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Hey there,
recently I've been thinking about APM, and by that I mean the actual APM that you do sensible stuff with, not max spamming, multi-clicking or whatever.
Pretty much everyone agrees that you don't need an insane amount of APM to be successful at SC2, but 150-200 APM seems to be a reasonable 'needed' amount to play at pro level. However, one particular question came up.
Is it physically impossible for some people to reach said amount of APM? Of course it is impossible for disabled people, mouse only players, etc. but I'm talking about the average guy here. Two healthy arms, one healthy brain, everything in the right place to play SC2.
What do you guys think? Does every player have his personal APM limit that might very well lie below ~200 or do you think that everybody should be able to reach 200APM with enough practice?
I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts about his.
Some stuff to clarify: I am not APM obsessed by any means, nor do I worry about my personal current or future APM. I'm also well aware that you can hardly force high APM. APM are something that comes naturally the more you play. I'm just curious if it is physically impossible to play at pro level for some people while they would be perfectly capable of doing so mentally.
Poll: Do you think everyone is physically capable of breaking 200 APM?There might be some people who can't physically reach 200APM, but the average guy should be able to (421) 50% Yes, everyone should be able to break 200(USEFUL!!!) APM physically. (226) 27% No, I think many people have their personal APM cap way below 200APM. (197) 23% 844 total votes Your vote: Do you think everyone is physically capable of breaking 200 APM? (Vote): Yes, everyone should be able to break 200(USEFUL!!!) APM physically.
(Vote): No, I think many people have their personal APM cap way below 200APM.
(Vote): There might be some people who can't physically reach 200APM, but the average guy should be able to
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As you get older, your speed decreases a bit so I do believe there is an eventual physical APM cap. Of course this can vary person to person, but I've heard from some people that BoxeR technically plays pretty slow since he's pushing his 30's.
I personally have had no experience with it since I'm still youthful =P
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It's definitely capable physically for any healthy starcraft player, but where it really matters is if he is just button-mashing, or putting it to good use
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It could depend on how you define an action. In normal play, I average 100-170 APM over the game, according to replays, and peak at no more than 400 or so when in a frantic production or battle mode.
However, I've also noticed that using the stop+F1 drone dispersal technique you can EASILY see 1000 APM and watching one replay I got to 2000 APM. I can only assume that pressing F1 when many drones are idle incorporates a number of actions that the computer does for you.
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Physically yes.
However even with 200apm you could be doing it wrong or just spamming less than optimal moments to keep up the speed.
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It would actually be quite interesting (fucking crazy, but still interesting) if a player could abuse apm. Just because they can physically play faster than thier opponent eg. they know the player can only manage 5 drops, so they they drop in 6 places at once
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I can't seem to get much over 250 even straight spamming but then again maybe I'm special. I also wonder what's the absolute minimum apms needed. For the first few mins it must really not be more then 10. I do enjoy putting 200 apms of effort into making the critcal first pylon though.
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In my opinion, it's just like being talented at sports. Obviously practice makes you better, but some people are naturally talented. For SC2, it is not physically impossible to play at pro level because relatively low apm is needed. There are plenty of very good players with fairly low apm. 150 apm is easily achievable with practice. There's definitely different apm limits for everyone though, and this is were natural talent plays in.
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Physically, its definitely possible. Obviously anyone can spam that high. I know some guys in my college who can spam 700 apm + at the beginning of the match. Can everyone put 200+ apm to good use? Then you're asking more about the mental aspect. I think with enough training, anyone can easily break 200 useful apm. Its simply a matter of knowing what to do.
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Well it takes practice to get your muscles built up in your hand. It's not like you can sit down at a computer for your very first time and type at 70WPM. APM in SC2 is no different.
200 APM really isn't all that much so it's not very likely to be a physical limitation of many players unless they have a medical condition (including, but not limited to, missing limbs) or are very old. I'd be willing to bet that almost anyone can hit 200 APM spamming 123 or 5sd using 3 fingers after just a little bit of time doing it. Meanwhile that's ignoring your whole other hand. Honestly, your mouse hand is probably the bigger bottle neck to APM than anything else and really the mouse isn't that demanding for speed, it just requires the appropriate muscle memory to move it accurately at a quick pace.
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200 apm doesnt seem that high... I am sure if I tried I could get to 200 apm in a month. I believe you can force your APM.. I have done it many times. I forced myself to play faster and at first it was kinda sloppy but when you keep doing it you will speed up and your average APM will rise. Maybe I can do that though because I used to play gunz at 600 APM.. so just like 100-150 apm is really slow to me just I havent played enough to know what I need to do at all times automatically.. Really late into a game when theres not much thinking needed though my APM rises a lot which is why I win late game 95% of the time since people slow down at the point while my APM rises every minute..
Personally I think 300-350ish will be a good amount to be having crazy micro and macroing at the same time.. but dunno because I am obviously not close to being there lol..
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On November 30 2010 09:04 Hypatio wrote:
It could depend on how you define an action. In normal play, I average 100-170 APM over the game and peak at no more than 400 or so when in a frantic production or battle mode.
However, I've also noticed that using the stop+F1 drone dispersal technique you can EASILY see 1000 APM and watching one replay I got to 2000 APM. I can only assume that pressing F1 when many drones are idle incorporates a number of actions that the computer does for you.
As I said, I'm talking about sensible APM here. No mashing, no "bugs", no abuse, etc. Just clean, real actions that make sense in some way.
To make a rather extreme example: Let's imagine a guy that just cannot do more than 50 actions per minute physically. It's just impossible for him. But inside the borders of those 50 APM he's physically capable of, he does everything perfectly. Obviously this guy is gonna be a very good player, as 50 perfect actions are more than enough to beat most people. However, he will never be able to beat someone with ~200APM even if that guy is slightly less perfect in his 'APM usage'. That's how my question comes up.
To clarify things a bit, I think I will add a poll to the original thread.
Edit: Spelling
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Sry, accidental double post.
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There is of course a limit to how much data your brain can handle at the same time, we can say that you as a human have a limited amount of RAM.
Now, let's say that all humans have 1G ram. 600mb of that is spent on background processes, you know, MSN (social stuff), explorer (important body stuff) etc.
Now, this gives us 400mb of ram to utilize for SC2. What we want to do is to index SC2 into our brain so that searching for files goes faster, just like the first virus search always take ages while the following ones are quite quick.
Now your brain have indexed that probes are made with "e" and terrans do stupid pushes around the 7 minute mark. That takes 50mb to uphold.
So, having indexed SC2 perfectly and shut down as many background processes as possible you can now start playing.
Every click you do uses up a small bit of your ram. Eventually your ram will run out. However, it's very hard to say at exactly which number of apm you will reach that limit since so many factors play in. How well is the game indexed? Are my background processes using up unnecessary memory? Is my brain infected with malicious software?
Yes, there is a cap, but that cap is at how many actions you could do if you could utilize the full 1G potential of your brain, thus eliminating all the memory hogs. The more memory you cut from other things, the more apm you can do.
Lol, this went too far
What I'm trying to say is that there is a cap but that cap is unreachable since you will ALWAYS be able to be just a bit more focused and just a tad more alert.
However, I do think think that the realistic cap varies from human to human, i would say that all normal functioning humans can get to 200 apm with enough practice and dedication, I'm not so sure that everyone could get to 300 or 350 though.
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afaik the known record in a televised game is held by Julyzerg at 818 peak apm.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/hxBs7.jpg) .
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On November 30 2010 09:11 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 09:04 Hypatio wrote:
It could depend on how you define an action. In normal play, I average 100-170 APM over the game and peak at no more than 400 or so when in a frantic production or battle mode.
However, I've also noticed that using the stop+F1 drone dispersal technique you can EASILY see 1000 APM and watching one replay I got to 2000 APM. I can only assume that pressing F1 when many drones are idle incorporates a number of actions that the computer does for you. As I said, I'm talking about sensible APM here. No mashing, no "bugs", no abuse, etc. Just clean, real actions that make sense in some way. To make a rather extreme example: Let's imagine a guy that just cannot do more than 50 actions per minute physically. It's just impossible for him. But inside the borders of those 50 APM he's physically capable of, he does everything perfectly. Obviously this guy is gonna be a very good player, as 50 perfect actions are more than enough to beat most people. However, he will never be able to beat someone with ~200APM even if that guy is slightly less perfect in his 'APM usage'. That's how my question comes up. Edit: Spelling
It might be important to realize that APM spam is not always MERE spam. Firstly, it is healthy to use move/attack commands more than once and perhaps even at least three times in fast repetition simply because you may make a misclick which is corrected by subsequent commands. In addition, during the course of a command your opinion may change rapidly as new information comes by moving the window or surveying surroundings or the movements of your and enemy units.
This makes it quite difficult even to define what someones useful or effective apm is, because even the 'spam' is very often useful.
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On November 30 2010 09:23 Stenstyren wrote:+ Show Spoiler +There is of course a limit to how much data your brain can handle at the same time, we can say that you as a human have a limited amount of RAM.
Now, let's say that all humans have 1G ram. 600mb of that is spent on background processes, you know, MSN (social stuff), explorer (important body stuff) etc.
Now, this gives us 400mb of ram to utilize for SC2. What we want to do is to index SC2 into our brain so that searching for files goes faster, just like the first virus search always take ages while the following ones are quite quick.
Now your brain have indexed that probes are made with "e" and terrans do stupid pushes around the 7 minute mark. That takes 50mb to uphold.
So, having indexed SC2 perfectly and shut down as many background processes as possible you can now start playing.
Every click you do uses up a small bit of your ram. Eventually your ram will run out. However, it's very hard to say at exactly which number of apm you will reach that limit since so many factors play in. How well is the game indexed? Are my background processes using up unnecessary memory? Is my brain infected with malicious software?
Yes, there is a cap, but that cap is at how many actions you could do if you could utilize the full 1G potential of your brain, thus eliminating all the memory hogs. The more memory you cut from other things, the more apm you can do. Lol, this went too far What I'm trying to say is that there is a cap but that cap is unreachable since you will ALWAYS be able to be just a bit more focused and just a tad more alert. However, I do think think that the realistic cap varies from human to human, i would say that all normal functioning humans can get to 200 apm with enough practice and dedication, I'm not so sure that everyone could get to 300 or 350 though.
Thank you! That was the kind of answer I was looking for  The last two paragraphs at the very least...
On November 30 2010 09:25 Hypatio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 09:11 Mooncat wrote:On November 30 2010 09:04 Hypatio wrote:
It could depend on how you define an action. In normal play, I average 100-170 APM over the game and peak at no more than 400 or so when in a frantic production or battle mode.
However, I've also noticed that using the stop+F1 drone dispersal technique you can EASILY see 1000 APM and watching one replay I got to 2000 APM. I can only assume that pressing F1 when many drones are idle incorporates a number of actions that the computer does for you. As I said, I'm talking about sensible APM here. No mashing, no "bugs", no abuse, etc. Just clean, real actions that make sense in some way. To make a rather extreme example: Let's imagine a guy that just cannot do more than 50 actions per minute physically. It's just impossible for him. But inside the borders of those 50 APM he's physically capable of, he does everything perfectly. Obviously this guy is gonna be a very good player, as 50 perfect actions are more than enough to beat most people. However, he will never be able to beat someone with ~200APM even if that guy is slightly less perfect in his 'APM usage'. That's how my question comes up. Edit: Spelling It might be important to realize that APM spam is not always MERE spam. Firstly, it is healthy to use move/attack commands more than once and perhaps even at least three times in fast repetition simply because you may make a misclick which is corrected by subsequent commands. In addition, during the course of a command your opinion may change rapidly as new information comes by moving the window or surveying surroundings or the movements of your and enemy units. This makes it quite difficult even to define what someones useful or effective apm is, because even the 'spam' is very often useful.
I do realize that 'useful' APM is rather difficult to define, but you know what I mean right? ;>
It's not that important to have an exact definition of the term 'useful APM' to answer my question, you just have to roughly know what I'm talking about.
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APM is based on in game time. In game time is not the same as real time therefore APM is not actually accurate. Game time is roughly 1.5x normal time so someone with 150 APM is actually around 225 that we would have seen in Starcraft 1. Good note to have when doing this analysis.
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Anybody can button mash the keyboard for 1000+ APM if they felt like it. That means that the restriction on a person's APM isn't how fast his or her fingers move, but how fast his or her mind moves. I think that everyone is capable of this kind of APM given enough practice.
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I think what most people will find that as your ability to multitask gets better, your APM will go with it.
I don't think it's a case of being able to reach 200apm, it's knowing why you need 200apm to begin with, and all that comes down to is practice, every normal person has the capacity to play with high apm, if your fingers can move that fast, you can play with high apm. For example, if I were to type out a random sequence of numbers and letters (4 dd 2 s 1 s 3 e 4 aa, something like that but longer) you would at first look at it and do it very slowly, but as you became more familar with it, you would do it so fast to the point where it's second nature, and it's the exact same as playing sc2, just interpretting what needs to be done and executing it quickly.
When I first started, I played at around 60, and thought, theres no way I'll ever get to play at a 200-300 apm range.
Now, it's just the norm for me. and that's after around 3 months.
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I've played wc3 and starcraft for many many years, and have tried several times to do everything in my power to increase it, but I can never get it above 80apm. I am pushing 30 now, but even years ago I couldn't do it.
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I think a lot of Pro Athletes are at their best in their late 20's and early 30's so I don't see why it should be different for Starcraft 2. Maybe because they're always using their hands 8 hours a day and could develop wrist and hand problems.
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Also, compare that to my cousin for example who 3 weeks after buying SC2 was pushing 140apm. He's 19.
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I'm confused about what this thread is asking...
Spam your keyboard as fast as you can, that is your peak APM. Now try and make that spam actually do something? I'm fairly certain anyone with 2 working arms can get over 200 APM if they tried.
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If you're familiar with Gunz The Duel, the average player tends to keep a constant 300 APM without even thinking about it. Upwards of 600 isn't unusual for an intense fight =D
How's that APM for ya !
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On May 27 2010 23:53 IdrA wrote:
apm is determined by mental limitations, not physical ones. it is not hard to click 300 times a minute, but it requires a lot of practice to be able to know what to do without spending time thinking about it. thats what translates to speed.
This.
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On November 30 2010 09:57 Snuggles wrote:
If you're familiar with Gunz The Duel, the average player tends to keep a constant 300 APM without even thinking about it. Upwards of 600 isn't unusual for an intense fight =D
How's that APM for ya !
scbw pro by.hero has 500 average apm.
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On November 30 2010 10:04 whitelynx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 09:57 Snuggles wrote:
If you're familiar with Gunz The Duel, the average player tends to keep a constant 300 APM without even thinking about it. Upwards of 600 isn't unusual for an intense fight =D
How's that APM for ya ! scbw pro by.hero has 500 average apm.
500 APM is slow in Gunz my friend. But before making another remark remember that I kind of just brought up a random game to the table.
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well i can "spam" over 400 with one key but functional apm is more about unconscious reacting which doesn't really deteriorate with age the way physical prowess does. in boxing, the old guys know when to move even when they're old. they haven't forgotten nor are they mentally ill equipped to recognize the situation, but their body won't move as fast as their mind. i'm pretty confident that esports doesn't have this problem, and if it does, you have to be actually old and not just sports old... like 60 or something
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Physically, most people should be able to, but you have to remember that behind EVERY useful action there has to be a thought behind it. In order to go above 100-150 you actually have to think very fast. That takes a lot more practice/concentration than most people put into the game besides progamers.
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On November 30 2010 10:26 Snuggles wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 10:04 whitelynx wrote:On November 30 2010 09:57 Snuggles wrote:
If you're familiar with Gunz The Duel, the average player tends to keep a constant 300 APM without even thinking about it. Upwards of 600 isn't unusual for an intense fight =D
How's that APM for ya ! scbw pro by.hero has 500 average apm. 500 APM is slow in Gunz my friend. But before making another remark remember that I kind of just brought up a random game to the table.
It is impossible for any game to consider 500 apm as slow.
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Physically? I can get about 300 APM.
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Any retard can can hit the mouse button and click random keys and achieve 300APM. Your question is about useful APM though. This is completely dependent on the mental aspect of the game. Most every normal person is physically capable of high APM but may not be mentally capable of 200 useful APM.
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On November 30 2010 09:40 Ezze wrote:
I've played wc3 and starcraft for many many years, and have tried several times to do everything in my power to increase it, but I can never get it above 80apm. I am pushing 30 now, but even years ago I couldn't do it.
This is pretty interesting. Most responses to this thread so far are like "200APM no problem yo!". Are you actually good at SC2? Because then you'd pretty much be the prime example of what I was talking about earlier. A player who is very good but will always be limited by his rather low APM, thus never being able to reach pro level physically.
Btw. are we talking about 80 real APM here, or 80APM displayed in the SC2 APM Tab which would translate to about 120 actual APM?
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Reaching 200 APM is not like throwing a fastball; you don't need to be a freak of nature to be fast at a video game. It is almost 100% training your fingers and your mind. If anyone is capable of playing the piano (which I believe they are), then anyone is capable of playing at pro-level APM, if they train constantly.
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I'm almost 44 years old and am a Bronze player. I can hit 250APM when I get an adrenaline rush during a battle or know a big battle is about to take place, but no way can I sustain it. I can't even sustain 100 APM for longer than a minute or two. Most of the time I'm in the 40 APM for a game.
My last game was 33:25 and I ended up at 40APM with Protoss. The highest APM in a game was 58 APM as Zerg.
I do think I could work my way up to 75 APM if I could play 15 games EVERY day. However, I don't have the time to do that consistently. The more I play during a day the higher my APM goes.
Senior Circuit for SC2???
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In my opinion sure it's possible for any physically normal person to do it. The problem would only be motivation
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On November 30 2010 10:36 Uhh Negative wrote:
Any retard can can hit the mouse button and click random keys and achieve 300APM. Your question is about useful APM though. This is completely dependent on the mental aspect of the game. Most every normal person is physically capable of high APM but may not be mentally capable of 200 useful APM.
^Pretty much why I don't get the point of this thread.
200 APM is just over three actions a second, which may sound like a lot but it's really not.. Assuming a normal healthy person, achieving real 200 APM comes with practice practice practice and training. Incontrol isn't a great player because he can rip a city bus in half bare handed, he's a great player because he has dedicated so much time to training and practice.
It has been stressed over and over again, APM alone means nothing. So I again I don't understand the point of this thread.
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I find that I hit a much higher APM with Zerg. There's so much to do, between moving speedlings, overlords etc. around to be looking for things constantly, larva injecting, and spreading creep tumors. I guess it's really because I understand Zerg playstyle a lot more than the other races (and believe you me I'm not that good as Zerg anyway ). I can usually keep my APM around 120 if I'm on my game, (Yes I'm bad. Cheers!) but I like to think that I could definitely improve. By that thought process, yes I think average people could break 200 apm, but it requires a bit of practice and knowing what you should be doing at every moment in the game. That way, you can easily keep up steady apm throughout even the later stages. I like to think of APM as a measure of how fast your brain is moving as well as how fast your fingers are moving, assuming that it's being put to use. Brains can easily be trained to think faster, it just understands a certain amount of understanding of what you're doing.
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On November 30 2010 09:05 Chronopolis wrote:
It would actually be quite interesting (fucking crazy, but still interesting) if a player could abuse apm. Just because they can physically play faster than thier opponent eg. they know the player can only manage 5 drops, so they they drop in 6 places at once
Watch some classic Bisu games in BW
This is exactly what he does, and its fucking insane.
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Honestly I think I could only barely maintain 200 APM over 5 minutes or longer, and that's if random mass clicking was the only thing I focused on (without even playing the game).
I do maintain 90-100 no problem nowadays, but it's pretty much a cap for me. I also feel like I'm clicking insanely fast on 100 APM =p
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I think I'm an exception, but I've always had slow fingers(it held me back in high school band, playing the trumpet), and I have the lowest amp by a good bit of anyone I've seen play in an even match for a good while. I'm a 2400~ Protoss on the NA server, and I still average 70-75 amp. I don't do any spamming and peak in key moments at around 140, but I seem to get everything I need done. I'm sure I can get faster, and am working on it, but I'm not at all sure I can get my average apm to 200. Well see.
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idra said he plays at like ~125 apm, so i geuss hes not pro. People miss what apm is really about most of the time. If you are just spamming keys to get to 250-300 apm it is probably hurting your game, since you are paying attention to how fast you can press keys rather than what you should be paying attention too. Your average lamen is going to play at about 30-40 apm, while your average diamond is maybe 50apm. Now there are people who have 200 apm, but their true apm is something like 50 if you take away key spamming and random clicking. In all honesty I think there is about a limit that no one can do more than ~150(except maybe nada) apm with TRUE ACTIONS, no spamming, every click a useful one etc. There is just no way you can do that many things in a minute(especially with the way sc2 counts apm)In battle I'll see my apm jump to 500-600 sometiems if I am really cookin, But that doesnt mean i am a 500 apm player... My average is more like 75, cause I dont click just to click(except in the beginning to warm up)My eyes might be doing 500 looks per minute, but I find it hard to believe that anyone can do 200 apm all game and make every action a useful one. Imo you can be pro with 50apm(maybe not korean pro, but global pro)
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i have carpole tunnel myself and around 4 mins into an intenseive sitautin i cramp that instnatley take soff 100apm, considering i'm a 40-120 avg apm player, i can't trust blizzard apm though as i i can get a avg apm of 4500 or more whichis obiousley retarded
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anyone is physically capable of reaching 200 apm, it just takes practice, when comparing APM, use musical instruments go youtube famous instrument players, and just sit there in awe at how fast their hands are moving, that is because they practice one crazy long session after the next, anything with the human hand, with practice will reach amazing speeds. thats just human nature. WE ARE INCREDIBLE creatures on this planet we called earth. Believe it and love it. haha what a ramble but i still made my point.
myself personally, 100-150 apm, and i play maybe once a day. its just the way it is when you've practice enough, your hands never forget how to move.
also keep in mind guitar hero, those guys are nuts, but simply because they practiced enough.
+ Show Spoiler [not a famous guitar player, but fast!] +
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This might sound cliche but...
You can do anything you put your mind to.
The people who succeed in Starcraft, and in most things, are people who say "That person can do X, there is no reason I can't do it." People who blame it on it being "physically impossible" for them to do so are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I don't think having 200 APM is a necessity to play well, but if you really want to play with high APM, then just do it. Play and practice and focus on doing it and you will.
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i think its worth noting that lots of stuff is impossible to the average person, not because of genetics or whatever, but because they simply havent trained for it.
A marathon would literally kill someone who is ill prepared, yet their are lots of ultramararthoners who can do 160k (almost 4x marathon distance) at incredible speeds.
likewise, we wont know about an apm cap until we've had people playing starcraft from birth for 10 years 10 hours a day
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The sky is the limit for anything in life. If you want to play the lead guitar part in Judas Priest's "Painkiller" all you have to do is practice. There is no unreachable goal.
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On November 30 2010 09:05 indigoawareness wrote:
I can't seem to get much over 250 even straight spamming but then again maybe I'm special. I also wonder what's the absolute minimum apms needed. For the first few mins it must really not be more then 10. I do enjoy putting 200 apms of effort into making the critcal first pylon though.
And what a pylon that must be.
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On November 30 2010 10:40 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 09:40 Ezze wrote:
I've played wc3 and starcraft for many many years, and have tried several times to do everything in my power to increase it, but I can never get it above 80apm. I am pushing 30 now, but even years ago I couldn't do it. This is pretty interesting. Most responses to this thread so far are like "200APM no problem yo!". Are you actually good at SC2? Because then you'd pretty much be the prime example of what I was talking about earlier. A player who is very good but will always be limited by his rather low APM, thus never being able to reach pro level physically. Btw. are we talking about 80 real APM here, or 80APM displayed in the SC2 APM Tab which would translate to about 120 actual APM?
I'm not very good by anyone's standards. I'm sitting at about 1900pts 52% win rate, and about 1000 1v1 games. My SC2 displayed APM is about 60 so I figured that was about 80 actual APM.
Like I said earlier, I have tried pretty hard to increase it, but I just can't. It's not a mind limitation either, I can think of several things to do, just can't actually execute them as fast physically.
Over the years, I have probably played over 300 games just for APM practice, spamming as HARD as I could, and the best I ever got for a 10+ min game was about 110 actual APM, but my play actually suffered as most of it was just useless spamming.
I honestly don't get how anyone can have 200+ APM in terms of useful actions. It seems impossible.
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I've had cerebellar trauma and cannot use my right hand for repetitive motions. I can now reach about 100 APM and after that my right hand cannot click any faster. I used to be able to spam 700ish and maybe play effectively with 150 in years past. My left hand can still go quickly, so my keyboard skills are just the same.
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and? Do you think that spamming to get high apm is hard? It is about effective apm during the game not about silly spamming.
But you made me to do it:
+ Show Spoiler +
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APM gets better the better your muscle memory gets at chunking your actions. If you have played enough to develop the kind of muscle memory that you can just thinking "macro from my barracks" and your fingers hit all the right keys. If you are thinking "3aa4dd" or something, thats way less efficient, muscle memory is the key to APM I think, and it comes from consistency and practice, nothing else. Granted, some people are going to have purely better natural talent, but I think very few people are physically unable to hit 100-200 actions per minute if their brain/muscle memory is up to the task.
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I think that everyone could do it. but their effort required might be different, For example, Someone might need only a few games and a basic knowledge of the game to gain 200 usefull apm.
While the other guy may have needed 500 games played plus alot of practise games to gain that number.
besides APM spamming is childsplay, trying to put it to good use is the hard part.
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On November 30 2010 10:03 NeoOmega wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2010 23:53 IdrA wrote:
apm is determined by mental limitations, not physical ones. it is not hard to click 300 times a minute, but it requires a lot of practice to be able to know what to do without spending time thinking about it. thats what translates to speed. This.
Well I disagree.
If I know all actions I need to make in next 10 seconds, for example, inject bases, build evo chamber, build units and spead creep, I still can't do that very fast and my precision is not that good. If you watch pro players they just click and build everything much faster and their precision is much better. I can't even click on minimap precise and fast..
If you order to make 10 actions in a row to regular player and same action for pro, then pro will make them much faster.
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Here's the scoop about apm:
It shouldn't be used as a standard! It's just too easy to fake/abuse. I can easily click 4 times for each move command and reach 400apm, but I'm actually playing worse than when I'm playing at 150.
Also it's skewed in that it's the average over the entire game. A person can have 300 apm at the start of the game spamming but then when it comes to the part where apm really counts (army battles/multiple drops) then drops to 50. On the other hand, a passive player who doesn't need to do much to keep perfect macro can have 100 the whole game, but spike at 400 when his actions are really needed.
So don't use apm as a benchmark for success. It's too vague: just look at your games and pinpoint your weaknesses. Is your scout always dying? Your multitasking needs to improve. Not knowing your army is engaging until too late? You have to work on your awareness.
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Are we able to assume that "everyone" includes only people that have no physical disabilities that may hinder movement or brain function permitting 200 useful APM in starcraft 2? If so, then yes, absolutely. I think that with enough repetition, everyone could have a useful APM at or around 200.
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When it comes to APM, I'm pretty perplexed. I can type 140 wpm, yet my APM in SC isn't that much higher than that number. I just started using APM live the other day and I'm utterly confused at how most people I play seem to have over 400 APM during the first 2 minutes. I mean, there isn't jack s to do. It's hard to not feel like a clown when you're spamming that much when you could do like 20 actions per minute and be playing optimally...
I'd like to hear about APM training and how some players got theirs over something like 220. It would be nice to have a high real APM; not the APM that most people have in the first 2 minutes when they are using 10000 clicks to accomplish the same thing you do in 1.
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I'd expect most people can while spamming. Hell, I got to 804 apm while spamming early game one time. I'm sure there are some who physically may not be able, but at least you can still play well with much less. But it's more a drain on the brain to make 200 useful actions in a minute.
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Anyone without a physical disability could reasonably hit 300-400 apm. It would just be spamming. Hotkey 3 things and switch between them while clicking madly, boom 400 APM. It's being able to intelligently use 200 apm that makes the pros pros.
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Unless someone has arthritis moving your fingers to hit 200 keys in one minute is not hard at all, anyone in the world who lacks the aforementioned condition can do it. However, having 200 useful APM, and sustaining that APM for one, 10, 30 games in a row, that may not be doable by just anyone.
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Funny actually. I remember when I started out playing Sc2 I get tired of spamming in the beginning. Now I really like spamming in the first 1-2 mins, and cant force my self not to do it.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On November 30 2010 10:30 whitelynx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 10:26 Snuggles wrote:On November 30 2010 10:04 whitelynx wrote:On November 30 2010 09:57 Snuggles wrote:
If you're familiar with Gunz The Duel, the average player tends to keep a constant 300 APM without even thinking about it. Upwards of 600 isn't unusual for an intense fight =D
How's that APM for ya ! scbw pro by.hero has 500 average apm. 500 APM is slow in Gunz my friend. But before making another remark remember that I kind of just brought up a random game to the table. It is impossible for any game to consider 500 apm as slow.
Apparently performing 8.3' actions per second is not enough for that game lol
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On January 09 2011 02:57 Telcontar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2010 10:30 whitelynx wrote:On November 30 2010 10:26 Snuggles wrote:On November 30 2010 10:04 whitelynx wrote:On November 30 2010 09:57 Snuggles wrote:
If you're familiar with Gunz The Duel, the average player tends to keep a constant 300 APM without even thinking about it. Upwards of 600 isn't unusual for an intense fight =D
How's that APM for ya ! scbw pro by.hero has 500 average apm. 500 APM is slow in Gunz my friend. But before making another remark remember that I kind of just brought up a random game to the table. It is impossible for any game to consider 500 apm as slow. Apparently performing 8.3' actions per second is not enough for that game lol
Well, GunZ is mostly doing the same action and repeat, so you are in fact clicking a certain number of keys without really thinking. SC2 has a bit more thought put in each click.
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Apm means nothing with out the right decision making behind it. You only need enough apm to multi task your units and race mechnics most of these "300-500 apm heroes" Are just spam clicking way too much.
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Who out of high lvl players did you see having highest average apm in sc2?
From what I have seen most high level players has <180 apm, while Zenio gets like ~280 in a long macro game. It's just crazy to have that much o_O
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On November 30 2010 09:10 Powster wrote:
200 apm doesnt seem that high... I am sure if I tried I could get to 200 apm in a month. I believe you can force your APM.. I have done it many times. I forced myself to play faster and at first it was kinda sloppy but when you keep doing it you will speed up and your average APM will rise. Maybe I can do that though because I used to play gunz at 600 APM.. so just like 100-150 apm is really slow to me just I havent played enough to know what I need to do at all times automatically.. Really late into a game when theres not much thinking needed though my APM rises a lot which is why I win late game 95% of the time since people slow down at the point while my APM rises every minute..
Personally I think 300-350ish will be a good amount to be having crazy micro and macroing at the same time.. but dunno because I am obviously not close to being there lol..
well we're talking SC2 APM...
and 200 SC2 APM is equiv to 300 SC1 APM...
so 300 SC2 APM is equiv to 450 SC1 APM... which is beyond insane
aka, you want to be in the 200s, which is why the poll was asked if everyone can reach 200? or do you have to be of a certain "breed"
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I sat down one day a couple of years ago and decided to get 350 apm, then did it in a few weeks.
Unless you have a problem with your fingers that prevents you from being able to click that fast for prolonged periods of time you can easily be that fast. It's just defeatist thinking to think otherwise.
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Once upon a time I'd have said yes, anyone should be able to hit 200 useful APM.
Then I played World of Warcraft....
No, especially if you have problems not standing in fire.
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On November 30 2010 09:39 Homerclese wrote:
I think what most people will find that as your ability to multitask gets better, your APM will go with it.
I don't think it's a case of being able to reach 200apm, it's knowing why you need 200apm to begin with, and all that comes down to is practice, every normal person has the capacity to play with high apm, if your fingers can move that fast, you can play with high apm. For example, if I were to type out a random sequence of numbers and letters (4 dd 2 s 1 s 3 e 4 aa, something like that but longer) you would at first look at it and do it very slowly, but as you became more familar with it, you would do it so fast to the point where it's second nature, and it's the exact same as playing sc2, just interpretting what needs to be done and executing it quickly.
When I first started, I played at around 60, and thought, theres no way I'll ever get to play at a 200-300 apm range.
Now, it's just the norm for me. and that's after around 3 months.
I'm still playing at around 50-60 APM after ~7 months though I am mid diamond with over 2000 points. I just don't see the need to spam the hell out of the buttons when I have no money to do anything.
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watch nada play, most of his "actions" are cycling through his production buildings while he's looking at something else. if you have 5 armies/buildings hotkeyed, and you use 5 fingers on your left hand, anyone's capable of achieving 300+ APM just by hitting each of your hotkeys each second. i can't imagine this is necessary unless you're very serious about competing at starcraft 2. That method of production is very reliable and very inefficient in terms of physical movement. You'll rarely miss a production cycle if you've trained yourself to constantly cycle through your production while moving your armies.
The actual APM required to play perfectly is higher than any number you can say, because an infinite apm world where you control each unit on the field and position them perfectly is better than one where you cannot do that.
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Of course there's no *physical* APM cap. I'm a piano teacher; but even my few 60+ year old students play pieces that are probably about 700 "APM". NOBODY is physically incapable of playing SC2 at 300 APM. Not even close. Good pianists shouldn't have any trouble playing at 1000 "APM". I've even had a physically disabled student who was playing at probably 300 or so APM.
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If you're talking about real APM and not starcraft 2 APM then everyone should easily be able to hit 200 APM without deliberate spamming. i hover around 190 myself at the current moment and i'm not incredibly fast by any means (~140-150 sc2 apm).
If you're talking 200 sc2 apm (~280-300 real apm) Even this is achievable. It's really fast, sure. But when you get comfortable with the game and sitting on your ass macroing gets boring, you'll start finding opportunities to be really busy, say with little drops, harassing expansions, attacking while dropping another location, dropping multiple locations at once.
Once you refine your mechanics enough and you have the opportunity to start doing creative things with your gameplay, that alone will increase your apm, because your macro will basically be set it and forget it, so you'll be free to think on the fly and be in multiple places at once.
Alot of being busy with your hands has to do with comfort really. If you have a good feel for your cooldowns and an awareness of the minimap, money and supply, your hand speed just naturally increases (in a beneficial way obv)
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The average person should have no problem reaching 200 APM, with practice if needed. Heck I just spammed as hard as I could one game just to see how fast I could move, and the result was 808 in-game APM. However this number is useless because there's no way that I have the mental capacity to use it in a meaningful way (with a metric ton of practice, I might be able to get close to that number and make it useful).
Also, to make a clarification on physical limitations, age is simply not a limiting factor in being able to react fast enough. Remember we're talking about minute movements, this physically isn't even remotely the same as what a professional athlete does and precisely why they have shorter careers. A better correlation would be professional musicians. Plenty of them work until they are quite old. For example, the pianist Artur Rubinstein played professionally well into his 80's.
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90% of pros spam as hell
~90-100 apm are enough to play  and  on prolvl
120-140 apm should be enough for 
dont get why ppl look so much at apm - its just a useless number after all. what counts is what u make out of it.
i play recently with 80-90 apm, if i concentrate on spam apm i have no probs to reach 200 - but i play worse than with 85.
€: talking about sc2 apm, the factor is 1,38 as we all know
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recently I've been thinking about APM, and by that I mean the actual APM that you do sensible stuff with, not max spamming, multi-clicking or whatever.
Pretty much everyone agrees that you don't need an insane amount of APM to be successful at SC2, but 150-200 APM seems to be a reasonable 'needed' amount to play at pro level. However, one particular question came up.
Is it physically impossible for some people to reach said amount of APM? Of course it is impossible for disabled people, mouse only players, etc. but I'm talking about the average guy here. Two healthy arms, one healthy brain, everything in the right place to play SC2.
What do you guys think? Does every player have his personal APM limit that might very well lie below ~200 or do you think that everybody should be able to reach 200APM with enough practice?
If a guy can spam useless actions with mouse and keyboard at over 200 apm (which is incredibly easy for pretty much anyone that isnt phisically disabled), then there is nothing physically stopping him from making all of those actions useful.
Why would anyone have an apm "cap" below 200? Im pretty sure that being unable to use each hand twice per second would count as a serious physical disability.
If you are physically able to spam, then there is nothing physically limiting your useful apm below that of your spm.
Its all mental at that point.
And yes. Im pretty sure a lot of people have mental restrictions that will stop them fro thinking about 200 things or more each minute.
Just as there are some people with ADHD that have trouble focusing on less than a certain number.
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I got 700 apm just by holding down a single button. (in this case it was the raise/lower supply depot button) So as for physically tapping a button I'm not so sure.
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200 apm isn't that much. people can reach well over 300. (usually korean broodwar players cuz of broodwars terrible ai etc.)
only thing that is stopping anyone from reaching 200+ apm is their knowledge as to what they should be doing. If you know what youre supposed to, macro/micro at the same time, you should reach 200 no problem.
People just tends to get too focused on either micro or macro. just one. which keeps their apm below 100.
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I have trouble believing anything (that isn't considered a serious disability) will keep a person from increasing APM.
The only way you improve at anything in life is repetition and reflection. Seriously. Repetition. Reflection. Do that about a million times ^^
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you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.
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APM is more mind than hands... Most non-handicapped people can press buttons really fast, but u have to have something do with it - it has to be useful. Thats where the mind comes in... Either way, i dont think u need more than 200 apm as a "pro", but it never hurts having more... If you have infinity APM, and your mind has infinity brainpower as well, your units would never die because of micro, and all units would end up at 1hp after the end of a battle (hypothetically speaking).
so in the end, apm does matter, but it has to be useful
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On November 30 2010 09:24 ZoW wrote:afaik the known record in a televised game is held by Julyzerg at 818 peak apm. .
That's spam there though, it's spamclicking while mutamicroing and isn't exactly effective, his avg is alot lower as well. I think effort had the highest average APM out of the progamers along with Hero, both had 500+ in multiple games.
On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.
Need to watch more FPVODs
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I think that everyone can get over 200 AMP.
When i started playing SC2 i had maybe 80 AMP at max. Now im capable of 200 AMP. So why cant i be 300 AMP in next two years ? I think that AMP is learn able by practice.
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On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.
Pros are constantly checking their unit producing structures, which consists of constant hotkeying (term?). If you look at many replays in the view of a pro you see the hotkeys flickering, but not to spam. They are doing it to keep up with progress.
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On January 09 2011 05:54 darunia wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well. Pros are constantly checking their unit producing structures, which consists of constant hotkeying (term?). If you look at many replays in the view of a pro you see the hotkeys flickering, but not to spam. They are doing it to keep up with progress.
pretty sure they aren't that dumb and know generally how long said units takes to come out of a structure, they don't need to do it every second throughout the entire game, which is what they do.
personally i have around 100 normally with only spamming in the first minute or 2. then i never spam. one game i semi-spammed throughout various parts of the game and got 150apm. that was 50 useless apm.
there is no such thing as 200 effective apm in sc2. in sc1 yes, sc2 no.
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In wc3 it was recognized by some major european players, that you only really needed like 140 apm. Most exceeding that would be spam.
Now, sc2 controls are much like wc3, however battles are shorter and with much less micro. Microing is what really uses the most apm (again not talking about silly mass spamming here).
In sc2 however you have way more macro mechanics, hence while they require less apm, there's more of them, which can amount to alot of apm usage for later games.
I'd call the need about even between the 2 games, hence you would only need 110 SC2 apm (because of the Faster clock its like 140 normal apm)
Everything else is bad pointless clicking and excessive spam.
Edit: This is ofc average apm its easy to spike waay higher.
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On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
there is no such thing as 200 effective apm in sc2. in sc1 yes, sc2 no.
You are really wrong here. So you want to say that 200 apm is enough for perfect micro, macro and multitasking in late game for sc2?
On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
personally i have around 100 normally with only spamming in the first minute or 2. then i never spam. one game i semi-spammed throughout various parts of the game and got 150apm. that was 50 useless apm.
So you want to say that you are playing perfect game with your 100apm? Every your action is perfect, right?
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How fast come someone click the mouse twice?
.1 sec? usually i remember only being able to do it in like .15 generally.
So a click every .15 is the max really. So thats.... 6.3 clicks per second.
So thats ~360 APM max for muscle twitch factors.
Is that wrong somehow? Can people twice in .05 sec? I doubt it
EDIT: but i guess they do have more than 1 mouse button and 2 hands. There is a physical limit though.
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unless you're old (like older than 50), have arthritis or some rheumatic disease 200 apm shouldnt be a problem
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
I type at 300 characters per minute. I don't consider myself a particularly good typist, talented people go over 1000. But if you consider that APM, then it's 300 USEFUL APM (since every character is needed). For an average person. I don't really see the point of this discussion, people who keep saying they are too slow physically to be able to compete in SC are just making excuses.
The only thing that hinders your APM from going through the roof is your mind, not your hands. Anyone who keeps telling SC is too hard mechanically doesn't have a clue.
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IF you practice enough there is no reason why you can 't have 200apm.
Its probably less useful as protoss though.
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to break it, spam like shit. there 500 apm for you.
but averaging 200 apm takes a while and requires lots of dedication to practice.
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I've been playing a ton of starcraft for over a year. (switched to sc2 in beta) my apm was originally around 40 and I'm around 80 now, on a good day. I'm 29 years old and my first rts was dune (1992). I doubt I'll ever reach 200+ apm. I don't think I need to. I beat people now who have around 200 apm. 80 useful actions per minute (I do hit 150 range time to time while doing micro but I can't sustain it, and get sloppy when I try to go too fast) With good multitasking, strategy, being able to read your opponent, being creative and unpredictable can go quite a long way to make up for a lack of raw speed.
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On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 05:54 darunia wrote:On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well. Pros are constantly checking their unit producing structures, which consists of constant hotkeying (term?). If you look at many replays in the view of a pro you see the hotkeys flickering, but not to spam. They are doing it to keep up with progress. pretty sure they aren't that dumb and know generally how long said units takes to come out of a structure, they don't need to do it every second throughout the entire game, which is what they do. personally i have around 100 normally with only spamming in the first minute or 2. then i never spam. one game i semi-spammed throughout various parts of the game and got 150apm. that was 50 useless apm. there is no such thing as 200 effective apm in sc2. in sc1 yes, sc2 no.
Muscle memory. Continuously doing one thing is much better then doing it, then stopping, then doing it, etc. The actions are not useless at all if it benefits your game. If you've watched Jaedong FPVODs, even though he only hotkeys up to 7 and has only four hatchery hotkeys, he still, even in the midst of the heaviest battle in the game, just scrolls through the four keys, maybe tells 3 larvae to turn into lings, and doing so throughout the entire game makes the pros who they are.
Besides, it is impossible to have no redundant apm. Progamers average around 30-40% redundancy and when I play, I get around 20% when I'm, as you did, only spamming in early game.
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you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.
Well first of all, the human brain can work super fast, just because yours doesnt doesnt mean its impossible.
Second of all, APM means actions per minute, not decisions per minute.
I need to drop his base. 1 decision.
double tap hotkey to go to correct screen, select group of units, one too many shift click it out, load into medivac, select medivac, send medivac to opponent's base via edge of the screen, queue unit unload, hotkey medivac to separate ctrl group
X, X, click, shift, click, click, click, slick, shift, click, shift, D, click, ctrl, Y
1 simple enough decision, 15 actions required to carry it out, perhaps more. You can spend 5 seconds thinking about what you will do next. Perhaps macro?
double tap hotkey, mule twice, select rax, make units, select factory, make units, select starport, make units, ceck up on upgrading structures, make more upgrade if needed. one decision, lots of actions, again.
Even something as simple as making a depot. If youve played enough games, you probably dont even need to think about making a depot. it becomes automatic.
But even a simple thought like that requires multiple actions. select SCV, build stuff, select depot, select placement, shift click back to mineral line. 6 actions. If it takes you 2 seconds to think about building a depot, and 5 to thinjk about doing a drop, then you could be playing at 200 APM.
The reason people have less APM isnt because they arent spamming uselessly, its mostly because they have a lot of idle time.
Idle structures doing nothing, units sitting aroung not scouting, not poking, not killing destructible rocks, energy building up on macro mechanics, and so on.
They are doing a drop, they are looking at the drop, units are fighting, they watch the units fighting, and so on. While not doing much during that time.
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X, X, click, shift, click, click, click, slick, shift, click, shift, D, click, ctrl, Y
1 simple enough decision, 15 actions required to carry it out, perhaps more. You can spend 5 seconds thinking about what you will do next. Perhaps macro?
double tap hotkey, mule twice, select rax, make units, select factory, make units, select starport, make units, ceck up on upgrading structures, make more upgrade if needed. one decision, lots of actions, again.
lol makes me wonder what SC2 would be like if it were text based...
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http://www.ebaumsworld.com/games/play/1145/
I can do this in like 3.xxx seconds, there are 15 numbers to click, so its like 15 actions in 3 seconds.
That would be like 300 Apm, and this is only with one hand (Mouseapm). I totally doubt that there is anyone who can't reach 200 useful apm.
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Of course. Given you have a healthy brain, it's just a matter of time before you play enough and have enough experience so that you don't have to think as much, and there are more and more things you can do quicker with less effort and thought.
Also, why do people look down on "spam"? What is spam? Spam is something totally useless, right?
Thing is, APM isn't useless. It's never ever useless. At least, I can't think of one instance where it's absolutely useless. Spam at the beginning? It's for warm up. "Spam" clicking when moving units isn't useless either. It keeps you more alert and faster to adapt to the situation (if suddenly you need to go left just a tad or something, for example), can help keep focus on exactly where you're going, and making sure the AI doesn't do any stupid pathing moves or such.
How fast come someone click the mouse twice?
.1 sec? usually i remember only being able to do it in like .15 generally.
So a click every .15 is the max really. So thats.... 6.3 clicks per second.
So thats ~360 APM max for muscle twitch factors.
Is that wrong somehow? Can people twice in .05 sec? I doubt it
EDIT: but i guess they do have more than 1 mouse button and 2 hands. There is a physical limit though.
lol i was gonna say, uh, you forgot the keyboard part, but u fixed it 
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On January 09 2011 06:54 darunia wrote:
lol makes me wonder what SC2 would be like if it were text based...
You do not have SVC in your inventory.
>_
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i think of apm like tricks in football, you dont need to be able to do them to become a good player but they add that wow factor and occasionally give you a slight advantage. every single top player i watch spams so it really is immpossible to tell how much apm is actually needed. i'm actually more impressed by good players with low apm as there play is far more efficient. am i the only one who thinks this way???
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I can probably get to 200 peak in SC2 and remember >250 peak in some Warcraft 3 ladder replays but my average is more like 40.
Could be because I've almost never spammed. No click-selecting buildings in the beginning, no clicking every pixel on the move path etc. So I don't get to warmp up like those dudes who start off spamming but are in the right mode when when they do need to do stuff.
I have a fine motorics impairment in my dominant hand plus something to do with coordination, same thing that destroys my handwriting, and tend to be useless at sports. So I probably have some handicap where it matters. I don't think I'm ever going to exceed 100 average (perhaps 75 in my top form at War3).
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People have misconceptions about APM.
APM is not up to humans physical abilites, it is about mental checklist and and memory.
Everyone can spam keyboard 300 times per minute, but not so many can remember to do certain complex things 300 times per minute. If you remember to do all things you need to do in every second, your hands will immediately or after slight practise follow your brain and make that 300 apm to happen.
200-300 apm usually is possible only after multiple bases and in that stage it is hard to remember everything. Everything over 150 apm in one base is just faking.
Sure you can spam your keyboard for nothing, but it does not contribute your game play.
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APM is not limited by your hands but by your mind. if you can reasonably type with two hands on a keyboard you can physically do 200 APM. however chances are some players can't think of and remember 200 things to do a minute every minute which prevents there APM from rising.
EDIT: Foxt has said the same thing above.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
No, really:
http://play.typeracer.com/
Just change the WPM to CPM after a race and you will see the right number. This is your keyboard handicap, and it can be improved pretty fast. Mouse is a bit harder, but totalling 200 with both is nothing special.
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On November 30 2010 09:23 Stenstyren wrote:There is of course a limit to how much data your brain can handle at the same time, we can say that you as a human have a limited amount of RAM. Now, let's say that all humans have 1G ram. 600mb of that is spent on background processes, you know, MSN (social stuff), explorer (important body stuff) etc. Now, this gives us 400mb of ram to utilize for SC2. What we want to do is to index SC2 into our brain so that searching for files goes faster, just like the first virus search always take ages while the following ones are quite quick. Now your brain have indexed that probes are made with "e" and terrans do stupid pushes around the 7 minute mark. That takes 50mb to uphold. So, having indexed SC2 perfectly and shut down as many background processes as possible you can now start playing. Every click you do uses up a small bit of your ram. Eventually your ram will run out. However, it's very hard to say at exactly which number of apm you will reach that limit since so many factors play in. How well is the game indexed? Are my background processes using up unnecessary memory? Is my brain infected with malicious software? Yes, there is a cap, but that cap is at how many actions you could do if you could utilize the full 1G potential of your brain, thus eliminating all the memory hogs. The more memory you cut from other things, the more apm you can do. Lol, this went too far What I'm trying to say is that there is a cap but that cap is unreachable since you will ALWAYS be able to be just a bit more focused and just a tad more alert. However, I do think think that the realistic cap varies from human to human, i would say that all normal functioning humans can get to 200 apm with enough practice and dedication, I'm not so sure that everyone could get to 300 or 350 though.
i love the anaology with RAM but some of us have more RAM to play with than others.
I can play sc2 and have a stream on and know exactly what is happening at any time in both, my eyes on my game and my ears on ths stream. There's probably some people who couldn't follow both at once. I have an idetic memory, meaning i remember things very very easily and therefore use less time and energy on recalling information than some people might which means we then need to talk about the speed of your RAM too.....
anyways, I think everyone has their own personal APM cap based upon many factors not just including how fast your brain can make decisions. your co-ordination, level of intelligence, strategic thinking, ability to touch type and a hundred other factors are involved in defining your personal APM cap
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Human brains has limits, but starcraft 2 doesnt reach those in any individual.
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Im sure the majority of gamers can reach 200apm in other games. Its just that they spike and then have downtime, whereas SC is a juggling game where you always have to keep things in motion because nothing looks after itself.
Im also pretty sure the average WoW player uses more hotkeys than a SC2 player in a typical game. Something like guitar hero is going to have comparable APM.
So SC isn't that remarkable in speed or number of commands.
The problem is mostly pressure and multitasking with a timing component, while responding to what is going on without dropping/neglecting the various macro/micro functions you need to attend to constantly.
The reason you don't commonly see high APM is firstly that the controls are clunky, especially the default controls which are all over the keyboard, grid is a nice start but it has its problems too. Secondly there is speed of thought and diligence of action required which people wont have. They are capable of making the actions if they could remember to do them all.
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On January 09 2011 06:15 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
there is no such thing as 200 effective apm in sc2. in sc1 yes, sc2 no. You are really wrong here. So you want to say that 200 apm is enough for perfect micro, macro and multitasking in late game for sc2? Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
personally i have around 100 normally with only spamming in the first minute or 2. then i never spam. one game i semi-spammed throughout various parts of the game and got 150apm. that was 50 useless apm. So you want to say that you are playing perfect game with your 100apm? Every your action is perfect, right?
Reading comprehension, do you have it?
Did I ever say I am the perfect player? I am saying that yes maybe it is possible to have 200 EAPM, but anything MORE than that is just bollocks. The way control groups, MBS, worker rally, etc work in this game make EAPM go down compared to BW.
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Thinking about APM, two things immediately come to mind;
1) There are pretty good players who consistently tend to have lowish APM, especially i.e. Sjow and Goody, but also some others who might actually have 3-digit APM, but way less that 200. They can spike when needed, but they obviously hardly spam at all. Seeing Sjow again today in the Pokeridol tournament, he mostly played really well and at least I could not see him improve in direct relation to higher APM.
2) I think it's even hard to define useful (or maybe call it effective) APM for this matter. Just one example. One player might consistently cycle through his production/upgrade buildings, ensuring to not miss any production time. This can obviously be called useful.
Then again, another player might not feel the need to check the state of his production/upgrades every few seconds, because he's comfortable with his timing, only checking close to the end of a cycle. This is just one example that could potentionally make quite a difference in APM. Just a thought.
I'm not saying low APM is good or more effective, nor am I saying high APM is ineffective or mostly spamming. I just think different players feel comfortable with different mechanics and it's hard to pin a minimum number for APM that allows you to be good. If one were to do it, I honestly think it would be lower than 200 though. This is just considering average, I absolutely think you have to be able to spike 200+ and more when needed to be even partially competative.
Cheers,
JD
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There was an interesting thread on smashboards where they calculated super smash bros melee (very intense game for those who dont know) pro's apm, and lo and behold it came out to 200-300 on average
I think this is no coincidence, especially since the gameplay and controls are drastically different, yet we find the same range of apm in high level players
id be willing to bet if studies were made for a bunch of games the apm for high level player would also turn out in the 200-300 range
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On January 09 2011 09:58 NewbieOne wrote:
I can probably get to 200 peak in SC2 and remember >250 peak in some Warcraft 3 ladder replays but my average is more like 40.
Could be because I've almost never spammed. No click-selecting buildings in the beginning, no clicking every pixel on the move path etc. So I don't get to warmp up like those dudes who start off spamming but are in the right mode when when they do need to do stuff.
I have a fine motorics impairment in my dominant hand plus something to do with coordination, same thing that destroys my handwriting, and tend to be useless at sports. So I probably have some handicap where it matters. I don't think I'm ever going to exceed 100 average (perhaps 75 in my top form at War3).
...thats during like a specific point in game, by apm, i think OP ment avg apm, tbh most ppl can go over 600-800 during a specific point in game, but avg is lower
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I think the physical APM cap is probably around 600 BW APM. In SC2, my APM has hit 500+ a few times. I normally play at 140 SC2 APM which has gradually risen from 20APM ever since I started playing beta around patch 8 or so.
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I don't think there's a cap with respect to the human body, there's a cap with respect to the human mind. You can only think about so many things at once, and for some people that number is higher than others. I, for example, regularly hit 400+ SC2 apm when spamming the beginning of the game, but when I am actually playing, I go down to about 160-170. Sure, I can physically click at 400 apm, but I could never think at 400 apm level like NaDa does.
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On January 09 2011 13:45 Silidons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 06:15 Alpina wrote:On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
there is no such thing as 200 effective apm in sc2. in sc1 yes, sc2 no. You are really wrong here. So you want to say that 200 apm is enough for perfect micro, macro and multitasking in late game for sc2? On January 09 2011 06:08 Silidons wrote:
personally i have around 100 normally with only spamming in the first minute or 2. then i never spam. one game i semi-spammed throughout various parts of the game and got 150apm. that was 50 useless apm. So you want to say that you are playing perfect game with your 100apm? Every your action is perfect, right? Reading comprehension, do you have it? Did I ever say I am the perfect player? I am saying that yes maybe it is possible to have 200 EAPM, but anything MORE than that is just bollocks. The way control groups, MBS, worker rally, etc work in this game make EAPM go down compared to BW.
I think that's really not necessarily true. In ZvZ, for instance, there are some close-spawn Zergling+Baneling games where 400 APM average isn't even enough. It really depends on the situation.
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If your WPM is below 50, there's no way you can reach 200 apm in SC2.
There are many, many people who can't type 50 wpm... I think average is like 35? Of course I imagine the average SC2 player is higher, but still, 200 is inaccessible to the majority of the population.
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I started learning Dvorak keyboard a few years ago. It increased my speed by 20wpm I guessing, but learning another keyboard format is absolutely terrible for games. Spam clicking around alone with zerglings when you play against an AI with 6 pool for example will easily get you to 300apm instantly. The average apm is around 30% lower than the average highest apm from my experience.
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On January 09 2011 18:06 ChThoniC wrote:
If your WPM is below 50, there's no way you can reach 200 apm in SC2.
There are many, many people who can't type 50 wpm... I think average is like 35? Of course I imagine the average SC2 player is higher, but still, 200 is inaccessible to the majority of the population.
That's misleading. WPM usually takes things like proper punctuation and capitalization into effect. You can very easily type 50 words a minute, or at the very least have the speed to do so, without actually making it very fast on one of those tests. Because I don't need to know how to spell anesthesiologist correctly on the first go when I'm bouncing between my hatcheries making drones.
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The physical limit on APM is however fast you can spam with your mouse and keyboard with your computer OFF. And if you're unsure of whether you could ever have pro level APM, load up SC2 and do nothing all game but spam with your workers. Check the replay, and if you've achieved Boxer-level APM, congratulations, you could someday be pro! woohoo!
I'm pretty sure everyone has the physical capabilities to have pro-level APM, assuming you're not ridiculously old, out of shape, or disabled.
...
APM is how fast your brain can move, not your fingers.
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On January 09 2011 18:14 pfods wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 18:06 ChThoniC wrote:
If your WPM is below 50, there's no way you can reach 200 apm in SC2.
There are many, many people who can't type 50 wpm... I think average is like 35? Of course I imagine the average SC2 player is higher, but still, 200 is inaccessible to the majority of the population. That's misleading. WPM usually takes things like proper punctuation and capitalization into effect. You can very easily type 50 words a minute, or at the very least have the speed to do so, without actually making it very fast on one of those tests. Because I don't need to know how to spell anesthesiologist correctly on the first go when I'm bouncing between my hatcheries making drones.
Since when do WPM tests use anesthesiologist-type words? I'm about 90 WPM and 140 APM, so I obviously can improve my speed in SC2... But if someone has 30 WPM, it's hard to imagine that their hands are fast enough to handle 200 APM.
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On January 09 2011 20:53 ChThoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 18:14 pfods wrote:On January 09 2011 18:06 ChThoniC wrote:
If your WPM is below 50, there's no way you can reach 200 apm in SC2.
There are many, many people who can't type 50 wpm... I think average is like 35? Of course I imagine the average SC2 player is higher, but still, 200 is inaccessible to the majority of the population. That's misleading. WPM usually takes things like proper punctuation and capitalization into effect. You can very easily type 50 words a minute, or at the very least have the speed to do so, without actually making it very fast on one of those tests. Because I don't need to know how to spell anesthesiologist correctly on the first go when I'm bouncing between my hatcheries making drones. Since when do WPM tests use anesthesiologist-type words? I'm about 90 WPM and 140 APM, so I obviously can improve my speed in SC2... But if someone has 30 WPM, it's hard to imagine that their hands are fast enough to handle 200 APM.
If someone has 30 WPM then he can also improvie his WPM, right?
I don't think WPM has much to do with apm.
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On January 09 2011 21:03 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 20:53 ChThoniC wrote:On January 09 2011 18:14 pfods wrote:On January 09 2011 18:06 ChThoniC wrote:
If your WPM is below 50, there's no way you can reach 200 apm in SC2.
There are many, many people who can't type 50 wpm... I think average is like 35? Of course I imagine the average SC2 player is higher, but still, 200 is inaccessible to the majority of the population. That's misleading. WPM usually takes things like proper punctuation and capitalization into effect. You can very easily type 50 words a minute, or at the very least have the speed to do so, without actually making it very fast on one of those tests. Because I don't need to know how to spell anesthesiologist correctly on the first go when I'm bouncing between my hatcheries making drones. Since when do WPM tests use anesthesiologist-type words? I'm about 90 WPM and 140 APM, so I obviously can improve my speed in SC2... But if someone has 30 WPM, it's hard to imagine that their hands are fast enough to handle 200 APM. If someone has 30 WPM then he can also improvie his WPM, right? I don't think WPM has much to do with apm.
I'm just saying, typing speed is a good proxy for SC2 speed. It's easier to type quickly than to SC2 quickly, because typing uses minimal though, and playing SC2 uses a lot of brain power. I don't think anyone has more APM than letters per minute in typing...
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On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well.
Your sooooo wrong... when you get to that level everything that your doing in sc2 isn't even in the head of a pro his fingers are already doing them. I don't even know i'm injecting making drones and taking my 3rd I just am, The only thing I'm concerned about is unit positioning and where to transition my build to counter my opponent. If the game is standard I make very little decisions it's
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Since everyone uses 2 hands on the keyboard when typing, I guess typing speed with 1 hand becomes more interesting/relevant. A good typist should feel pretty confident in accuracy with letters and quickly hitting letters. However, I do feel weary at times of trying to hit certain numbers super quickly. I think the goal should be to be able to play without any kind of hesitation when it comes to keying anything. I don't know if I'm there, yet.
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On January 09 2011 21:35 Whomp wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 05:40 B.I.G. wrote:
you can convince me that 200 apm is all sensible moves. that would mean more then 3 decisions per second. i dont think the human brain works that fast. in other words: the pro's just spam as hell as well. Your sooooo wrong... when you get to that level everything that your doing in sc2 isn't even in the head of a pro his fingers are already doing them. I don't even know i'm injecting making drones and taking my 3rd I just am, The only thing I'm concerned about is unit positioning and where to transition my build to counter my opponent. If the game is standard I make very little decisions it's
exactly. a TON of my apm comes from stuff i sometimes i dont even fully realize im doing. checking status / locations of hotkeyed units/buildings, macro etc just happen.
i dont think "oh seems like i half a second time to macro during this fight! lets do it!" . i just hammer the sequence whenever my hands feel like there is a bit of freetime.
this applies to tons of stuff and this is a big reason why practice ,expirience,mechanics and knowledge are so important in sc2. because a ton of stuff will just happen without you actually having to think about it increasing your speed,efficiency and giving you more time to multitask or think over the current situation and plan stuff.
also dont forget that tons of actions are done because of one "decision". look at a basic situation like im fighting a P army early with roach/ling. its only one decision that i want to surround his stalkers/sentrys with my lings and have my roaches engaging the zeals at the front. but this simple plan requires TONS of clicks.
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Anyone who voted "Anyone should be able to break 200apm" needs to read:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163299
or
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=178095
Your view of the world is very limited, and really needs to be expanded.
The "average" person" is doesn't mean ignoring anyone with a physical handicap. Many, many people in various walks of life had limitations in some way or another. "Average" means the middle ground of the most and least capable, ending somewhere in the middle.
Most people would consider me an "average" person unless they were told otherwise, or lived with me. Yet, that's far from the truth when it comes to gaming.
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On November 30 2010 09:57 Snuggles wrote:
If you're familiar with Gunz The Duel, the average player tends to keep a constant 300 APM without even thinking about it. Upwards of 600 isn't unusual for an intense fight =D
How's that APM for ya !
Yeah but to execute one 'butterfly' move you use how many? 6-7 button mashes. And you do the same thing over and over. That is mostly about muscle memory (mashing the buttons quickly and in correct order) and could be considered as one select+move in SC or 4sd. In SC you need to think more about what you're doing since there are way more options and way more things to look for.
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On January 10 2011 00:32 Bumblebees wrote:
The "average" person" is doesn't mean ignoring anyone with a physical handicap. Many, many people in various walks of life had limitations in some way or another. "Average" means the middle ground of the most and least capable, ending somewhere in the middle.
Most people would consider me an "average" person unless they were told otherwise, or lived with me. Yet, that's far from the truth when it comes to gaming.
Which is why you are considered an exception to "Average person". Because of your disorder(s), you fall below the median line of performance. The definition of average is the middle ground of most capable and least capable, which means a person with no glaring disorders and no immense advantages. You have a glaring disorder, which directly effects your gameplay thus throwing you out of the average bracket.
If a person has to overcome a physical condition in order to perform at the median, they obviously fall into the "some people who can't physically reach 200 APM" category. Don't get me wrong, I have great admiration for what you have accomplished, but the only reason I have said admiration for your skills is because you are not average. It really seems as if you are trying to put yourself into the "Average" demographic for the sole purpose of being insulted...
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On January 09 2011 18:06 ChThoniC wrote:
If your WPM is below 50, there's no way you can reach 200 apm in SC2.
There are many, many people who can't type 50 wpm... I think average is like 35? Of course I imagine the average SC2 player is higher, but still, 200 is inaccessible to the majority of the population.
Average gamer is around 50-60 wpm, I believe. Average of 35 is for like... everyone (including adults who only started using computers in their 30's).
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I would argue at least a quarter of a pro's APM at any given time is useless APM.
So a pro at 200 "useful" APM probably has something like 260 APM.
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IdrA plays SC2 at like 140-160 average.... were did you get this "200+" from?
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On January 10 2011 01:53 Fa1nT wrote:
IdrA plays SC2 at like 140-160 average.... were did you get this "200+" from?
What idra has to do with this thread?
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On January 10 2011 01:44 sjschmidt93 wrote:
I would argue at least a quarter of a pro's APM at any given time is useless APM.
So a pro at 200 "useful" APM probably has something like 260 APM.
200 EAPM is really quite alot. The best in BW play with around 250 EAPM and around 350-400 APM.
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People really doubt the speed of hands and muscle memory. I'm a musician, so I'm used to this. But really technique should not hold anyone back. You probably just don't want to actually practice the repetitive motion. I can tongue at 560 articulations/minute. That's what? Almost 10 articulations/second? It's because I worked it up to that speed though. I can't pull that off unless I work it up.
Albeit that's a pretty fast single-tongue, but honestly look at your WPM sometimes and you realize you can pull off insanely fast, complicated, and precise motions with your hands. Physical limitations are not worth mentioning. And it's really just because you do them over and over and over and over...
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On January 10 2011 01:35 Fingulfin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2011 00:32 Bumblebees wrote:
The "average" person" is doesn't mean ignoring anyone with a physical handicap. Many, many people in various walks of life had limitations in some way or another. "Average" means the middle ground of the most and least capable, ending somewhere in the middle.
Most people would consider me an "average" person unless they were told otherwise, or lived with me. Yet, that's far from the truth when it comes to gaming. Which is why you are considered an exception to "Average person". Because of your disorder(s), you fall below the median line of performance. The definition of average is the middle ground of most capable and least capable, which means a person with no glaring disorders and no immense advantages. You have a glaring disorder, which directly effects your gameplay thus throwing you out of the average bracket. If a person has to overcome a physical condition in order to perform at the median, they obviously fall into the "some people who can't physically reach 200 APM" category. Don't get me wrong, I have great admiration for what you have accomplished, but the only reason I have said admiration for your skills is because you are not average. It really seems as if you are trying to put yourself into the "Average" demographic for the sole purpose of being insulted...
I wasn't talking specifically about myself, and I'm certainly not insulted! :D
My point was that there are many people who are perfectly capable in many ways who may have a limitation in another way. Only considering people who are perfectly fine as 'average' seems to exclude a very large part of the population.
I see it as being a poll that essentially asks "Can anyone get 200apm? Oh, and please don't consider people who can't physically reach 200apm."
That seems rather silly and unproductive to me to have a discussion around.
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200 APM is pretty low coming from BW lol.
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On January 09 2011 20:53 ChThoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2011 18:14 pfods wrote:On January 09 2011 18:06 ChThoniC wrote:
If your WPM is below 50, there's no way you can reach 200 apm in SC2.
There are many, many people who can't type 50 wpm... I think average is like 35? Of course I imagine the average SC2 player is higher, but still, 200 is inaccessible to the majority of the population. That's misleading. WPM usually takes things like proper punctuation and capitalization into effect. You can very easily type 50 words a minute, or at the very least have the speed to do so, without actually making it very fast on one of those tests. Because I don't need to know how to spell anesthesiologist correctly on the first go when I'm bouncing between my hatcheries making drones. Since when do WPM tests use anesthesiologist-type words? I'm about 90 WPM and 140 APM, so I obviously can improve my speed in SC2... But if someone has 30 WPM, it's hard to imagine that their hands are fast enough to handle 200 APM.
A lot of WPM tests take proper spelling into account and proper punctuation and all that, so if you miss a comma it adjusts your score for having to correct it, etc. Any human being on the planet that can type without looking at the keyboard can type 50 words per minute. it's really not at all hard to do especially when you aren't reading something to type but making it up on your own to type. WPM is a very arbitrary thing to use as an example of what your APM will be.
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When I think of "200 useful Actions Per Minute", I think of somebody who can play the game at very close to a semi-pro capacity, if not professionally. So if the question is whether anybody should be able to do that, the answer is no.
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1900D terran here. I have alot of experience with fighting games in tournaments, and i have amazing finger dexterity because of it. My current apm is about 190-220 per game for 26min game +. Its like if im not moving that fast it feels like im leaving alot out of my game and not play efficiently. to each there own though.
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Anybody can spam click with your mouse up to 500 apm.
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Sc2 apm right ? cause i rly cant understand artosis and tastless be so "wow" when seeing nada have 220 sc2 apm and say its NEARLY 400 (what it isnt its like 3xx ^^)
Well i think everyone can have a apm over 200 (sc2 that means like 280 real) without problem
In 300 games ~ apm myself is like 300apm (sc2apm)
And i dont feel i push myself to hard, with train i cant see anyone dont reach this BUT an older person ... jaeh its possible that players over 30 years or without any rts past cant reach this.
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It doesn't really matter, Speed is not as important as Accuracy!
But lets take me for example, i started SC2 around 2 weeks ago, your standart little noobie with 20~30 APM and i tought i was hot smack at the time.
But gradually over the past few weeks my APM increased to 50 while playing continously, then after to 60~70~80~90 and now i'm at 100 APM roughly.
And thats after just two weeks of progress and i still think that i'm pretty slow and could go faster.
All in all 150 apm isn't hard to achieve, you just have to play alot and keep your hands warmed up ;o
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The PHYSICAL cap is much higher than everyone here says. Everyone with 10 fingers can probably play at about 300 it's a question of the mental cap. For instance a player might start out with 20 apm a month later he plays with 60 and a month after that 100. It'll increases as you get used you ur hot keys. Physically everyone can move their fingers that fast if you've got a normal pair of hands. Useful apm however will be harder to do that fast it requires a lot of getting used to and also doing things that fast might come and bit u in the ass as if u try to play faster than you can mentally you'll just do sloppy mistakes. So I'd say there is no cap it's probably more of a X^-1 situation where it's always room for a possible increases but the increase decreases as you get to a higher apm cap.
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YES there is a cap.
If you go to a piano, click one key with your right hand.
And spam 2-4 keys with your left. Whatever that gets you lol.
Some people just have much more dexterity in their hand. My friend could spam 500 apm easily. Myself at max spam is like 400. And this is not even trying to do anything, JUST spamming.
Most people like have enough dexterity to play at a pro level, if they practiced. Some people can play at near that APM at least without much trouble
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This topic really puzzles me, and I believe it has more to do with age/ergonomics than people believe.
I used to be an aspiring bw player back in 2001-2002. I would play crazy hours each day just forcing myself mechanically to be as fast as possible. I ended up floating around 200 as my average. I was 12-13 and what was really limiting my play was the mental aspects of the game.
8 years of FPS gaming later SC2 gets released and now I play with teammates for fun when we aren't practicing other games. I seem to get stuck at a ceiling and it is rather low
less than 100 apm average, with 150-200 peak
I am quite confused on what is causing this as mentally I think very fast. I have always excelled at online gaming and been one of those "clutch" type players. I also take your typical science/engineering courses which lead to a very busy mind.
I have narrowed it down to a few things:
WASD hand placement - After thousands of hours of WASD it feels very very very unnatural to have my fingers anywhere else
Cherry MX Black Switches - I love the feel of these when I am playing other games, but for SC2 and typing they just require so much force compared to a typical rubber dome keyboard.
Fatigue - I am not in nearly as good shape as I was when I was 12-13. I am no longer playing sports and eating healthy. The busy/sleep deprived lifestyle of a college student has really taken a toll. Most of the time, by the time I am able to start relaxing by playing SC2 I have normally been busy for 10-12 hours mentally.
I really noticed this fatigue when I was preparing for a lan tournament in November. Playing 6-8 hours a day along with all the other hassles of college really hurts you mentally in your sharpness. I noticed it in my strat calling towards the end of practice and especially in sc2 when I played it.
I really think ergonomics, keyboard, and fatigue are the biggest limiting factors for myself, and I think other people might be having the same issues I have.
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Everyone can get over 200 APM for sure, the problem here is practice. This is the same as typing, everyone can get very good at it, it just requires practice/training.
I have had in some games in sc2 apm over 500, and not exactly spaming, just trying to be everywhere at once and not missing a beat. Peaks are possible even at 800+ in sc2 on faster so the real apm? dunno but dont forget apm is actually calculated at peak points not by real apm but by how fast you press the next 1-2 keys.
I belive anything above 300 is overkill, but practicing with an apm higher that that does set your momentum for a much more agile game.
However this should be only practiced in UMS, as for the first 20 games that apm will totally destroy anyones gameplan unless you are already used to that speed.
Kingdop, its not like that, SC2 is a lot less APM requireing than sc:bw.
In sc bw if my apm nowdays drops under 200 i know im missing things, in sc2, 120 is more than enought.
Its a mental block from playing sc2 the way it is supposed to be played.
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Why are you guys still debating about that? I have already said, that APM has nothing to do with physical ability to click buttons, it is about mental checklist.
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Ok so im a piano player and with spam i can hit 200 avg easily with spamming in a 15-20 min game.
how do i turn it into an effective apm? all the people here say that practice makes perfect. but how to practice this? i can instinctively build workers, train units, build buildings but after the 10 min mark i cant keep an effective apm and when i try to multitask i feel like im juggling too many balls. how i can practice to improve it??
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i try to multitask i feel like im juggling too many balls. how i can practice to improve it??
What a nice comparison, an actual good one for once!
Its the same as juggling.
If you pick up 6 balls, and never juggled before, then its really impossible. If you never juggled before, just with 3 is going to be enough of a challenge. but as you practise, it becomes less and less of a challenge, and instead, more of an automation, based on muscle memory, where you dont actually have to focus on where the balls are, and instead, can even do it with your eyes closed. as you add on extra balls, you are not really actually focusing on new things, you are doing the same things, except faster. The movements stay the same, and once they have been automated, are just faster.
In SC, its going to be the same thing. you wanna drop while macroing. When you wanna drop in 7 places at once, and still macro, you arent doing anything new, that requires extra focus, if you practiced enough that the mechanics of macro and drops have become automatic, you are then still doing the exact same thing, macroing and dropping, but faster. Adding on an extra drop, is the same as adding on an extra ball.
First, you do it with a few, until you are comfortable with that. Then you keep on doing it with a few, until you are no longer just comfortable, but now can do it without actually looking much at the screen, and can instead shift your focus away from these tasks that are nearly automatic. In juggling, that means you can now do it while drunk, or with your eyes closed, or both, and it doesnt matter. In SC, that could mean you can do it while watching TV, and talking to a friend
Once you can do that, you add an extra ball. Drop in one more place, while still doing the rest. No extra focus, just the same thing as before, a bit faster. practice that until its comfortable, then keep practising until its easy, and automatic. And then add on an extra ball.
Thats how you get to juggle with 10 balls. Not by picking up all 10, and trying it out, but by being comfortable with 9, and moving up a step. Same thing with drops.
And hey, when you try to do it too fast, 1 ball can fly off, or not be caught properly, and so on, it wasnt automatic enough, you messed it up, it now needs more attention, and everything falls appart.
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age and physical condition do influence
I actually cant believe July and Leenock play that well being that fat (and I am fat)
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apocalypse, if you want a 400 apm to be effective there is a very easy way: First get a friend to help you.
Assuming it is a SC2, both play terran.
Both make same units and same number of production facilities.
Meet in center to micro.
While you micro make things in your base.
There is no winner here, your goal: high apm+win micro in center.
(micro should ONLY be done by same units, example 12 rine vs 12 rine, 3 mara+1 tank vs 3 mara+1 tank....
I hope you get the idea.
Once you do that correctly, you play more complex games: anything off 1 base.
Once you do that correctly, you play more complex games: anything off 2 base.
then you watch reps, and play no rules at all with your friend.
Now you might be thinking, OMG thats a lot of games!
Its about 30 games per step, far less than you will need if you played normal ladder games.
(IMPORTANT!, in early stages of this training, you MUST always fight same units vs same units)
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I believe that unless your fingers or hands actually hurt while you are trying to achieve high apm then you can make it. I used to play BW at 150 apm when I first started but after learning builds and knowing them by heart I could play at 240-250. No it was not just spam, it was actually useful. In SC2 I don't need that much so I play slower, obviously, I'm happy with 140 to 160. If I need it I step up to acomplish whatever I am trying to do, otherwise 150 is fine for me. Sometimes less if I'm tired or lazy. Pretty much so far I have not lost or felt that I need more handspeed because that caused me to lose.
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On January 13 2011 01:11 iloveav wrote:
apocalypse, if you want a 400 apm to be effective there is a very easy way: First get a friend to help you.
Assuming it is a SC2, both play terran.
Both make same units and same number of production facilities.
Meet in center to micro.
While you micro make things in your base.
There is no winner here, your goal: high apm+win micro in center.
(micro should ONLY be done by same units, example 12 rine vs 12 rine, 3 mara+1 tank vs 3 mara+1 tank....
I hope you get the idea.
Once you do that correctly, you play more complex games: anything off 1 base.
Once you do that correctly, you play more complex games: anything off 2 base.
then you watch reps, and play no rules at all with your friend.
Now you might be thinking, OMG thats a lot of games!
Its about 30 games per step, far less than you will need if you played normal ladder games.
(IMPORTANT!, in early stages of this training, you MUST always fight same units vs same units)
Why would you need to play same units against same units, if anything playing a matchup at a disadvantage would be more helpful in the long run
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On November 30 2010 10:50 Pudge_172 wrote:
I'm almost 44 years old and am a Bronze player. I can hit 250APM when I get an adrenaline rush during a battle or know a big battle is about to take place, but no way can I sustain it. I can't even sustain 100 APM for longer than a minute or two. Most of the time I'm in the 40 APM for a game.
My last game was 33:25 and I ended up at 40APM with Protoss. The highest APM in a game was 58 APM as Zerg.
I do think I could work my way up to 75 APM if I could play 15 games EVERY day. However, I don't have the time to do that consistently. The more I play during a day the higher my APM goes.
Senior Circuit for SC2???
Rofl! Senior league :D
I think all the average Joes can hit 200 apm no problem, and maintain 100 ish apm if you are physically healthy. What I want to know is how the f to maintain that stamina. If I spam more than 250, my hands get tired (anyone else?), and could possibly cramp up after a minute or so. How those pro gamers do it, is a wonder.
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On January 12 2011 19:48 s4m222 wrote:
YES there is a cap.
If you go to a piano, click one key with your right hand.
And spam 2-4 keys with your left. Whatever that gets you lol.
Some people just have much more dexterity in their hand. My friend could spam 500 apm easily. Myself at max spam is like 400. And this is not even trying to do anything, JUST spamming.
Most people like have enough dexterity to play at a pro level, if they practiced. Some people can play at near that APM at least without much trouble
No, this isn't accurate. You aren't practicing this over and over again. Repetitive motions is how your muscles learn to do things quickly. You can't do anything up to full speed and accuracy without constant repetition. You may also find muscle and placement tricks to allow you to move faster.
People aren't virtuoso pianists because they can play fast. It's because of all the nuance-y stuff that pianists do along with playing fast. Playing fast isn't nearly as exceptional.
On January 12 2011 20:37 Foxt wrote:
Why are you guys still debating about that? I have already said, that APM has nothing to do with physical ability to click buttons, it is about mental checklist.
This is a great way to think about it. There is no way you are going to be able to max out the physical ability without being unable to think that quickly. Your thoughts and thinking are very slow. Your cerebellum and muscle memory are extremely fast, assuming you are practicing and are constantly keeping your muscles doing repetitive motion.
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The idea is to get good multi tadking, crap i forgot that :
sure your style and unit prduction will change but this allows you to get high apm first then train how u use it.
It is very important to be able to know WHEN to stop micro and start macro, this will be very easy in sc2 compared to sc1 as you can jsut use hotkeys but still u will need to do pylons/depots.
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Something I think is important is the speed with which you can perform specific tasks. One example is larvae injections techniques: there are many methods discussed on the forums, all with the goal of optimizing the execution of the task. How do you do this?
1. Try to eliminate any superfluous actions from the task.
2. Try to minimize the reliance on mouse accuracy needed. There is something called Fitt's law, where when you move faster with pointing actions, the amount of visual feedback coming back in to help guide your movement is fixed so your accuracy decreases. Ideally, you would eliminate these factors through better hotkey usage. An example would be putting guys on gas at my 3rd/4th base. Instead of catching 3 workers inside my selection box (which requires me to watch more carefully, I roughly select 6+ workers, click on a geyser, deselect 3, click the other geyser, deselect 3 and send the rest back to mining. This requires more actions but can be executed quickly with less attention paid to the screen.
Now once you've figured how to do a specific task, you practice it until it chunks itself into 1 action mentally. I think specific drilling of this can be of benefit, you progressive perform the same sequence starting at a low speed and then speeding it up. The goal is to be able to perform certain specific tasks at 200, 300 400 + apm.
Then, go ahead and do this for all tasks in the game. As you get quicker at many tasks, you'll recognize what is slowing you down the most, so you can work on that next.
The other side of things is recognizing what tasks need to be done and prioritizing them in your checklist. This too can be optimized, though the limits here are cognitive rather than psycho motor in nature.
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I think if more people looked at the APM charts in SC2gears of their own replays their would be a lot more insightful discussions about this.
I am currently in the 80 APM average range. But looking at the APM graph in SC2gears it shows something very insightful about my play. When I am in a macro cycle for terran my 4ss5aadd6s7dd my APM spikes to about 250 because for that time I am pressing the keys very quickly to get my macro completed.
Then when that is finished and I start to think again about what is next in my plan. I have not practiced it enough for it to be automatic my APM falls to 10-15 for a period.
But then I I check my production 4567 boom 250 APM
Uhhhh move army? 10-15 APM
If my plan were better for both building buildings and controlling army, then I will see my effective average APM rise. This is also happening. Not long ago I was 30 APM, then I started to build units without thinking and it jumped to 50, now I am able to place buildings w/o much thought and that got me to 80. Starting to control my army better w/o thinking about it so much will probably push me up another 20-30 APM.
Then look at SC2gears some more, what actions are you slow at, where does your APM drop. Repeating this over and over again will get you to average 200+ effective APM if you are committed to it.
You can't improve if you don't know where you are lacking.
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I just want to insist on the fact some idiots think that all 200 actions are used for individual purposes.
Theyre not, its called spam
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Well, it's true age is a factor to reduce reflexes but really good reflexes come from training and that takes time.
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I DISAGREE! But, I would like to offer my own thoughts at where APM comes from and how I have learned to improve it.
** Just read the spoiler for my thoughts if your to lazy for the story version. **
+ Show Spoiler +-If you do not realize or have not a thought about how/where/when to do more than than you are used to doing already, how are you supposed to get used to playing faster?
-Through the process of being aware of my own faults in-game, I began to become faster, my body and APM, naturally began to rise to meet the my minds challenge.
-Arbitrarily increasing your own APM, more than what you need it for is a complete waste of energy.
A good part of APM imo, 0-100 or so, simply comes from practice, the physical repetition of gaming motions. But, there is a point where the APM constraint of a player becomes less about the blunt practice of the same motions. The limit moves to our head, this limit can change, the trick is to give it a good reason to raise the bar!
-One must become aware where the potholes in their driveway are, in order for the body to respond to the mind, to perceive the need to think and act, finding the proper moment, to avoid them.
I agree that people may have some form of a personal limit. However, I bellieve someones APM limit has far more to do with their mind/perspective/personal-drive/determination-to-improve/awareness-of-game-elements, than the physical constraints of the body. For the body will meet the challenge of the mind with enough practice. Given, we are talking about a healthy individual.
I thought i would never get above 125 APM, a few years ago. After a few year break, I got back into BW a month ago, starting at around 110 APM. I played maybe 20-25 hours in this last month, and my APM has risen to an average of 168-176 APM. Perhaps my age, focus and, determination to learn/improve, are more of a factor than physical constraints ever were.
Example:
Training myself to time my unit production buildings more effectively, focusing particularly on remembering to macro during a battle; greatly increased my APM. Unit production is a quick sequence of actions, thus many actions are recorded in the short time. Effectively improving my APM and macro throughout a game. This never happened because from playing mass games, I had to find the weak links in my macro by watching replays and constantly trying to stretch my abilities in game. Through the process of being aware of my own faults in-game, I began to become faster, my body and APM, naturally began to rise to meet the my minds challenge.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i52.tinypic.com/2nqzamd.jpg)
