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I am not saying that Zerg vs Terran is fine at the moment but crying for faster changes in ZvT and then later on admitting this:
(direct quote)
"The zealot's build and warpin times were also increased 5 seconds, and this could have a far more significant impact on the game. At the time the patch changes were decided zealot rushes were the only popular way for protoss to pressure zerg, and as such nerfing zealots should give zerg the time they need to establish a decent footing early game. However, since then protosses have perfected several new types of cannon rushes that serve almost as well to prevent fast expansions. Given that zealots are no longer a big threat early its possible that zerg can find a way to deal with the threat of cannon rush which would allow them to transition into the midgame in much better shape than was possible before the patch. This, though quite likely not large enough, was a reasonable change by Blizzard as it is difficult to tell how large an impact early game changes will have."
sounds suspicious to me. He basically says that a lot of players completely overreacted to zealots because they didn't see the strategy against them yet. However, they managed to invent one. Why shouldn't this be the case with other things?
Idra gives a prime example how to justify the "do it slow" approach of Blizzard in that paragraph.
I say: Keep doing small changes until the game is fine (judged by the pros, not the general forum poster)
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Because zerg player has squeezed every single strategy out of zerg while terran players have not, and still winning games.
dont you get it? bronze player?
He is saying that there is a trend in play and zealots nerf is expired. now people just use cannon to stop FE.
Terran potential is so wide and huge that even the pros are not utilizing it while zerg play is so advanced that the limitations has stopped zerg evolving. Jesus christ, when will people like (blizzard and you) get it?
If you are a non zerg player i understand you will not feel the frustration.. but please .
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On September 24 2010 19:06 Markwerf wrote:
How the tank change is not significant is beyond me really. Every unit except the roach, ultra and infestor will be taking less damage. Sure the amount of critical shots for plenty of units won't change but splash damage will alot. Lings and banelings can take shots much better now which is pretty big.
Also fast reaper openings may still counter hatch first, it definately became easier to expand for zerg.
Idra is just a bit of a whiner in general and though he might be right it won't be enough I still think it will be a substantial change to the matchups for Z.
agree, baneling bust is more viable later on in the game (tank protected ramp)
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On September 24 2010 19:55 FatHuntresS wrote:
Terran potential is so wide and huge that even the pros are not utilizing it while zerg play is so advanced that the limitations has stopped zerg evolving.
You can't just state things like that expect to be taken seriously.
The game has been out less than two months. How many months of beta did it take for these godlike Zerg players to realize magic boxed mutas rape thors?
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On September 24 2010 19:51 necmon wrote:
I am not saying that Zerg vs Terran is fine at the moment but crying for faster changes in ZvT and then later on admitting this:
(direct quote)
"The zealot's build and warpin times were also increased 5 seconds, and this could have a far more significant impact on the game. At the time the patch changes were decided zealot rushes were the only popular way for protoss to pressure zerg, and as such nerfing zealots should give zerg the time they need to establish a decent footing early game. However, since then protosses have perfected several new types of cannon rushes that serve almost as well to prevent fast expansions. Given that zealots are no longer a big threat early its possible that zerg can find a way to deal with the threat of cannon rush which would allow them to transition into the midgame in much better shape than was possible before the patch. This, though quite likely not large enough, was a reasonable change by Blizzard as it is difficult to tell how large an impact early game changes will have."
sounds suspicious to me. He basically says that a lot of players completely overreacted to zealots because they didn't see the strategy against them yet. However, they managed to invent one. Why shouldn't this be the case with other things?
Idra gives a prime example how to justify the "do it slow" approach of Blizzard in that paragraph.
I say: Keep doing small changes until the game is fine (judged by the pros, not the general forum poster)
no he doesnt. it just means blizzard sucks at making balance changes and isnt on top of their own game.
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On September 24 2010 20:43 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 19:55 FatHuntresS wrote:
Terran potential is so wide and huge that even the pros are not utilizing it while zerg play is so advanced that the limitations has stopped zerg evolving. You can't just state things like that expect to be taken seriously. The game has been out less than two months. How many months of beta did it take for these godlike Zerg players to realize magic boxed mutas rape thors?
what u want them to discover roach magic box now?
ROFL
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On September 24 2010 19:51 necmon wrote:
I am not saying that Zerg vs Terran is fine at the moment but crying for faster changes in ZvT and then later on admitting this:
(direct quote)
"The zealot's build and warpin times were also increased 5 seconds, and this could have a far more significant impact on the game. At the time the patch changes were decided zealot rushes were the only popular way for protoss to pressure zerg, and as such nerfing zealots should give zerg the time they need to establish a decent footing early game. However, since then protosses have perfected several new types of cannon rushes that serve almost as well to prevent fast expansions. Given that zealots are no longer a big threat early its possible that zerg can find a way to deal with the threat of cannon rush which would allow them to transition into the midgame in much better shape than was possible before the patch. This, though quite likely not large enough, was a reasonable change by Blizzard as it is difficult to tell how large an impact early game changes will have."
sounds suspicious to me. He basically says that a lot of players completely overreacted to zealots because they didn't see the strategy against them yet. However, they managed to invent one. Why shouldn't this be the case with other things?
Idra gives a prime example how to justify the "do it slow" approach of Blizzard in that paragraph.
I say: Keep doing small changes until the game is fine (judged by the pros, not the general forum poster)
not really. zealot rushes were still ridiculously strong before the patch, the cannon rushes were just an additional threat early game. now, given the patch, its down to only cannon rushes and perhap proxy gates.
do it slow is acceptable for some things, but when its blatantly obvious that small changes will not be enough theres no reason to take it slow.
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Idra seems to be advocating a "spam minor patches every other tuesday" approach.
Whereas Blizzard's approach is "let's see if players learn to counter things and make small incremental changes if they don't counter certain things well enough".
I really don't understand that complaints about scouting. Can someone please explain why you can't float in an ovie every few minutes? Because it dies?
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On September 24 2010 20:47 FatHuntresS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 20:43 kojinshugi wrote:On September 24 2010 19:55 FatHuntresS wrote:
Terran potential is so wide and huge that even the pros are not utilizing it while zerg play is so advanced that the limitations has stopped zerg evolving. You can't just state things like that expect to be taken seriously. The game has been out less than two months. How many months of beta did it take for these godlike Zerg players to realize magic boxed mutas rape thors? what u want them to discover roach magic box now? ROFL
No, I'm saying they played for months thinking small numbers of thors hard countered mutas. Small paradigm shifts like the magic box (whether it's a micro trick like that or a strategy or a build) can change the entire game. Claiming zerg strategy is fully evolved at such an early point is ridiculous.
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Can you stop asking noob questions?
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On September 24 2010 20:55 kojinshugi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 20:47 FatHuntresS wrote:On September 24 2010 20:43 kojinshugi wrote:On September 24 2010 19:55 FatHuntresS wrote:
Terran potential is so wide and huge that even the pros are not utilizing it while zerg play is so advanced that the limitations has stopped zerg evolving. You can't just state things like that expect to be taken seriously. The game has been out less than two months. How many months of beta did it take for these godlike Zerg players to realize magic boxed mutas rape thors? what u want them to discover roach magic box now? ROFL No, I'm saying they played for months thinking small numbers of thors hard countered mutas. Small paradigm shifts like the magic box (whether it's a micro trick like that or a strategy or a build) can change the entire game. Claiming zerg strategy is fully evolved at such an early point is ridiculous.
Claiming terran strategy is fully evolved is equally ridiculous
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On September 24 2010 21:04 schiznak wrote:
Claiming terran strategy is fully evolved is equally ridiculous
No one ever claimed that. The whole idea here is that the game is too new to be making sweeping balance changes left and right.
Maybe the argument can be made that zerg is fundamentally ill suited for early game for some reason, but then make that argument and back it up with evidence and possible solutions. Arguing against Blizzard's decision to not be too trigger happy with balance changes is fruitless, because it's a really good decision. A game that's constantly going through radical changes before the player base can adjust to the new rules is a game that won't last, especially not competitively.
This thread is about Idra's comments on 1.1, but, like half the threads on TL, has devolved into a zerg whinefest where people make ridiculous statements like "top zerg players have reached the skill cap".
Also, fathuntress, stop picking fights and being a rude jackass.
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1. lower dmg of marauders with 3 + change concussive shells speed decrease to 25% instead of 50%
2. increase range of roaches by 3
3. increase health of hydras by 150% and increase their speed of creep with 25%
4. decrease the helians speed by 10%
5. let banelings walk through enemies
some minor changes that will help the balance a little bit
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sorry you are the one having no idea what you're talking about. The game isnt that new anymore.
Pro gamers come from different background, sc wc3 .. they catch up really fast and judging by the current situation you really do have no idea what you're talking about.
I guess we let idra discover the next big thing , maybe mass infestors.. or wait no.. fast tech ultra wait no dimaga tried that.. magic box roach TT.. burrow unburrow.. fast droppping overlords no wiat SEN did that.. what else.. think think think.. larvae rush.
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@kojinshugi :
While I do agree that the game obviously will evolve more and people will more or less figure out a way to compensate, the problem is that they have to compensate in the first place. It is a fact that a Zerg player has to outmicro and outthink his T opponent like crazy to win the game, and that alone is "broken" imo, as races SHOULD ideally be balanced when people play at the "exact" same level.
I'm not saying all T's suck and there are some really good plays from a few T's, but still, usually in a TvP/TvZ matchup, how many times did you go "oh wow" due to some micro or tactical move by the Terran ? It does happen occasionnally, but really not that often. And I'm not saying that the players aren't capable of it, I'm just saying it's just not the most viable option for them. Usually TvZ/TvP is all about the timing push which, if timed correctly, leaves the opponent with no chance or barely.
Another thing : even if the Z or P manages to harass the shit out of the T, one thing that is insanely unfair in my opinion : mules. How many times have I seen a T lose almost all his SCVs, yet the opponent is just not rewarded for his play simply because T drops a few mules and his economy is barely lagging a bit behind. Of course he still has to rebuild an economy etc and it does damage, but compared to the damage done in the same situation to a P or Z, it is laughable. And that's one thing that disturbs me, that T's have the best defence in the game BUT even if you manage to break it, it won't be THAT big a deal in a way. Not to mention it usually triggers a counterpush which with the units composition and err.. lets say balance, does not leave you a chance unless you 1) outmicro 2) outposition and 3) have the exact unit composition to - not counter but - stand a chance.
All in all, it's just so much work and EVEN THEN, it's not a guaranteed win. And as Cool was saying, that's just considering the T is worse than you, if he's got about as good micro and strategic thinking, there's really not many options left. Oh well, I'm hoping to see some serious balance changes 
My 2c for ideas would be (since someone posted ideas above) :
1. lower marauder dmg indeed and reduce concussive shells as mentioned above
2. make creep an advantage and not a hinder (as in, without creep you're "normal" but with it it's better, right now not having creep leaves you hindered in many ways in the mid/late game and it's rather easy for a T/P to just kill off creep tumors which every decent player will do)
3. related to above, change hydras to either lesser dps but tier 1.5 to have a better midgame viable option, OR make them quite faster off creep
4. make drop a research for medivacs
5. increase roach range a little to make them better vs hellions in the early game - they're supposed to be a good defense vs hellions but the T can still toy with you on and off creep rather easily, there's simply no good early game defense for Z.
I don't know, it's frustrating even having to think of all that, I wish we could just play and enjoy the game and all that eh.
I do feel like Zerg overall is just incomplete as in, missing units. Is it just me ?
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On September 24 2010 21:20 FatHuntresS wrote:
sorry you are the one having no idea what you're talking about. The game isnt that new anymore.
Pro gamers come from different background, sc wc3 .. they catch up really fast and judging by the current situation you really do have no idea what you're talking about.
Magic box took far longer in beta than the game has been retail.
I guess we let idra discover the next big thing , maybe mass infestors.. or wait no.. fast tech ultra wait no dimaga tried that.. magic box roach TT.. burrow unburrow.. fast droppping overlords no wiat SEN did that.. what else.. think think think.. larvae rush.
My point was not "someone will discover some gimmick and all will change". My point was that it took months for people to discover a gimmick, and to assume every strategy has already been thought of is ridiculous.
You could attempt balance the game on the fly to ensure the current strategies of some section of the playerbase always result in equal representation or win rates.
I think that would break the game something fierce, and it would devalue actual strategy.
As Idra himself said in the linked article, a month ago the reaper/bunker nerf would have helped. And now he thinks it's pointless, because players already deal with it.
So what should they have changed instead? And what's to say those changes wouldn't have come in late as well, once players already learned to deal with it?
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On September 24 2010 21:19 guldurkhand wrote:
1. lower dmg of marauders with 3 + change concussive shells speed decrease to 25% instead of 50%
2. increase range of roaches by 3
3. increase health of hydras by 150% and increase their speed of creep with 25%
4. decrease the helians speed by 10%
5. let banelings walk through enemies
some minor changes that will help the balance a little bit
The only one of those changes that would be minor is the Hellion change. The rest are absolutely huge.
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Some of these proposed changes are getting absolutely absurd... IdrA's included. Why don't we all just wait a bit and see how things play out?
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On September 24 2010 21:39 kojinshugi wrote:
As Idra himself said in the linked article, a month ago the reaper/bunker nerf would have helped. And now he thinks it's pointless, because players already deal with it.
thats not what i said at all, reaper bunker rush and mass reaper were still really really strong. are still quite strong. i meant this patch would have been sufficient a month ago, not that the changes are unnecessary now.
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On September 24 2010 21:38 ket- wrote:
1. lower marauder dmg indeed and reduce concussive shells as mentioned above
Since when are marauders an issue? Counter with immortals or mutas.
2. make creep an advantage and not a hinder (as in, without creep you're "normal" but with it it's better, right now not having creep leaves you hindered in many ways in the mid/late game and it's rather easy for a T/P to just kill off creep tumors which every decent player will do)
That's not a meaningful statement. Being off creep is not a "hinder" because you decide to call it that. I can just as easily say off creep is "normal" and on creep is "bonus".
3. related to above, change hydras to either lesser dps but tier 1.5 to have a better midgame viable option, OR make them quite faster off creep
Hydras could maybe stand to be less squishy.
4. make drop a research for medivacs
That's absurd. Medivacs require rax/fact/starport. Ovie drops require lair/research, and they don't even take up food.
I don't know, it's frustrating even having to think of all that, I wish we could just play and enjoy the game and all that eh.
I don't understand why you play zerg if it's such a painful experience for you. Just switch to toss or something.
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EPT
