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Physical APM Cap? - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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B.I.G.
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
3251 Posts
January 08 2011 20:40 GMT
#81
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.
Erucious
Profile Joined March 2010
Norway393 Posts
January 08 2011 20:40 GMT
#82
APM is more mind than hands... Most non-handicapped people can press buttons really fast, but u have to have something do with it - it has to be useful. Thats where the mind comes in... Either way, i dont think u need more than 200 apm as a "pro", but it never hurts having more... If you have infinity APM, and your mind has infinity brainpower as well, your units would never die because of micro, and all units would end up at 1hp after the end of a battle (hypothetically speaking).

so in the end, apm does matter, but it has to be useful
I'm Norwegian/Dutch. Just the awesome parts of them though :D
Shikyo
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Finland33997 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-08 20:45:30
January 08 2011 20:45 GMT
#83
On November 30 2010 09:24 ZoW wrote:
afaik the known record in a televised game is held by Julyzerg at 818 peak apm.

[image loading].

That's spam there though, it's spamclicking while mutamicroing and isn't exactly effective, his avg is alot lower as well. I think effort had the highest average APM out of the progamers along with Hero, both had 500+ in multiple games.

On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.

Need to watch more FPVODs
League of Legends EU West, Platinum III | Yousei Teikoku is the best thing that has ever happened to music.
NIIINO
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Slovakia1320 Posts
January 08 2011 20:45 GMT
#84
I think that everyone can get over 200 AMP.
When i started playing SC2 i had maybe 80 AMP at max. Now im capable of 200 AMP. So why cant i be 300 AMP in next two years ? I think that AMP is learn able by practice.
darunia
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States139 Posts
January 08 2011 20:54 GMT
#85
On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.


Pros are constantly checking their unit producing structures, which consists of constant hotkeying (term?). If you look at many replays in the view of a pro you see the hotkeys flickering, but not to spam. They are doing it to keep up with progress.
If it sounds good, it is good.
Silidons
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2813 Posts
January 08 2011 21:08 GMT
#86
On January 09 2011 05:54 darunia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.


Pros are constantly checking their unit producing structures, which consists of constant hotkeying (term?). If you look at many replays in the view of a pro you see the hotkeys flickering, but not to spam. They are doing it to keep up with progress.

pretty sure they aren't that dumb and know generally how long said units takes to come out of a structure, they don't need to do it every second throughout the entire game, which is what they do.

personally i have around 100 normally with only spamming in the first minute or 2. then i never spam. one game i semi-spammed throughout various parts of the game and got 150apm. that was 50 useless apm.

there is no such thing as 200 effective apm in sc2. in sc1 yes, sc2 no.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon Bonaparte
Goolpsy
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark301 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-08 21:11:55
January 08 2011 21:08 GMT
#87
In wc3 it was recognized by some major european players, that you only really needed like 140 apm. Most exceeding that would be spam.
Now, sc2 controls are much like wc3, however battles are shorter and with much less micro. Microing is what really uses the most apm (again not talking about silly mass spamming here).
In sc2 however you have way more macro mechanics, hence while they require less apm, there's more of them, which can amount to alot of apm usage for later games.

I'd call the need about even between the 2 games, hence you would only need 110 SC2 apm (because of the Faster clock its like 140 normal apm)

Everything else is bad pointless clicking and excessive spam.

Edit: This is ofc average apm its easy to spike waay higher.
ALPINA
Profile Joined May 2010
3791 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-08 21:18:43
January 08 2011 21:15 GMT
#88
On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
there is no such thing as 200 effective apm in sc2. in sc1 yes, sc2 no.


You are really wrong here. So you want to say that 200 apm is enough for perfect micro, macro and multitasking in late game for sc2?



On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
personally i have around 100 normally with only spamming in the first minute or 2. then i never spam. one game i semi-spammed throughout various parts of the game and got 150apm. that was 50 useless apm.


So you want to say that you are playing perfect game with your 100apm? Every your action is perfect, right?
You should never underestimate the predictability of stupidity
KoshkaTV
Profile Joined October 2010
United States430 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-08 21:21:48
January 08 2011 21:19 GMT
#89
How fast come someone click the mouse twice?
.1 sec? usually i remember only being able to do it in like .15 generally.

So a click every .15 is the max really. So thats.... 6.3 clicks per second.

So thats ~360 APM max for muscle twitch factors.

Is that wrong somehow? Can people twice in .05 sec? I doubt it

EDIT: but i guess they do have more than 1 mouse button and 2 hands. There is a physical limit though.
www.KoshkaTV.com
Pulimuli
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Sweden2766 Posts
January 08 2011 21:21 GMT
#90
unless you're old (like older than 50), have arthritis or some rheumatic disease 200 apm shouldnt be a problem
BluzMan
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Russian Federation4235 Posts
January 08 2011 21:23 GMT
#91
I type at 300 characters per minute. I don't consider myself a particularly good typist, talented people go over 1000. But if you consider that APM, then it's 300 USEFUL APM (since every character is needed). For an average person. I don't really see the point of this discussion, people who keep saying they are too slow physically to be able to compete in SC are just making excuses.

The only thing that hinders your APM from going through the roof is your mind, not your hands. Anyone who keeps telling SC is too hard mechanically doesn't have a clue.
You want 20 good men, but you need a bad pussy.
Wr3k
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada2533 Posts
January 08 2011 21:24 GMT
#92
IF you practice enough there is no reason why you can 't have 200apm.

Its probably less useful as protoss though.
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
January 08 2011 21:29 GMT
#93
to break it, spam like shit. there 500 apm for you.
but averaging 200 apm takes a while and requires lots of dedication to practice.
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
Reborn8u
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
United States1761 Posts
January 08 2011 21:30 GMT
#94
I've been playing a ton of starcraft for over a year. (switched to sc2 in beta) my apm was originally around 40 and I'm around 80 now, on a good day. I'm 29 years old and my first rts was dune (1992). I doubt I'll ever reach 200+ apm. I don't think I need to. I beat people now who have around 200 apm. 80 useful actions per minute (I do hit 150 range time to time while doing micro but I can't sustain it, and get sloppy when I try to go too fast) With good multitasking, strategy, being able to read your opponent, being creative and unpredictable can go quite a long way to make up for a lack of raw speed.
:)
lyAsakura
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1414 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-08 21:53:29
January 08 2011 21:43 GMT
#95
On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2011 05:54 darunia wrote:
On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.


Pros are constantly checking their unit producing structures, which consists of constant hotkeying (term?). If you look at many replays in the view of a pro you see the hotkeys flickering, but not to spam. They are doing it to keep up with progress.

pretty sure they aren't that dumb and know generally how long said units takes to come out of a structure, they don't need to do it every second throughout the entire game, which is what they do.

personally i have around 100 normally with only spamming in the first minute or 2. then i never spam. one game i semi-spammed throughout various parts of the game and got 150apm. that was 50 useless apm.

there is no such thing as 200 effective apm in sc2. in sc1 yes, sc2 no.


Muscle memory. Continuously doing one thing is much better then doing it, then stopping, then doing it, etc. The actions are not useless at all if it benefits your game. If you've watched Jaedong FPVODs, even though he only hotkeys up to 7 and has only four hatchery hotkeys, he still, even in the midst of the heaviest battle in the game, just scrolls through the four keys, maybe tells 3 larvae to turn into lings, and doing so throughout the entire game makes the pros who they are.

Besides, it is impossible to have no redundant apm. Progamers average around 30-40% redundancy and when I play, I get around 20% when I'm, as you did, only spamming in early game.
WeMade FOX would be a deadly SC2 team.
morimacil
Profile Joined March 2010
France921 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-08 21:49:14
January 08 2011 21:47 GMT
#96
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.

Well first of all, the human brain can work super fast, just because yours doesnt doesnt mean its impossible.

Second of all, APM means actions per minute, not decisions per minute.
I need to drop his base. 1 decision.
double tap hotkey to go to correct screen, select group of units, one too many shift click it out, load into medivac, select medivac, send medivac to opponent's base via edge of the screen, queue unit unload, hotkey medivac to separate ctrl group
X, X, click, shift, click, click, click, slick, shift, click, shift, D, click, ctrl, Y
1 simple enough decision, 15 actions required to carry it out, perhaps more. You can spend 5 seconds thinking about what you will do next. Perhaps macro?
double tap hotkey, mule twice, select rax, make units, select factory, make units, select starport, make units, ceck up on upgrading structures, make more upgrade if needed. one decision, lots of actions, again.

Even something as simple as making a depot. If youve played enough games, you probably dont even need to think about making a depot. it becomes automatic.
But even a simple thought like that requires multiple actions. select SCV, build stuff, select depot, select placement, shift click back to mineral line. 6 actions. If it takes you 2 seconds to think about building a depot, and 5 to thinjk about doing a drop, then you could be playing at 200 APM.

The reason people have less APM isnt because they arent spamming uselessly, its mostly because they have a lot of idle time.
Idle structures doing nothing, units sitting aroung not scouting, not poking, not killing destructible rocks, energy building up on macro mechanics, and so on.
They are doing a drop, they are looking at the drop, units are fighting, they watch the units fighting, and so on. While not doing much during that time.
darunia
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States139 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-08 21:55:56
January 08 2011 21:54 GMT
#97
X, X, click, shift, click, click, click, slick, shift, click, shift, D, click, ctrl, Y
1 simple enough decision, 15 actions required to carry it out, perhaps more. You can spend 5 seconds thinking about what you will do next. Perhaps macro?
double tap hotkey, mule twice, select rax, make units, select factory, make units, select starport, make units, ceck up on upgrading structures, make more upgrade if needed. one decision, lots of actions, again.



lol makes me wonder what SC2 would be like if it were text based...
If it sounds good, it is good.
HaRuHi
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
1220 Posts
January 08 2011 22:01 GMT
#98
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/games/play/1145/

I can do this in like 3.xxx seconds, there are 15 numbers to click, so its like 15 actions in 3 seconds.
That would be like 300 Apm, and this is only with one hand (Mouseapm). I totally doubt that there is anyone who can't reach 200 useful apm.
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10338 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-08 22:05:57
January 08 2011 22:01 GMT
#99
Of course. Given you have a healthy brain, it's just a matter of time before you play enough and have enough experience so that you don't have to think as much, and there are more and more things you can do quicker with less effort and thought.

Also, why do people look down on "spam"? What is spam? Spam is something totally useless, right?

Thing is, APM isn't useless. It's never ever useless. At least, I can't think of one instance where it's absolutely useless. Spam at the beginning? It's for warm up. "Spam" clicking when moving units isn't useless either. It keeps you more alert and faster to adapt to the situation (if suddenly you need to go left just a tad or something, for example), can help keep focus on exactly where you're going, and making sure the AI doesn't do any stupid pathing moves or such.


How fast come someone click the mouse twice?
.1 sec? usually i remember only being able to do it in like .15 generally.

So a click every .15 is the max really. So thats.... 6.3 clicks per second.

So thats ~360 APM max for muscle twitch factors.

Is that wrong somehow? Can people twice in .05 sec? I doubt it

EDIT: but i guess they do have more than 1 mouse button and 2 hands. There is a physical limit though.


lol i was gonna say, uh, you forgot the keyboard part, but u fixed it
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
TFB
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom89 Posts
January 08 2011 22:21 GMT
#100
On January 09 2011 06:54 darunia wrote:
lol makes me wonder what SC2 would be like if it were text based...


You do not have SVC in your inventory.
>_
WARNING : TFB is rubbish, do not treat post as gospel
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