in between rounds when I'm being casted, and I'm sure I've gotten observers out against banshees tons of times without scouting them directly (how would one even achieve such a thing?).
How are we supposed to not question his intelligence or degrade him when he makes such obviously inflammatory remarks, when his evidence is building spore crawlers with good timing against a complete unknown terran?
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On February 09 2011 05:59 Antedelerium wrote:
Ok, I have gone through the entire thread, and I don't believe anybody has mentioned this. Tyler, your setup would probably work if you had an SSD, but I imagine the problem for justin.tv is one of scale. If they implement this kind of thing for their streams, they need to figure out how much disk space/bandwidth is available if there are lots of casters/streamers trying to use the delay system simultaneously. While this does seem to be somewhat of an edge case, if I were working for justin.tv, I would be concerned about this. The whole introduction of EU servers to reduce delay (thought I read that in this thread) and spreading out the systems could complicate things as well.
sc-streams.com has a delay feature now, of up to 5 minutes. I think this is definately the future for any streaming service that wants to get gamers using their services for live events. Livestream does offer a delay service, but you have to be a premium member and its truely expensive!!!!
As for the whole sjow thing, that wasn't about throwing games it was about trading their tourney wins so that they could both play and it be worth their while. The events were setup so winning more events got you better prizes, they simply asked if it would be possible for one of them to give the win credit to the other so that one could win the top prize (a top end gaming comp) while retaining the money and acclaim for winning the tourney... at no point did they talk about throwing matches, simply if Sjow won 6 tourneys and the other guy (can't remember who it was now) won 5, Sjow could give his 6 wins to the other one or vice-versa. While I wouldn't allow this to happen if i was in charge, it certainly wasn't underhanded, they were simply seeing if it were possible for both to compete without tripping each other up on the grand prize.
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I know that it has probably been brought up more than just on the first page of this 13 page thread, however I thought I'd mention it again.
JTV offers a professional delay service to their partner streamers, which from what they have told me can delay up to 2 hours if really desired. Make it even 5 minutes and it is plenty. I think a lot of tournaments will start using this sort of technology.
People can and WILL cheat if they have the opportunity. It's sad, but true.
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It was semi obvious some names cheated in beta. I remember distinctly watching a EU match where the player basically responded to what the casters where yelling about, and moved his units in a non standard way in response. It's 100% a reality people will ghost for even 50 dollar prizes.
It's impossible to prove though and naming names does nothing and people could be wrong.
It happens, the only legit tournament is a lan one. Blizzard could have done a S2 GAMES / hon makers settup that makes it impossible to maphack, and also lets you put an inbuilt delay while observing.
Blizzard is obviously not really supporting SC2 esports, and it shows. In general though any online tourney you watch is imperfect and open to cheating.
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On February 09 2011 04:52 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
How about somebody creates WaaaghTV or HLTV for sc2? ->problem solved
How on earth would that solve anything if I may ask? Dont get me wrong, I loved WTV, but its still perfectly cheatable with having observers sit through teamspeak and tell you whats going on, isnt it?
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On February 09 2011 05:52 Doriboi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 05:37 Ipp wrote:
I literally just defended Spades a few posts back. I'm not picking favorites, I'm defending esports. Accusing high level players of cheating can seriously hurt this industry, do you think the industry will pick up sponsors if a rumors of high level people cheating comes up every frequently? There are many types of journalist, I'm one of the responsible ones who don't report facts before gathering evidence. The past offense of MorroW/SjoW was irresponsible journalism, no foul play was involved, go back and read that thread if you still have a foul taste.
The foul play was the mere thought of splitting prizes. It opens up a can of worms akin to the Super Smash Bros. debacle at MLG. How do we know which games are legitimate, who was trying their best, etc. I did read the entire post, Sjow came out and apologized, Morrow defended himself, and you defended Morrow. I don't think it was bad journalism at all. The story eventually died down, and both players are still enjoying their successes. I just don't think you should be quick to defend any player, I'm quite confident in the community to do it.
So you read a 50 page thread but didn't understand any of it? They weren't going to throw any games, they asked asked the admins if they were allowed to pool their victories to have a shot at winning the big prize. The admin said yes, later when rakaka.se had blown in way out of proportion no. The story died because it wasn't even a story to begin with.
I'm also very curious to what fouls he committed at IEM vs Idra. Please elaborate.
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On February 09 2011 06:14 LittLeD wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 04:52 PepperoniPiZZa wrote:
How about somebody creates WaaaghTV or HLTV for sc2? ->problem solved How on earth would that solve anything if I may ask? Dont get me wrong, I loved WTV, but its still perfectly cheatable with having observers sit through teamspeak and tell you whats going on, isnt it?
they could also just maphack (from what I remember there was a viable working mh in beta even)
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On February 09 2011 06:08 PJA wrote:
What happened at IEM?
Also, regarding accusing Morrow of cheating: MrKozi didn't watch the game and go "hey I think this is fishy let me pose some questions," he said "Its sad... Morrow isn't my favorite player anymore." He's already made up his mind: Morrow was cheating. Evidence: Morrow listens to stream in between games and had good spore crawler timing. Really? That's your evidence? Give me a break. I listen to streams in between rounds when I'm being casted, and I'm sure I've gotten observers out against banshees tons of times without scouting them directly (how would one even achieve such a thing?).
How are we supposed to not question his intelligence or degrade him when he makes such obviously inflammatory remarks, when his evidence is building spore crawlers with good timing against a complete unknown terran?
Well Time I'd hope we don't resort to his level of inflammatory rhetoric because we are supposed to be better than that, that we do not resort to questioning a person's mental age or ability. You are correct that the burden of proof is on the person presenting the accusation.
IEM- 5 rax reaper, doing whatever it takes to win. I just said some still have a bad taste in their mouth from it. Unethical? No, it was a legitimate strategy at the time. But some saw it as imbalanced or unethical.
My point I am trying to articulate (or perhaps I'm failing at) is people have a right to their opinion, no matter how skewed it is, and the journalism side needs to remain impartial, rather than take sides.
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On February 09 2011 06:15 Longshank wrote:
So you read a 50 page thread but didn't understand any of it? They weren't going to throw any games, they asked asked the admins if they were allowed to pool their victories to have a shot at winning the big prize. The admin said yes, later when rakaka.se had blown in way out of proportion no. The story died because it wasn't even a story to begin with.
I'm also very curious to what fouls he committed at IEM vs Idra. Please elaborate.
No I read the key posts, 48 pages of people posting their opinions is quite strenuous.
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isnt there a stream delay in general? and why would a good player risk his reputation to win a single game
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On February 09 2011 05:29 Eliezar wrote:
The good thing is that play in SC2 is so far advanced compared to SC1/BW that there isn't as many baseless accusations of cheating. However, that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Wait. What? You got to be kidding me. Back then, we didn't have Skype or the issue of having so many livestreamers for starters. Please don't turn this into a BW versus SC2 conversation.
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EPT
