EPTNow seriously, i like to hear opinion of professionals, any of them. It always shows how things really are, even if one say the same as the crowd, you hear a different direction of it.
IdrA Speaks On: Patch 1.1 - Page 15
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shinarit
Hungary900 Posts
Now seriously, i like to hear opinion of professionals, any of them. It always shows how things really are, even if one say the same as the crowd, you hear a different direction of it. | ||
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ch4ppi
Germany802 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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trevf
United States237 Posts
On September 24 2010 21:48 IdrA wrote: thats not what i said at all, reaper bunker rush and mass reaper were still really really strong. are still quite strong. i meant this patch would have been sufficient a month ago, not that the changes are unnecessary now. So you do propose nerfing every development in the meta game? "oh look terran are winning with a clever viking / hellion play, that needs to be nerfed" "oh look terrans are winning with ghost rush that needs to be nerfed" it seems like you want to nerf every way the terrans have to win? | ||
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kojinshugi
Estonia2559 Posts
On September 24 2010 21:48 IdrA wrote: thats not what i said at all, reaper bunker rush and mass reaper were still really really strong. are still quite strong. i meant this patch would have been sufficient a month ago, not that the changes are unnecessary now. Okay, sorry for the misinterpretation. I know they're still strong, but they're not really IWIN buttons either. So basically you're advocating a faster reaction time to patch and deal with seeming imbalances like that? How fast? Biweekly? And what's an imbalance in this context, something that consistently forces one base openings? | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On September 24 2010 17:27 IdrA wrote: probably up overlord base speed reasonably, make neural parasite either 50 mana + an upgrade or 75 mana and no upgrade, and it needs to last longer. or if you want zerg to be more swarm-y buff hydras and roaches, hydras off creep speed up and probably hp up, and roachs 4 range or 2 armor, maybe faster burrow speed, and switch hydra/roach on the tech tree. also the ability to block a ramp with 2 pylons and 2 bunkers needs to be addressed, im not sure if they can make unbuildable areas that would prevent it but still allow normal building walls but that would work. these probably seem like really big changes but people actually massively underestimate just how bad the balance is. i honestly doubt the changes i suggested would be enough. Hmm... Glad to see you agree on the overlord base speed and the NP change. The NP change is pretty much required to fight thors since no unit is actually cost effective vs them pre-hive. You make a damn good point about the ramp block with pylons/bunkers. It's more of a stupid nuisance than anything, forcing you to pull an early drone, but it's still imbalanced. I don't think changing hydras and roaches that dramatically would be good for ZvP though. P gateway units don't really fare terribly well vs hydra/roach balls which is why you absolutely must have storm or colossi to help cut through them. Buffs to hydra/roach might tip the scales on early game (although 4 gate is still broken on some maps like xelnaga). It's really hard to say what would happen, but it'd definitely shift things. The faster burrow speed is another thing I posted on earlier in this thread, so that's 3 things we apparently agree on. What do you think about my suggestion with nerfing missile turrets vs light armor though? I know it won't do anything to TvT or TvP since turrets don't deal with banshees (except en masse and as detection) and voidrays very well anyways. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On September 24 2010 21:39 kojinshugi wrote: Magic box took far longer in beta than the game has been retail. Thor's didn't own clumped mutas like they do now all the way through beta | ||
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0mar
United States567 Posts
On September 24 2010 20:43 kojinshugi wrote: You can't just state things like that expect to be taken seriously. The game has been out less than two months. How many months of beta did it take for these godlike Zerg players to realize magic boxed mutas rape thors? It's not really rape. Rape would be marauders vs stalkers or marauders vs roach. Thor vs muta is still heavily biased for the Thor, even with the magic box, but now you can actually kill a few thors. Mutas aren't going to kill equal-cost thors. | ||
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SubtleArt
2710 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:25 Rice wrote: that was when roach was 1 food and had insane regen at t3 He was still saying it after that, as recently as Day9's KoTB tourney | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 24 2010 19:23 DTH12 wrote: yeah zerg needs a better mean of scouting early and i agree a spine crawler buff against armored would help a lot too Even better than the Overlord? Hmmm ... I cant see any other race having such a cheap and potentially permanent scout that early. | ||
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necmon
194 Posts
On September 24 2010 21:48 IdrA wrote: thats not what i said at all, reaper bunker rush and mass reaper were still really really strong. are still quite strong. i meant this patch would have been sufficient a month ago, not that the changes are unnecessary now. OK, I misinterpreted you then  . I agree with your view that imbalances are only found after extensive periods of playing when people try to invent new tactics (or cheeses). Now you seem to expect from Blizzard that they react faster and I think it's a valid point. I also wondered why they announced a patch with all the details (change X for Y percent), then released it a month later. Made no sense to me, but they had probably quite a good reason for this, like not wanting to affect league play or something? I can only guess, but to me it would make sense to not bring out a patch for a game during a season of something.Please note that this is different for SC2 in comparison to BW because you cannot play LAN with a specific patch you are choosing (not being able to play in LAN is a major problem in itself, in my opinion). From a pro stand point it would also suck to change patches in between rounds of a league/tournament, or not? | ||
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Grond
599 Posts
On September 24 2010 21:39 kojinshugi wrote: Magic box took far longer in beta than the game has been retail. My point was not "someone will discover some gimmick and all will change". My point was that it took months for people to discover a gimmick, and to assume every strategy has already been thought of is ridiculous. You could attempt balance the game on the fly to ensure the current strategies of some section of the playerbase always result in equal representation or win rates. I think that would break the game something fierce, and it would devalue actual strategy. As Idra himself said in the linked article, a month ago the reaper/bunker nerf would have helped. And now he thinks it's pointless, because players already deal with it. So what should they have changed instead? And what's to say those changes wouldn't have come in late as well, once players already learned to deal with it? Flawed reasoning. If somebody discovers a gimmick that is really strong Blizzard will remove it not to mention there is a 67% chance that the gimmick or new strategy will be in Terran's or Protoss favor. I think its far more likely that any new really strong strategies will be Terran because their abilites and synergy are just better. | ||
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necmon
194 Posts
There is a 100% chance that a gimmick will be discovered. There is a 33% chance that your race discovers the gimmick. There is a 67% chance that your race will not discover the gimmick. So, your 67% is true for every race ;-) | ||
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We Are Here
Australia1810 Posts
On September 24 2010 22:26 necmon wrote: nah i dont think its evenly distributed, since terran has the most openings, they got the most chance of discovering it. eg. terran has 50% chance of discovering it, then protoss and zerg 30 and 20 respectively. i think masterasia was saying something like this, eventually terran will become the strongest because they got so much potential, but i might have misinterpreted xD I laughed at the 67%. There is a 100% chance that a gimmick will be discovered. There is a 33% chance that your race discovers the gimmick. There is a 67% chance that your race will not discover the gimmick. So, your 67% is true for every race ;-) | ||
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ltortoise
633 Posts
On September 24 2010 20:48 IdrA wrote: not really. zealot rushes were still ridiculously strong before the patch, the cannon rushes were just an additional threat early game. now, given the patch, its down to only cannon rushes and perhap proxy gates. do it slow is acceptable for some things, but when its blatantly obvious that small changes will not be enough theres no reason to take it slow. Hey IdrA, I'm a little confused by what you mean here. When you say you don't think Blizzard should take it slow, do you mean they should release more patches, quicker? Or do you mean the patches they do release should have more significant changes? Because if you mean the former, Blizzard seems to be proving to us that they can't release a patch without significant bugs even when they have the exact changelist far in advance (frigging splashlisk). Do you not think it's possible for a single patch with significant changes to completely flip the balance in the other direction? Also, you mentioned changing the range of roaches to 4. This seems reasonable to me and would make early roach pressure a lot stronger. It would, however, completely negate reapers in the matchup. Do you feel reapers have a long term place in this game besides being a token scouting unit? Have you ever had any ideas involving reapers that would make them fit into the game in a more reasonable fashion? It always seems like they are either useless or game-breaking. No middle ground. Hope you can answer at least some of these! Thanks IdrA | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
I also strongly feel that roach speed should be obtainable in T1. If you are committing to roaches you should be able to get this really necessary upgrade before going lair. | ||
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Skarra
39 Posts
I know it's difficult to fathom, but this isn't BW. | ||
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We Are Here
Australia1810 Posts
On September 24 2010 22:46 Skarra wrote: exactly, T didnt have like a million viable openings and zerg didnt have 3 openings in bwI know it's difficult to fathom, but this isn't BW. | ||
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BondGamer
61 Posts
It is obvious to anyone playing this game that Zerg is substantially weaker than the other races. Blizzard even acknowledged this, explaining the specific changes they were going to make. Yet it was weeks before a patch. I guess that philosophy was tossed out the window. | ||
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
On September 24 2010 21:52 trevf wrote: So you do propose nerfing every development in the meta game? "oh look terran are winning with a clever viking / hellion play, that needs to be nerfed" "oh look terrans are winning with ghost rush that needs to be nerfed" it seems like you want to nerf every way the terrans have to win? every overpowered way. don't be a dick. you know that. | ||
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