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On September 24 2010 10:59 Uhh Negative wrote:
Blizzard needs to fix zerg early game weakness soon so that other imbalances are revealed. Once the early game imbalances are fixed then we can move on to the "real" imbalances in the mid and late game. Who knows, maybe zerg will be the most powerful race late game if they are allowed to get through the early game and into midgame on even footing with the other races.
Normally I would agree with this, The early game has a multiplicative effect on mid and late game. However since it is very obvious Zerg has major issues with maxed armies you should at least keep that in mind while fixing the early game.
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I feel a lot of Zerg's problems stem from the wall-off in both the ZvP and ZvT matchups. Not only does it make it hard to scout but it kills any chance of harrass, except for Mutalisks.
Now against a decent Terran he'll just turret up his base, which to overcome you need a critical mass of Mutas, by the time you have that amount of mutalisks you are so heavily gas invested in them that you MUST do damage to your enemies economy or you will straight up lose. Really, settling for killing off the odd tech-lab or supply depot with the Mutalisks isn't enough.
Let's compare this to a Terran's options. He has Reaper play, which can transition nicely to a strong bio composition. He has Helions, later blue-flame Helion drops. Marauder drops, Banshee harass, all the while producing a highly resource-efficient army. When these harrass opportunities are open for the Terran there is little or no chance of a counter-attack for the Zerg and the Terran gets to scout most of the Zerg's base as an added bonus.
I'm not sure what it is like at God-tier level of play, but I feel the Zerg is on the back-foot most of the game, doing their best to macro-up to hold off various timing pushes later in the game or to attempt to break the Terran wall-in.
Without completely restructuring the game, what numbers could be tweaked to make the Zerg more viable?
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How the tank change is not significant is beyond me really. Every unit except the roach, ultra and infestor will be taking less damage. Sure the amount of critical shots for plenty of units won't change but splash damage will alot. Lings and banelings can take shots much better now which is pretty big.
Also fast reaper openings may still counter hatch first, it definately became easier to expand for zerg.
Idra is just a bit of a whiner in general and though he might be right it won't be enough I still think it will be a substantial change to the matchups for Z.
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There's not much to discuss since everything IdrA said is correct and easily agreeable.
This patch won't change much but it's a start. Now Zerg players don't have to be as tense as before when playing versus Reapers.
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On September 24 2010 18:06 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 17:58 Mooncat wrote:
Idra contradicts himself quite a bit here imho. First he talks about changing what's currently a problem, then he suggests fixing the underlying problems that make terran imbalanced in his opinion instead of just changing single units. Then he goes on about changing stuff that is currently a problem again. He also admits that problems that were a problem a month ago are problems no more today.
So basically what he wants is for the races he considers imbalanced to undergo a change in how they essentially work instead of tweaking units. At the same time though he requests that single units/combos/strategies that are currently a problem should be nerfed although he is fully aware that they might be no problem anymore in a few weeks.
Conclusions:
#1 Give the game a little more time instead of rushing patches. What is a problem today might already be totally figured out in 2 or 3 weeks.
#2 This is exactly where Patch 1.1 went wrong. It changed flavor of the month problems instead of analyzing how the different matchups could go more smoothly and be less static by making small adjustments to the basic problems each of the 3 races has.
#3 With the right approach in mind(#2), and I can't emphasize this enough, give the game TIME and THEN patch. Maybe tomorrow a genius Zerg comes along and revolutionizes the whole Zerg early game.
Imho the problems in ZvT(and ZvP) have little to nothing to do with single units. Zerg is just not very versatile in the early stages of the game which creates a variety of problems. a) You're kinda forced to go for the same safe opening(with some slight variations and map adjustments) again and again and again. This will bore many players. b) That safe opening isn't even 100% safe, but what is 100% in Starcraft? c) You can dominate midgame with mutas, but it's pretty difficult to go for the kill with mutas only or muta/speedling/baneling. That means that every ZvT against an equally skilled opponent basically goes to lategame if you want to win it, which can be very tiresome.
All this makes for a very static/deadlocked matchup.
Early Game: Terran pressures => Terran wins or Zerg defends
Mid Game: Zerg has map control with mutas while massing speedlings and banelings to counter any sort of big terran push. If Terran really screws up, Zerg can finish the game here. If everything plays out "standard" though, the game will transition to lategame.
Late Game: 200 supply mech vs 200 supply Speedling/Baneling/Muta/Ultra. Zerg is probably in a slightly better position to win here than Terran.
Of course not every ZvT goes like that, but that's how the matchup works in general and this has to be fixed somehow imho. But again, "fixing" single units is totally the wrong approach as far as I'm concerned.
Shut the... up please. You're saying something like "give it a couple of months don't rush patches" to someone who makes a living playing this crappy crappy game. How about i tell you "give it a couple of months before you can earn some actual money from doing your job". Or, give it a couple of months before you can win a tournament as zerg and find a decent team to sponsor you. Moreover, early game cannot EVER be f-ing revolutionized. Mid-game, Late-game yes but Early-Game is like an exact science.
You serious? If you're just playing as a job and for the monies, then the obvious move is to play the strongest race until it's fixed.
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by eliminating 1 big threat (the reaper) will make everything else weaker aswell. id wait a month before i make a decision about tvz early game balance.
personally i feel that tvz had many strong allins, but reaper was the only one that wasnt a coinflip win, it was just a straight up win.
i think the tank nerf is gonna make a bigger change in tvp than tvz, however i still like the nerf in general
i agreed with all blizzards changes except the bc nerf
this patch will give high level zergs a greater chanse to win but i dont think they eliminated the issue of losing on a coinflip, the feeling of knowing u cant play safe. saccing an overlord doesnt necasarily scout what u need and then rly all u did was lose an overlord, and this is the best way of scouting zerg has
i think buffing spine crawlers once again against armored units will be a nice change because i feel that this would help vs alot of bs terran can do. in sc1 zerg could protect with massling and/or sunkens(spine crawlers) before mutas arrived, maybe we should create same idea with sc2. defend timing attacks such as 2rax marauder reactor hellion with spines instead of pure units, after all thats what static defense should be good at but right now i fear units that are defending more than spines
the only thing i disagree with is the degree he says it wont change alot, i think its gonna change quite a bit. i believe changing minor things can turn everything around in a rts game
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On September 24 2010 18:56 decemberTV wrote:
They dont have labour laws in your country ? Just stop it. Work with no pay is slavery. This is the only "job" in the world where you are not protected in anyway and then along comes blizzard that works in geological time to f. it all up even more.
You realise that in sports it's pretty standard to work for nothing unless you're massively successful and lucky enough to find sponsorship or win major tournaments? Are Olympic athletes slaves too?
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On September 24 2010 19:16 waxypants wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 18:06 decemberTV wrote:On September 24 2010 17:58 Mooncat wrote:
Idra contradicts himself quite a bit here imho. First he talks about changing what's currently a problem, then he suggests fixing the underlying problems that make terran imbalanced in his opinion instead of just changing single units. Then he goes on about changing stuff that is currently a problem again. He also admits that problems that were a problem a month ago are problems no more today.
So basically what he wants is for the races he considers imbalanced to undergo a change in how they essentially work instead of tweaking units. At the same time though he requests that single units/combos/strategies that are currently a problem should be nerfed although he is fully aware that they might be no problem anymore in a few weeks.
Conclusions:
#1 Give the game a little more time instead of rushing patches. What is a problem today might already be totally figured out in 2 or 3 weeks.
#2 This is exactly where Patch 1.1 went wrong. It changed flavor of the month problems instead of analyzing how the different matchups could go more smoothly and be less static by making small adjustments to the basic problems each of the 3 races has.
#3 With the right approach in mind(#2), and I can't emphasize this enough, give the game TIME and THEN patch. Maybe tomorrow a genius Zerg comes along and revolutionizes the whole Zerg early game.
Imho the problems in ZvT(and ZvP) have little to nothing to do with single units. Zerg is just not very versatile in the early stages of the game which creates a variety of problems. a) You're kinda forced to go for the same safe opening(with some slight variations and map adjustments) again and again and again. This will bore many players. b) That safe opening isn't even 100% safe, but what is 100% in Starcraft? c) You can dominate midgame with mutas, but it's pretty difficult to go for the kill with mutas only or muta/speedling/baneling. That means that every ZvT against an equally skilled opponent basically goes to lategame if you want to win it, which can be very tiresome.
All this makes for a very static/deadlocked matchup.
Early Game: Terran pressures => Terran wins or Zerg defends
Mid Game: Zerg has map control with mutas while massing speedlings and banelings to counter any sort of big terran push. If Terran really screws up, Zerg can finish the game here. If everything plays out "standard" though, the game will transition to lategame.
Late Game: 200 supply mech vs 200 supply Speedling/Baneling/Muta/Ultra. Zerg is probably in a slightly better position to win here than Terran.
Of course not every ZvT goes like that, but that's how the matchup works in general and this has to be fixed somehow imho. But again, "fixing" single units is totally the wrong approach as far as I'm concerned.
Shut the... up please. You're saying something like "give it a couple of months don't rush patches" to someone who makes a living playing this crappy crappy game. How about i tell you "give it a couple of months before you can earn some actual money from doing your job". Or, give it a couple of months before you can win a tournament as zerg and find a decent team to sponsor you. Moreover, early game cannot EVER be f-ing revolutionized. Mid-game, Late-game yes but Early-Game is like an exact science. You serious? If you're just playing as a job and for the monies, then the obvious move is to play the strongest race until it's fixed.
So did you see the thread about Fruitseller and Check switching to Terran ? Did you read the one about Dimaga wanting to switch to terran ? Did you see DarkForce playing Terran right after the patch was released ?
Switching races isnt done over the weekend. You'd need at least 1000 games with one race before you can say you're not playing that race the way you're supposed to.
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Tell me a place and I'll put my signature under it.
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When i play zerg i find it really tough compared to playing Terran, while i offrace and fought against players in my league i can win as a terran eventhough i played less than 30 terran games, i am a top 200 in sea, i really dont get it. making infestors is going for a high risk investment , they die so easily and it is better to focus on ling/muta in a ZvT instead of going infestor, i have tried mix and match many times but the best is just mass muta ling/blings we have no other choice and we have to react to the enemy, the start of the game terran has already gain advantage of
1) scouting
2) Game control
Hydras are just the weaker and more expensive version of Marines and Terran has free dropship which allow hatchery to be destroyed and backdoored, command centers can be repaired and scv are constantly producing SCVc while Zerg has to balance the econ vs units.
It is in theory that zerg can switch tech faster than terran but it is just not Viable in reality.
I also find it really funny that Terran keep saying zerg is QQing. If a zerg player plays a terran the same way, muta would have no chance as it is easily counterd by really cheap cost of turrets and marines with stims can still have map control with double dropships in play. Hellions are also a great way to force zerg to reduce drones and up crawlers. with decent micro and without creep-grounds, MMM can really stim away banes as there is lag time in Move-Attack-Move MMMs. Thors are really too strong with SCV repairing . all these are overpowered abuse that most good terrans are not even abusing it. especially SCV repairing while zerg has squeeezed every single strategy to think and counter.
Not only this, in late game with upgrades, Zerg has to rely on Muta and blings to hold off the MMMs but as time passess when MMs get 3-3 Upgrades, zerg upgrades cannot catch up as zerglings 3-3 will not be viable against MMs 3-3, it is not hard to get 3-3 and when they do its practically GG. This is an upgrade advantage for terran.
Every single factor including the map that is imbalance now(too small/Hills) is favouring terran.
There are so many maps that terran can abuse yet they dont have to and win the game, what if they did? what if they scv repair every game? its the best abuse ever. Terran players are just not up to par in micro and macro compare to a zerg which in the same league/rank.
I find playing terran is really easy and if i really switch my race i would be 2x better off. i really like zerg, its a shame. im thinking of switching. Thanks for listening.
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On September 24 2010 19:19 MorroW wrote:
by eliminating 1 big threat (the reaper) will make everything else weaker aswell. id wait a month before i make a decision about tvz early game balance.
personally i feel that tvz had many strong allins, but reaper was the only one that wasnt a coinflip win, it was just a straight up win.
i think the tank nerf is gonna make a bigger change in tvp than tvz, however i still like the nerf in general
i agreed with all blizzards changes except the bc nerf
this patch will give high level zergs a greater chanse to win but i dont think they eliminated the issue of losing on a coinflip, the feeling of knowing u cant play safe. saccing an overlord doesnt necasarily scout what u need and then rly all u did was lose an overlord, and this is the best way of scouting zerg has
i think buffing spine crawlers once again against armored units will be a nice change because i feel that this would help vs alot of bs terran can do
yeah zerg needs a better mean of scouting early and i agree a spine crawler buff against armored would help a lot too
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In response to buffing spine crawlers vs. armored: Don't spine crawlers become largely irrelevant anyway once Marauders have stim?
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On September 24 2010 19:19 MorroW wrote:
i think buffing spine crawlers once again against armored units will be a nice change because i feel that this would help vs alot of bs terran can do. in sc1 zerg could protect with massling and/or sunkens(spine crawlers) before mutas arrived, maybe we should create same idea with sc2. defend timing attacks such as 2rax marauder reactor hellion with spines instead of pure units, after all thats what static defense should be good at but right now i fear units that are defending more than spines
the only thing i disagree with is the degree he says it wont change alot, i think its gonna change quite a bit. i believe changing minor things can turn everything around in a rts game
This, and alot of other big problems could be changed by making all buildings non armored.
This way spinecrawlers would be ALOT more viable. Also the ridicilous strong Marauder drops would stop, stimmed marauders are already crazy good in army fights, no need to make them be able to kill buildings faster then anything else in the game.
Buildings could get a "building" modifier instead of the armored, and Immortals, reapers and siegetanks could still be doing that extra damage to "building".
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On September 24 2010 18:56 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 18:50 Mooncat wrote:On September 24 2010 18:06 decemberTV wrote:
Shut the... up please.
You're saying something like "give it a couple of months don't rush patches" to someone who makes a living playing this crappy crappy game. How about i tell you "give it a couple of months before you can earn some actual money from doing your job".
Or, give it a couple of months before you can win a tournament as zerg and find a decent team to sponsor you.
Moreover, early game cannot EVER be f-ing revolutionized. Mid-game, Late-game yes but Early-Game is like an exact science. Uhm... you will probably be surprised, but that's exactly the way it works in the real world most of the times... You work your ass off for little to nothing before the money starts coming in. Especially when you decide to do a "job" like this. There's always the risk that you won't make it at all, and you know that before you do it. Fucking the game up by rushing patches isn't helping anyone though... They dont have labour laws in your country ? Just stop it. Work with no pay is slavery. This is the only "job" in the world where you are not protected in anyway and then along comes blizzard that works in geological time to f. it all up even more.
Seems to be a nice world you're living in... everybody's paid, nobody's poor, everyone's protected and safe... sadly, it has nothing to do with the real world.
Just take the model business as an example. How many girls invest thousands of dollars in big tits and go to New York, just to share an apartment with 15 Russian girls who are younger & more beautiful than themselves? One of those girls is going to get jobs as a model, the other 15 fail hard, become prostitutes or go back to their home country to live in poverty. Just one of the million examples of jobs where you take the risk of earning nothing first to earn big later.
And I guess you've also never heard of voluntary service, have you? You have no idea how many people work at a company for months for free, just to get the chance to get a job there.
But hey, never mind. Have fun in your candy land! 
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On September 24 2010 19:21 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 19:16 waxypants wrote:On September 24 2010 18:06 decemberTV wrote:On September 24 2010 17:58 Mooncat wrote:
Idra contradicts himself quite a bit here imho. First he talks about changing what's currently a problem, then he suggests fixing the underlying problems that make terran imbalanced in his opinion instead of just changing single units. Then he goes on about changing stuff that is currently a problem again. He also admits that problems that were a problem a month ago are problems no more today.
So basically what he wants is for the races he considers imbalanced to undergo a change in how they essentially work instead of tweaking units. At the same time though he requests that single units/combos/strategies that are currently a problem should be nerfed although he is fully aware that they might be no problem anymore in a few weeks.
Conclusions:
#1 Give the game a little more time instead of rushing patches. What is a problem today might already be totally figured out in 2 or 3 weeks.
#2 This is exactly where Patch 1.1 went wrong. It changed flavor of the month problems instead of analyzing how the different matchups could go more smoothly and be less static by making small adjustments to the basic problems each of the 3 races has.
#3 With the right approach in mind(#2), and I can't emphasize this enough, give the game TIME and THEN patch. Maybe tomorrow a genius Zerg comes along and revolutionizes the whole Zerg early game.
Imho the problems in ZvT(and ZvP) have little to nothing to do with single units. Zerg is just not very versatile in the early stages of the game which creates a variety of problems. a) You're kinda forced to go for the same safe opening(with some slight variations and map adjustments) again and again and again. This will bore many players. b) That safe opening isn't even 100% safe, but what is 100% in Starcraft? c) You can dominate midgame with mutas, but it's pretty difficult to go for the kill with mutas only or muta/speedling/baneling. That means that every ZvT against an equally skilled opponent basically goes to lategame if you want to win it, which can be very tiresome.
All this makes for a very static/deadlocked matchup.
Early Game: Terran pressures => Terran wins or Zerg defends
Mid Game: Zerg has map control with mutas while massing speedlings and banelings to counter any sort of big terran push. If Terran really screws up, Zerg can finish the game here. If everything plays out "standard" though, the game will transition to lategame.
Late Game: 200 supply mech vs 200 supply Speedling/Baneling/Muta/Ultra. Zerg is probably in a slightly better position to win here than Terran.
Of course not every ZvT goes like that, but that's how the matchup works in general and this has to be fixed somehow imho. But again, "fixing" single units is totally the wrong approach as far as I'm concerned.
Shut the... up please. You're saying something like "give it a couple of months don't rush patches" to someone who makes a living playing this crappy crappy game. How about i tell you "give it a couple of months before you can earn some actual money from doing your job". Or, give it a couple of months before you can win a tournament as zerg and find a decent team to sponsor you. Moreover, early game cannot EVER be f-ing revolutionized. Mid-game, Late-game yes but Early-Game is like an exact science. You serious? If you're just playing as a job and for the monies, then the obvious move is to play the strongest race until it's fixed. So did you see the thread about Fruitseller and Check switching to Terran ? Did you read the one about Dimaga wanting to switch to terran ? Did you see DarkForce playing Terran right after the patch was released ? Switching races isnt done over the weekend. You'd need at least 1000 games with one race before you can say you're not playing that race the way you're supposed to.
The point was that you don't have sit around for months waiting for Blizzard, they should have switched a while ago to the obvious strongest race until it get fixed since it's obvious Blizzard is going to take its sweet time.
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Even as a silver league terran scrub, I think IdrA is dead right. The reaper nerf barely changes the 5-rax openings, and the tank nerf means next to nothing against lings and blings, since they're still one-shotted by the direct tank attack; roaches and ultralisks still take the exact same damage; and hydralisks still suck off-creep so they won't be used much. And the terran player is usually going to have a group of tanks set up to take out a mass of those units anyway, so even though the outer splash damage is insufficient to 1-shot lings, the chances are that it won't matter because the 5 or 6 tanks sat behind the bioball or thors will make mincemeat of the zerg ground army.
I think the tank nerf mostly affects TvP, where zealots, sentries, high templars, and DTs will no longer be one-shotted by the main siege attack.
Zerg needs help with early game defence. I don't even think it will take a huge change to bring that about, but it needs to be something that gives zerg either better scouting (so that they can react more quickly to what's coming) or a more all-purpose unit that they can use flexibly to fend off whatever is thrown at them. Perhaps even just making queens a little faster off-creep would turn them into a viable all-purpose early defensive unit, because their damage and health are pretty damn good. You'd have to get the balance right to prevent people wanting to just mass queens and attack with them (though this is already offset to a large degree by the fact that you can't make them from larva), but it's one choice if we're looking for a small tweak to make a big difference in the early game.
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On September 24 2010 10:28 MegaBUD wrote:
Come on guys... Idra isnt god... he gonna qq like every other zerg player because they didnt receive buff...
User was warned for this post
User was temp banned for this post.
IdrA is a StarCraft veteran and is most worth hearing out on what his thoughts on this matter is because he knows what hes talking about 
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I absolutely agree with what IdrA said, but I do think the -5 DMG nerf on the Ultras has a larger impact on the Zerg-lategame, especially against Toss, where Ultras are basically the only Unit worth going T3 for and before T3, Zerg isn't that strong against Toss either...
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Can anyone please tell me why Idra says protoss are stronger PvT late game now than prepatch? Tank nerf? BC nerf?? Maybe i missed something....
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I have never been so mad losing a game where i should win, with zerg i am about to throw my mouse, seriously.
When i was playing warcraft 3 with night elf, i never felt like this, because every win is a win and every lost is a deserved but playing zerg is, i am better than my opp yet i lost because of some crap load of imbalance.
Every zerg will feel the same frustration as what i am feeling. Throwing mouse. and keyboard.
=/
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EPT
