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On September 24 2010 14:40 jere wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:25 cykalu wrote:On September 24 2010 14:20 jere wrote:On September 24 2010 13:13 The Icon wrote:
really? QQ'ing that it's hard to defend a hatch before pool? NO SHIT. Yes! There is one rule to live by if you are Terran, punish the greedy Zerg. If the Zerg goes hatch before pool that is 300 minerals not spent on army. If the Zerg goes for fast Lair into Spire or Infestation Pit attack before it is done. I understand there is a scouting issue for Zerg in that it is really hard vs Terran can do it at any time with scans. But I have wondered why Zerg dont use like one in three larva for army units early game. A just in time army would seems like a plan for losing. As Terran I am making army units all the time along with scvs even if it is just marines. Zerg has to decide whether to use the Larve for drones or units.. not both, unlike Terran. Terran can sit in his base and not move out, if a Zerg reacts inappropriately to it, they will be behind in economy as they could have used the larva for drones instead. So Zerg cant split up usage of larve? The four larve that come off from a queen have to go to drones or army cant be mixed like two for drones and two for army or any other combination? And Zerg cant sit in base?
Or try making an inbase hatch, its only the cost of 2 barracks/gateways and you can make every unit out of it. If a terran/toss wants to transition from say mauraders/stalkers to banshees/void rays they have to throw down like 3-4 unit producing structures. Zerg just has to throw down 1 tech piece and they can produce that unit from any larva.
My point is, it seems like there's ways to get that extra larva to keep up in the macro early game besides taking your natural. If a Terran tries to go CC before Barracks at their natural vs Zerg how long do you think that will stay up? So intead they make unit producing structures in their main which is easier to protect. I've never understood why so few Zergs try the same thing. Then expand out to their natural when they can protect it like the other 2 races do as well.
I'm not saying there aren't things to be fixed with the Zerg race, just don't bitch about fast expanding being difficult to defend. Any time you expand before units it's going to be hard to defend, that's a choice you made.
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Compared to Protoss and Terran T1, the zerg units are very specialized. If you dont scout perfectly youre screwed. Zerg cant keep up economy-wise with only one base, thus an expansion is almost necessary. Fast expanding makes zerg even more vulnerable to early attacks that must be scouted and reacted to. This seems to be the early game zerg problem.
Heres my idea: Give the zerg better early game economy! Make hatcheries start with more larvae, or increase the hathery larvae spawn frequency. This makes it so that zerg can have better early game economy and can be more aggressive. Zergs early game units will still be less economical to use vs their protoss and terran counterparts.
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spawn larvae should be automatic make no sense for us to be doing same thing allways its not like weve many places to spawn larvae binding a queen to a hatch would be nice theres not much strategy on it ....
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On September 24 2010 17:54 GizmoPT wrote:
spawn larvae should be automatic make no sense for us to be doing same thing allways its not like weve many places to spawn larvae binding a queen to a hatch would be nice theres not much strategy on it ....
Are you serious? That's an awful idea.
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Idra contradicts himself quite a bit here imho. First he talks about changing what's currently a problem, then he suggests fixing the underlying problems that make terran imbalanced in his opinion instead of just changing single units. Then he goes on about changing stuff that is currently a problem again. He also admits that problems that were a problem a month ago are problems no more today.
So basically what he wants is for the races he considers imbalanced to undergo a change in how they essentially work instead of tweaking units. At the same time though he requests that single units/combos/strategies that are currently a problem should be nerfed although he is fully aware that they might be no problem anymore in a few weeks.
Conclusions:
#1 Give the game a little more time instead of rushing patches. What is a problem today might already be totally figured out in 2 or 3 weeks.
#2 This is exactly where Patch 1.1 went wrong. It changed flavor of the month problems instead of analyzing how the different matchups could go more smoothly and be less static by making small adjustments to the basic problems each of the 3 races has.
#3 With the right approach in mind(#2), and I can't emphasize this enough, give the game TIME and THEN patch. Maybe tomorrow a genius Zerg comes along and revolutionizes the whole Zerg early game.
Imho the problems in ZvT(and ZvP) have little to nothing to do with single units. Zerg is just not very versatile in the early stages of the game which creates a variety of problems. a) You're kinda forced to go for the same safe opening(with some slight variations and map adjustments) again and again and again. This will bore many players. b) That safe opening isn't even 100% safe, but what is 100% in Starcraft? c) You can dominate midgame with mutas, but it's pretty difficult to go for the kill with mutas only or muta/speedling/baneling. That means that every ZvT against an equally skilled opponent basically goes to lategame if you want to win it, which can be very tiresome.
All this makes for a very static/deadlocked matchup.
Early Game: Terran pressures => Terran wins or Zerg defends
Mid Game: Zerg has map control with mutas while massing speedlings and banelings to counter any sort of big terran push. If Terran really screws up, Zerg can finish the game here. If everything plays out "standard" though, the game will transition to lategame.
Late Game: 200 supply mech vs 200 supply Speedling/Baneling/Muta/Ultra. Zerg is probably in a slightly better position to win here than Terran.
Of course not every ZvT goes like that, but that's how the matchup works in general and this has to be fixed somehow imho. But again, "fixing" single units is totally the wrong approach as far as I'm concerned.
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Give overseer Plague effect on contaminate, Change corruptors spell to spawn scourge, make T1 unit zeglisk 50 min 1 supply 6 range low hp and low dps, When u get hydra den you can merge 2 zerglisk into 1 hydralisk at the cost of the gas for hydralisk.
I think it will be good to make neural parasite a bit longer and remove the rope like thing. Just cast it and no matter if infestor die the NP should not go away.
I also think zerg need defensive spell, back in BW zerg had swarm, in SC terran has point defense drone and auto turret, toss has force field and guardian shield.now zerg realy lack defensive abilities, Infested Terran may be considered such but its realy not working that way.
Maybe give queen ability to spawn something on creep that give +1 armor to surrounding units and buildings then later upgraded to +2 or +3 from evo chamber.Realy T has so much extra upgrades for everything, building armor,bunker supply, turret range.
Waiting for HoTS is not a solution by the time it get realeased SC2 will be already shame for the professional scene, too many pros are considering switching race. Blizzard realy should get back to drawing board and be creative, hire some professional players like to make intesive testing on the new things to get proper feedback. We all see that it was mistake to realease the game with 1 race complete and other in progress then trying to balance it with nerfs and buffs. I realy like the terran becouse it realy feel they are completed, they have soo many options and so great mechanics so much diversity. I wish zerg and protoss was the same.
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On September 24 2010 17:15 zomgtossrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 14:56 lambnrice wrote:
There is no worse feeling that funneling your hydras into a constant stream of seige tank fire. They're way too slow and fragile to even consider against tanks. That nerf does not effect hydras in any major way. thats why you don't funnel units for any battle in any matchup on any map...ever. That should have been an obvious one.
Funny because sending them in as a ball just exposes them to a lot more splash.
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On September 24 2010 17:58 Mooncat wrote:
Idra contradicts himself quite a bit here imho. First he talks about changing what's currently a problem, then he suggests fixing the underlying problems that make terran imbalanced in his opinion instead of just changing single units. Then he goes on about changing stuff that is currently a problem again. He also admits that problems that were a problem a month ago are problems no more today.
So basically what he wants is for the races he considers imbalanced to undergo a change in how they essentially work instead of tweaking units. At the same time though he requests that single units/combos/strategies that are currently a problem should be nerfed although he is fully aware that they might be no problem anymore in a few weeks.
Conclusions:
#1 Give the game a little more time instead of rushing patches. What is a problem today might already be totally figured out in 2 or 3 weeks.
#2 This is exactly where Patch 1.1 went wrong. It changed flavor of the month problems instead of analyzing how the different matchups could go more smoothly and be less static by making small adjustments to the basic problems each of the 3 races has.
#3 With the right approach in mind(#2), and I can't emphasize this enough, give the game TIME and THEN patch. Maybe tomorrow a genius Zerg comes along and revolutionizes the whole Zerg early game.
Imho the problems in ZvT(and ZvP) have little to nothing to do with single units. Zerg is just not very versatile in the early stages of the game which creates a variety of problems. a) You're kinda forced to go for the same safe opening(with some slight variations and map adjustments) again and again and again. This will bore many players. b) That safe opening isn't even 100% safe, but what is 100% in Starcraft? c) You can dominate midgame with mutas, but it's pretty difficult to go for the kill with mutas only or muta/speedling/baneling. That means that every ZvT against an equally skilled opponent basically goes to lategame if you want to win it, which can be very tiresome.
All this makes for a very static/deadlocked matchup.
Early Game: Terran pressures => Terran wins or Zerg defends
Mid Game: Zerg has map control with mutas while massing speedlings and banelings to counter any sort of big terran push. If Terran really screws up, Zerg can finish the game here. If everything plays out "standard" though, the game will transition to lategame.
Late Game: 200 supply mech vs 200 supply Speedling/Baneling/Muta/Ultra. Zerg is probably in a slightly better position to win here than Terran.
Of course not every ZvT goes like that, but that's how the matchup works in general and this has to be fixed somehow imho. But again, "fixing" single units is totally the wrong approach as far as I'm concerned.
Shut the... up please.
You're saying something like "give it a couple of months don't rush patches" to someone who makes a living playing this crappy crappy game. How about i tell you "give it a couple of months before you can earn some actual money from doing your job".
Or, give it a couple of months before you can win a tournament as zerg and find a decent team to sponsor you.
Moreover, early game cannot EVER be f-ing revolutionized. Mid-game, Late-game yes but Early-Game is like an exact science.
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I litterally stared at the screen for a good 15 seconds with my mouth open when I saw the 'state of the game' patches WERE the whole 1.1 patches. Un-friggin-believeable. I'm sooo waiting for a reply from blizzard, how can they miss this? At the moment, we can very well say zerg is underpowered in a game breaking way, blizzard does, apart from +5 sec to zealot build time, NOTHING about it.
IdrA, you hit the nail on the head perfectly on this one.
Go group up with zenio, cool, check and julyzerg and go raid blizz HQ ^.^
I'd LOVE to see something like hydra to tier1, increase hatch larvae spawn rate and removes queens.. I know that would kind of force you hydra's every game but something along those lines. Larva inject is not fun to do and the queen is a very very dull unit
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Only if people spent the time figuring out the game instead of whining about it
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I for once fully gree with Idra. I was actually quite disappointed that the patch really included only the more or less minor changes mentioned in the pre-patch report.
I am not fully sure why Blizzard did it this way. Possible explanations:
* They don't want to make too drastic changes in the current GSL (best time to majorly patch would be in-between 2 GSLs)
* They want their internal tester team to play long enough with the suggested changes in order to be sure to go into the right direction (the current patch and the ultra bug suggests otherwise though...)
* They have some magical statistics which show different results regarding balance
* They think that Zerg players just haven't figured out the matchup...
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All this makes for a very static/deadlocked matchup.
Early Game: Terran pressures => Terran wins or Zerg defends
Mid Game: Zerg has map control with mutas while massing speedlings and banelings to counter any sort of big terran push. If Terran really screws up, Zerg can finish the game here. If everything plays out "standard" though, the game will transition to lategame.
Late Game: 200 supply mech vs 200 supply Speedling/Baneling/Muta/Ultra. Zerg is probably in a slightly better position to win here than Terran.
I concur with this.
Everytime i fuck up my early game or zerg defend
I lose.
Regardless of what i do
Zerg goes Mutas, i have to build like 3-4 missile turrets, even then the problem isn't solved when mutas still kill my turrets.
Late Game, its just GG really.
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On September 24 2010 17:58 Mooncat wrote:
All this makes for a very static/deadlocked matchup.
Early Game: Terran pressures => Terran wins or Zerg defends
Mid Game: Zerg has map control with mutas while massing speedlings and banelings to counter any sort of big terran push. If Terran really screws up, Zerg can finish the game here. If everything plays out "standard" though, the game will transition to lategame.
Late Game: 200 supply mech vs 200 supply Speedling/Baneling/Muta/Ultra. Zerg is probably in a slightly better position to win here than Terran.
Wow...very interesting. You literally described exactly what happened my last game. He pressured with reapers, i defended, he dropped hellions (3 or 4 times), lost a handful of drones, but still managed to defend, and i kept pumping units til 200/200 however instead of ultras i just had critical mass mutas to deal with heavy numbers of thors. caught him out of position in the middle with a fungal and just swarmed lings blings and then mutas came in for the cleanup. he the blamed his pc for going slow (i guess my swarm rush caused his computer to freeze up lol)
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On September 24 2010 10:26 Colbi wrote:Greg ' IdrA' Fields gives his thoughts on Blizzard's most recent patch for StarCraft 2. Below is an excerpt taken from the article: Show nested quote +The first balance patch for StarCraft2 came out roughly a month after release and consisted solely of changes that were announced weeks ago and that were actually already prepared at the start of phase 2 of the beta. Unfortunately, this is evident in the effect the changes will have on the game. Blizzard patched the state the game was in several weeks ago, and didn't address many developments in game play that have since made the patch almost irrelevant. ZvT and ZvP will remain largely unchanged while the balance issues in TvP will only be made worse, terran will now be even stronger early and protoss even stronger late in the game. You can read the rest of his thoughts at http://www.myeg.net/article/article_detail.php?article_id=877Do you agree or disagree with what he has to say?
Idra might be the only player in Korea who thinks TvP is imba in Terran's favor. Disregard
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On September 24 2010 11:13 Anzat wrote:
We're the only race with zero anti-air as part of our core T1 army... and our supply flies.
So what do you call a queen?
At least we got the best stationary defense in the game, which detect, hit both air and ground, and don't cost us a worker... oh, wait. Protoss got that.
Your "stationary" defenses can be relocated at will. And really, if you're complaining that making a structure consumes a drone, then you really shouldn't be playing Zerg in the first place.
Speedlings get to finally use their wings for a weak anti-air attack, perhaps some leaping melee thing
Why do you play Zerg if you want to fundamentally change the race?
There needs to be a way to micro to make void rays lose their charge
There is. Select queens or hydras, and a-move towards the void ray.
and toss need to be forced to use some micro to maintain their charge. Right now the "shoot a building and then kill the whole opposing army in 5 seconds" thing isn't balanced.
It's also not existent. It takes far longer than 5 seconds to kill your entire army, and it takes a whole boatload of voidrays. If you know there's void rays out, don't let them get to those buildings in the first place. If you don't know there's a bunch of void rays out, then learn to scout.
It's like if I started complaining about spine crawlers being impossible to kill without having like a dozen hellions. Tier 2 units killed by one static defense that only cost 125 minerals! Ours only shoots air! Nerf!
And the idea that Zerg can't scout is just weird. You have incredibly fast, cheap land units that take half a supply. You have flying pylons and the lowest tech, fastest to build, cheapest flying detector that doesn't take up supply, but provides it.
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On September 24 2010 18:16 Samus wrote:
All this makes for a very static/deadlocked matchup.
Early Game: Terran pressures => Terran wins or Zerg defends
Mid Game: Zerg has map control with mutas while massing speedlings and banelings to counter any sort of big terran push. If Terran really screws up, Zerg can finish the game here. If everything plays out "standard" though, the game will transition to lategame.
Late Game: 200 supply mech vs 200 supply Speedling/Baneling/Muta/Ultra. Zerg is probably in a slightly better position to win here than Terran.
I concur with this.
Everytime i fuck up my early game or zerg defend
I lose.
Regardless of what i do
Zerg goes Mutas, i have to build like 3-4 missile turrets, even then the problem isn't solved when mutas still kill my turrets.
Late Game, its just GG really.
Thors. More turrets. Tanks. Hellions. Actually MACRO instead of trying to 1 or 2 base. Exploit Terran's MANY forms of harrassment VS zerg (cloaked banshees, hellion drops, reapers, kill overlords with vikings, etc...) An unpressured Zerg is a deadly Zerg.
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On September 24 2010 18:21 PanzerDragoon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:26 Colbi wrote:Greg ' IdrA' Fields gives his thoughts on Blizzard's most recent patch for StarCraft 2. Below is an excerpt taken from the article: The first balance patch for StarCraft2 came out roughly a month after release and consisted solely of changes that were announced weeks ago and that were actually already prepared at the start of phase 2 of the beta. Unfortunately, this is evident in the effect the changes will have on the game. Blizzard patched the state the game was in several weeks ago, and didn't address many developments in game play that have since made the patch almost irrelevant. ZvT and ZvP will remain largely unchanged while the balance issues in TvP will only be made worse, terran will now be even stronger early and protoss even stronger late in the game. You can read the rest of his thoughts at http://www.myeg.net/article/article_detail.php?article_id=877Do you agree or disagree with what he has to say? Idra might be the only player in Korea who thinks TvP is imba in Terran's favor. Disregard
i said terrans strong early and protoss is strong late, i think if theres any overall advantage pre patch 1.1 it went to protoss. please read before replying.
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On September 24 2010 18:06 decemberTV wrote:
Shut the... up please.
You're saying something like "give it a couple of months don't rush patches" to someone who makes a living playing this crappy crappy game. How about i tell you "give it a couple of months before you can earn some actual money from doing your job".
Or, give it a couple of months before you can win a tournament as zerg and find a decent team to sponsor you.
Moreover, early game cannot EVER be f-ing revolutionized. Mid-game, Late-game yes but Early-Game is like an exact science.
Uhm... you will probably be surprised, but that's exactly the way it works in the real world most of the times... You work your ass off for little to nothing before the money starts coming in. Especially when you decide to do a "job" like this. There's always the risk that you won't make it at all, and you know that before you do it. Fucking the game up by rushing patches isn't helping anyone though...
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IdrA is the freakin man... at least some1 high level is stickin up for Z sayin they need more help, thank God.
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On September 24 2010 18:50 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 18:06 decemberTV wrote:
Shut the... up please.
You're saying something like "give it a couple of months don't rush patches" to someone who makes a living playing this crappy crappy game. How about i tell you "give it a couple of months before you can earn some actual money from doing your job".
Or, give it a couple of months before you can win a tournament as zerg and find a decent team to sponsor you.
Moreover, early game cannot EVER be f-ing revolutionized. Mid-game, Late-game yes but Early-Game is like an exact science. Uhm... you will probably be surprised, but that's exactly the way it works in the real world most of the times... You work your ass off for little to nothing before the money starts coming in. Especially when you decide to do a "job" like this. There's always the risk that you won't make it at all, and you know that before you do it. Fucking the game up by rushing patches isn't helping anyone though...
They dont have labour laws in your country ? Just stop it. Work with no pay is slavery. This is the only "job" in the world where you are not protected in anyway and then along comes blizzard that works in geological time to f. it all up even more.
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EPT
