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Hey there,
recently I've been thinking about APM, and by that I mean the actual APM that you do sensible stuff with, not max spamming, multi-clicking or whatever.
Pretty much everyone agrees that you don't need an insane amount of APM to be successful at SC2, but 150-200 APM seems to be a reasonable 'needed' amount to play at pro level. However, one particular question came up.
Is it physically impossible for some people to reach said amount of APM? Of course it is impossible for disabled people, mouse only players, etc. but I'm talking about the average guy here. Two healthy arms, one healthy brain, everything in the right place to play SC2.
What do you guys think? Does every player have his personal APM limit that might very well lie below ~200 or do you think that everybody should be able to reach 200APM with enough practice?
I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts about his.
Some stuff to clarify: I am not APM obsessed by any means, nor do I worry about my personal current or future APM. I'm also well aware that you can hardly force high APM. APM are something that comes naturally the more you play. I'm just curious if it is physically impossible to play at pro level for some people while they would be perfectly capable of doing so mentally.
Poll: Do you think everyone is physically capable of breaking 200 APM?There might be some people who can't physically reach 200APM, but the average guy should be able to (421) 50% Yes, everyone should be able to break 200(USEFUL!!!) APM physically. (226) 27% No, I think many people have their personal APM cap way below 200APM. (197) 23% 844 total votes Your vote: Do you think everyone is physically capable of breaking 200 APM? (Vote): Yes, everyone should be able to break 200(USEFUL!!!) APM physically.
(Vote): No, I think many people have their personal APM cap way below 200APM.
(Vote): There might be some people who can't physically reach 200APM, but the average guy should be able to
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As you get older, your speed decreases a bit so I do believe there is an eventual physical APM cap. Of course this can vary person to person, but I've heard from some people that BoxeR technically plays pretty slow since he's pushing his 30's.
I personally have had no experience with it since I'm still youthful =P
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It's definitely capable physically for any healthy starcraft player, but where it really matters is if he is just button-mashing, or putting it to good use
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It could depend on how you define an action. In normal play, I average 100-170 APM over the game, according to replays, and peak at no more than 400 or so when in a frantic production or battle mode.
However, I've also noticed that using the stop+F1 drone dispersal technique you can EASILY see 1000 APM and watching one replay I got to 2000 APM. I can only assume that pressing F1 when many drones are idle incorporates a number of actions that the computer does for you.
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Physically yes.
However even with 200apm you could be doing it wrong or just spamming less than optimal moments to keep up the speed.
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It would actually be quite interesting (fucking crazy, but still interesting) if a player could abuse apm. Just because they can physically play faster than thier opponent eg. they know the player can only manage 5 drops, so they they drop in 6 places at once
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I can't seem to get much over 250 even straight spamming but then again maybe I'm special. I also wonder what's the absolute minimum apms needed. For the first few mins it must really not be more then 10. I do enjoy putting 200 apms of effort into making the critcal first pylon though.
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In my opinion, it's just like being talented at sports. Obviously practice makes you better, but some people are naturally talented. For SC2, it is not physically impossible to play at pro level because relatively low apm is needed. There are plenty of very good players with fairly low apm. 150 apm is easily achievable with practice. There's definitely different apm limits for everyone though, and this is were natural talent plays in.
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Physically, its definitely possible. Obviously anyone can spam that high. I know some guys in my college who can spam 700 apm + at the beginning of the match. Can everyone put 200+ apm to good use? Then you're asking more about the mental aspect. I think with enough training, anyone can easily break 200 useful apm. Its simply a matter of knowing what to do.
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Well it takes practice to get your muscles built up in your hand. It's not like you can sit down at a computer for your very first time and type at 70WPM. APM in SC2 is no different.
200 APM really isn't all that much so it's not very likely to be a physical limitation of many players unless they have a medical condition (including, but not limited to, missing limbs) or are very old. I'd be willing to bet that almost anyone can hit 200 APM spamming 123 or 5sd using 3 fingers after just a little bit of time doing it. Meanwhile that's ignoring your whole other hand. Honestly, your mouse hand is probably the bigger bottle neck to APM than anything else and really the mouse isn't that demanding for speed, it just requires the appropriate muscle memory to move it accurately at a quick pace.
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200 apm doesnt seem that high... I am sure if I tried I could get to 200 apm in a month. I believe you can force your APM.. I have done it many times. I forced myself to play faster and at first it was kinda sloppy but when you keep doing it you will speed up and your average APM will rise. Maybe I can do that though because I used to play gunz at 600 APM.. so just like 100-150 apm is really slow to me just I havent played enough to know what I need to do at all times automatically.. Really late into a game when theres not much thinking needed though my APM rises a lot which is why I win late game 95% of the time since people slow down at the point while my APM rises every minute..
Personally I think 300-350ish will be a good amount to be having crazy micro and macroing at the same time.. but dunno because I am obviously not close to being there lol..
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On November 30 2010 09:04 Hypatio wrote:
It could depend on how you define an action. In normal play, I average 100-170 APM over the game and peak at no more than 400 or so when in a frantic production or battle mode.
However, I've also noticed that using the stop+F1 drone dispersal technique you can EASILY see 1000 APM and watching one replay I got to 2000 APM. I can only assume that pressing F1 when many drones are idle incorporates a number of actions that the computer does for you.
As I said, I'm talking about sensible APM here. No mashing, no "bugs", no abuse, etc. Just clean, real actions that make sense in some way.
To make a rather extreme example: Let's imagine a guy that just cannot do more than 50 actions per minute physically. It's just impossible for him. But inside the borders of those 50 APM he's physically capable of, he does everything perfectly. Obviously this guy is gonna be a very good player, as 50 perfect actions are more than enough to beat most people. However, he will never be able to beat someone with ~200APM even if that guy is slightly less perfect in his 'APM usage'. That's how my question comes up.
To clarify things a bit, I think I will add a poll to the original thread.
Edit: Spelling
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Sry, accidental double post.
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There is of course a limit to how much data your brain can handle at the same time, we can say that you as a human have a limited amount of RAM.
Now, let's say that all humans have 1G ram. 600mb of that is spent on background processes, you know, MSN (social stuff), explorer (important body stuff) etc.
Now, this gives us 400mb of ram to utilize for SC2. What we want to do is to index SC2 into our brain so that searching for files goes faster, just like the first virus search always take ages while the following ones are quite quick.
Now your brain have indexed that probes are made with "e" and terrans do stupid pushes around the 7 minute mark. That takes 50mb to uphold.
So, having indexed SC2 perfectly and shut down as many background processes as possible you can now start playing.
Every click you do uses up a small bit of your ram. Eventually your ram will run out. However, it's very hard to say at exactly which number of apm you will reach that limit since so many factors play in. How well is the game indexed? Are my background processes using up unnecessary memory? Is my brain infected with malicious software?
Yes, there is a cap, but that cap is at how many actions you could do if you could utilize the full 1G potential of your brain, thus eliminating all the memory hogs. The more memory you cut from other things, the more apm you can do.
Lol, this went too far
What I'm trying to say is that there is a cap but that cap is unreachable since you will ALWAYS be able to be just a bit more focused and just a tad more alert.
However, I do think think that the realistic cap varies from human to human, i would say that all normal functioning humans can get to 200 apm with enough practice and dedication, I'm not so sure that everyone could get to 300 or 350 though.
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afaik the known record in a televised game is held by Julyzerg at 818 peak apm.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/hxBs7.jpg) .
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On November 30 2010 09:11 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 09:04 Hypatio wrote:
It could depend on how you define an action. In normal play, I average 100-170 APM over the game and peak at no more than 400 or so when in a frantic production or battle mode.
However, I've also noticed that using the stop+F1 drone dispersal technique you can EASILY see 1000 APM and watching one replay I got to 2000 APM. I can only assume that pressing F1 when many drones are idle incorporates a number of actions that the computer does for you. As I said, I'm talking about sensible APM here. No mashing, no "bugs", no abuse, etc. Just clean, real actions that make sense in some way. To make a rather extreme example: Let's imagine a guy that just cannot do more than 50 actions per minute physically. It's just impossible for him. But inside the borders of those 50 APM he's physically capable of, he does everything perfectly. Obviously this guy is gonna be a very good player, as 50 perfect actions are more than enough to beat most people. However, he will never be able to beat someone with ~200APM even if that guy is slightly less perfect in his 'APM usage'. That's how my question comes up. Edit: Spelling
It might be important to realize that APM spam is not always MERE spam. Firstly, it is healthy to use move/attack commands more than once and perhaps even at least three times in fast repetition simply because you may make a misclick which is corrected by subsequent commands. In addition, during the course of a command your opinion may change rapidly as new information comes by moving the window or surveying surroundings or the movements of your and enemy units.
This makes it quite difficult even to define what someones useful or effective apm is, because even the 'spam' is very often useful.
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On November 30 2010 09:23 Stenstyren wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There is of course a limit to how much data your brain can handle at the same time, we can say that you as a human have a limited amount of RAM.
Now, let's say that all humans have 1G ram. 600mb of that is spent on background processes, you know, MSN (social stuff), explorer (important body stuff) etc.
Now, this gives us 400mb of ram to utilize for SC2. What we want to do is to index SC2 into our brain so that searching for files goes faster, just like the first virus search always take ages while the following ones are quite quick.
Now your brain have indexed that probes are made with "e" and terrans do stupid pushes around the 7 minute mark. That takes 50mb to uphold.
So, having indexed SC2 perfectly and shut down as many background processes as possible you can now start playing.
Every click you do uses up a small bit of your ram. Eventually your ram will run out. However, it's very hard to say at exactly which number of apm you will reach that limit since so many factors play in. How well is the game indexed? Are my background processes using up unnecessary memory? Is my brain infected with malicious software?
Yes, there is a cap, but that cap is at how many actions you could do if you could utilize the full 1G potential of your brain, thus eliminating all the memory hogs. The more memory you cut from other things, the more apm you can do. Lol, this went too far What I'm trying to say is that there is a cap but that cap is unreachable since you will ALWAYS be able to be just a bit more focused and just a tad more alert. However, I do think think that the realistic cap varies from human to human, i would say that all normal functioning humans can get to 200 apm with enough practice and dedication, I'm not so sure that everyone could get to 300 or 350 though.
Thank you! That was the kind of answer I was looking for  The last two paragraphs at the very least...
On November 30 2010 09:25 Hypatio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 09:11 Mooncat wrote:On November 30 2010 09:04 Hypatio wrote:
It could depend on how you define an action. In normal play, I average 100-170 APM over the game and peak at no more than 400 or so when in a frantic production or battle mode.
However, I've also noticed that using the stop+F1 drone dispersal technique you can EASILY see 1000 APM and watching one replay I got to 2000 APM. I can only assume that pressing F1 when many drones are idle incorporates a number of actions that the computer does for you. As I said, I'm talking about sensible APM here. No mashing, no "bugs", no abuse, etc. Just clean, real actions that make sense in some way. To make a rather extreme example: Let's imagine a guy that just cannot do more than 50 actions per minute physically. It's just impossible for him. But inside the borders of those 50 APM he's physically capable of, he does everything perfectly. Obviously this guy is gonna be a very good player, as 50 perfect actions are more than enough to beat most people. However, he will never be able to beat someone with ~200APM even if that guy is slightly less perfect in his 'APM usage'. That's how my question comes up. Edit: Spelling It might be important to realize that APM spam is not always MERE spam. Firstly, it is healthy to use move/attack commands more than once and perhaps even at least three times in fast repetition simply because you may make a misclick which is corrected by subsequent commands. In addition, during the course of a command your opinion may change rapidly as new information comes by moving the window or surveying surroundings or the movements of your and enemy units. This makes it quite difficult even to define what someones useful or effective apm is, because even the 'spam' is very often useful.
I do realize that 'useful' APM is rather difficult to define, but you know what I mean right? ;>
It's not that important to have an exact definition of the term 'useful APM' to answer my question, you just have to roughly know what I'm talking about.
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APM is based on in game time. In game time is not the same as real time therefore APM is not actually accurate. Game time is roughly 1.5x normal time so someone with 150 APM is actually around 225 that we would have seen in Starcraft 1. Good note to have when doing this analysis.
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Anybody can button mash the keyboard for 1000+ APM if they felt like it. That means that the restriction on a person's APM isn't how fast his or her fingers move, but how fast his or her mind moves. I think that everyone is capable of this kind of APM given enough practice.
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I think what most people will find that as your ability to multitask gets better, your APM will go with it.
I don't think it's a case of being able to reach 200apm, it's knowing why you need 200apm to begin with, and all that comes down to is practice, every normal person has the capacity to play with high apm, if your fingers can move that fast, you can play with high apm. For example, if I were to type out a random sequence of numbers and letters (4 dd 2 s 1 s 3 e 4 aa, something like that but longer) you would at first look at it and do it very slowly, but as you became more familar with it, you would do it so fast to the point where it's second nature, and it's the exact same as playing sc2, just interpretting what needs to be done and executing it quickly.
When I first started, I played at around 60, and thought, theres no way I'll ever get to play at a 200-300 apm range.
Now, it's just the norm for me. and that's after around 3 months.
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EPT
