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Since there are so many complaints about imbalences I thought about making a Test Map where minor balance changes could be tested by Pro Zerg, Terran and Protoss Players.
Im new with the Map Editor so I don't really know if everything could be realised but maybe someone who can handle that Tool can do it for the community.
I tested to slightly speed up Hydralisk and remove StimPack from Marauders but this Editor is so confusing to me. Different things that could help Zerg and Protoss could be Cooldown on Mules, slightly reduce the rooting Time from Spine Crawlers and reduce some research Timings (Hive, Overlord speed and drop) and reduce the gas cost for mutas just a little bit. If someone could actually do that on for example Lost Temple that would be great. We maybe get some cool facts about what is too much and what could be good for the Matchups.
Its just an Idea but maybe with the help of some Pros Blizzard sees some things that could help balancing and get the next patch out faster.
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On September 24 2010 22:53 We Are Here wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 22:46 Skarra wrote:On September 24 2010 11:25 Roe wrote:On September 24 2010 10:28 neobowman wrote:
Absolutely agree from a Zerg player's perspective.
The reaper nerf is nice but that's not what's troublesome. If you know it's coming, it's not too hard to deal with. The problem is not being able to scout. how did Z scout in BW? I know it's difficult to fathom, but this isn't BW. exactly, T didnt have like a million viable openings and zerg didnt have 3 openings in bw
Actually T had a ton of different 1 base pushes, but they were all easily identifiable.
The answer to 90% of them was add more sunkens.
The others were often mech pushes and those obviously proved to not be much of a concern. 2 port wraith was so weak that you could not scout it and still recover and win, unlike banshees where 1 banshee = 12 wraiths of ground damage or something.
The problem is that every T opening requires a specific hard counter and it's very difficult to account for everything in 1 build, so zergs often just have to flip a coin and hope they don't get hit by what they're weak against. It also makes opening with a single strategy every game very difficult if not nearly impossible. 2 hatch muta pretty much always worked in BW. I can't say that for any zerg strat in sc2.
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On September 24 2010 22:53 We Are Here wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 22:46 Skarra wrote:On September 24 2010 11:25 Roe wrote:On September 24 2010 10:28 neobowman wrote:
Absolutely agree from a Zerg player's perspective.
The reaper nerf is nice but that's not what's troublesome. If you know it's coming, it's not too hard to deal with. The problem is not being able to scout. how did Z scout in BW? I know it's difficult to fathom, but this isn't BW. exactly, T didnt have like a million viable openings and zerg didnt have 3 openings in bw
you're right, they had two.
2 hatch muta, or 3 hatch muta? that is the question
lol
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Oh I remember earlier, everyone was like "Oh Why the fuck does Zerg get the Changeling, They already have the best scouting possibilty ingame"
I ain't saying that changeling is anything near the answere (coz they suck lol) but I always woundered why people kept saying zerg is best scoutin...
Coz without sacrifize overlord there is Zero scout to neiter hag nor evil
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On September 24 2010 23:00 Floophead_III wrote:
The problem is that every T opening requires a specific hard counter and it's very difficult to account for everything in 1 build, so zergs often just have to flip a coin and hope they don't get hit by what they're weak against. It also makes opening with a single strategy every game very difficult if not nearly impossible. 2 hatch muta pretty much always worked in BW. I can't say that for any zerg strat in sc2.
That's very much true. In BW Z could build creep colonies before hand and have sunkens up in time if they saw a terran moving out with a timing attack. In SC2 spines take about 35 sec in real time to build, but the ramp to opposing natural rush time in many maps is 25 seconds or less with a marine or a marauder. Spines could use 5 sec off their build time (they already take 10 sec longer than a cannon and twice as long as a turret) and the map pool should be reviewed. LT and Metalo close spots are actually just as close as Steppes positions. If Z has a chance against ground pushes if scouted as they leave the T base, it just leaves reapers, drops and air to deal with.
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On September 24 2010 22:53 We Are Here wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 22:46 Skarra wrote:On September 24 2010 11:25 Roe wrote:On September 24 2010 10:28 neobowman wrote:
Absolutely agree from a Zerg player's perspective.
The reaper nerf is nice but that's not what's troublesome. If you know it's coming, it's not too hard to deal with. The problem is not being able to scout. how did Z scout in BW? I know it's difficult to fathom, but this isn't BW. exactly, T didnt have like a million viable openings and zerg didnt have 3 openings in bw
T did have million viable openings .. before muta stack
Z have only 2 truely viable openings - 2 hatch or 3 hatch (day9)
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imo this patch wasn't "bad" just not enough was done in the amount of time it took to realease it TT
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On September 24 2010 23:35 oN_Silva wrote:
Oh I remember earlier, everyone was like "Oh Why the fuck does Zerg get the Changeling, They already have the best scouting possibilty ingame"
I ain't saying that changeling is anything near the answere (coz they suck lol) but I always woundered why people kept saying zerg is best scoutin...
Coz without sacrifize overlord there is Zero scout to neiter hag nor evil
Zerg has the best mid game scouting if you are including persistent scouting. They have the 2nd best early scouting as well having it better than Protoss does. What they have is the weakest in base scouting and that is something the changeling does help wiht a little bit.
All of the scouting complaints are really complaints about how hard it is for Zerg to get counters out for different strats. Protoss can counter every early build with just gateway units, Zerg can pick the wrong path to go down and lose if they can't scout in base early enough.
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I'm confused. As far as I know T or P did not receive any buffs while they took nerfs so how is it that lategame ZVP and ZVT is even worse now? @.@
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You misread PTZ, it's TVP early/lategame that got messed up.
Also, is there really anything terribly game breaking about moving the changeling to the overlord (Post spawning pool requirement?)
You'd probably get to just sac a changeling unit to scout, but the opponent can counter it with good base management (or hunting overlords).
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On September 24 2010 23:50 PTZ. wrote:
I'm confused. As far as I know T or P did not receive any buffs while they took nerfs so how is it that lategame ZVP and ZVT is even worse now? @.@
well Terran buildings finish a touch faster, but other than that Ultra damage vs armored got nerf, to make way for damage vs buildings (which once this 'bug' is fixed, is completely useless)
Mainly TvP got changed in the patch, and early game ZvP
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I think 3 fairly straightforward buffs would more or less fix Zerg, and they don't require anything crazily drastic like "bring back lurkers or scourges" or something.
1.) Buff creep tumors. Zerg is utterly reliant on creep, which at the moment limits their aggressiveness, and can even make defending a base against harassment in the early game too difficult because units like reapers and hellions can just dance on and off the creep.
Typically, everyone suggests that the answer to this is to buff off-creep speed, especially for units like Hyrdas, Roaches or Queens.
But what if instead, they simply made creep tumors more powerful? What if one creep tumor spread as much creep as 2 tumors currently do, and at the same rate? This would solve a number of problems:
Defending a base vs. harassment--it would be trivially easy to get down enough creep early on to make dancing on and off creep all but impossible. Queens could easily get around the entire base, Roaches wouldn't be left in the dust without their speed upgrade, and Zerglings could get a surround much more easily.
Using Hydralisks aggressively - Hydras' speed is fine on creep. The issue is that getting creep when and where you want it to be aggressive is currently very difficult. If creep was much easier to spread, it would be significantly easier to use Hydras as offensive units. To a lesser extent, Queens could also be used offensively--but without enablign the early game mass Queen rushes that were broken in beta.
Staying a base ahead - Zerg are constantly adding bases, and currently when they do, there is a much longer window where defending that base is difficult until they've built a creep highway. This would help with that.
2.) Buff Overlord speed - Overlords are slow as hell, and even after the speed upgrade are still slower than medivacs. This makes them ineffective, both as scouts, and as dropships. If Overlords were faster--say, as fast unupgraded as they currently are with the speed upgrade, and faster than medivacs if they did get the upgrade--it would vastly improve both scouting and mobility. Early game scouting wouldn't necessarily requiring sacrificing an Overlord, as they would be fast enough to get in and get out before being shot down by a single marine. And late game scouting, while it would likely require sacricicing an Overlord, at least that Overlord would be fast enough to get deep into the base to see valuable information.
Zerg is reactive race. Thats fine, except they need the ability to get that information in order to react. Buffing Overlord speed would fix that.
3.) Take the time limit off NP. As it currently stands, its useless, which sucks because its the ideal counter to some units which are currently way too difficult to counter with early and mid game tech, i.e. Thors and Colossi. Unlimited NP would give Zerg an effective counter, and force Terran and Toss players to actually micro those units, work to defend them, and try to bring down the infestor before an NP turns their heavy units against their own army.
3 seemingly minor buffs. None of them would change the way Zerg fundamentally plays. None of them involve adding new units or abilities. None of them, really, even involves a straight power buff like "make Roaches tougher" or anything. They are subtle tweaks.
Yet I believe if they were instituted, it could absolutely alter the way Zerg plays, and make them far better in all stages of the game.
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I think more patching is needed, but atleast its a step in the right direction. I just switched over to zerg yesterday, to try it out, and its fun but really hard (as are all races) I have played alot of random in beta early release as well, so playing different races keeps me from going bored, and there is ofcource the benefit of not getting mirror matchups anymore, since there are few zergs out there these days it seems.
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I don't see how blizzard can fix the zerg at high level, without make it overpowered in lower levels.
When you play in low leagues, terran players don't ever do helions harras, or go destroying your expands with 2 medivacs. So il will be hard time for them if zerg get meaningly buffed.
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On September 24 2010 11:25 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:28 neobowman wrote:
Absolutely agree from a Zerg player's perspective.
The reaper nerf is nice but that's not what's troublesome. If you know it's coming, it's not too hard to deal with. The problem is not being able to scout. how did Z scout in BW?
It's either bio or mech...maybe the occasional 2 port wraith. It's not like the 8+ different openings that SC2 Terran can do...
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I have to agree with what IdrA wrote. It's well thought out.
The problem with playing against Terran, as Zerg is simply there are so many openings a Terran can utilize, and they are all extremely effective. In addition, they all have different counters so you run into the problem of just not knowing exactly what you're up against. Suiciding overlords is a possible answer, however 1. You shouldn't 'have' to and 2. a lot of the builds can look very similar, or transition easily into something else entirely. It's also very easy for them to hide tech anywhere they please.
So in closing, I believe it is a problem of options. Terran has a multitude, and zerg (while in the opening game) has a very limited amount, of things that they can do. This is why it is, the way it is. Multiple attack/build options against only a few. It's not rocket science.
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Idra makes sense there, but he may have oversimplified his analysis on the tank nerf.
Several things he didn't touch....
-overlapping splash from multiple siege tanks may be significantly nerfed and have a marked effect in small to mid sized battles
patch 1.1 tank splash:
35 / 18 / 9
1.0 tank splash:
50/ 25 / 13
Example 1: in 1.0 a zergling would die if hit from a 2nd and 3rd radii splash, but in 1.1 the zergling will survive with 8hp left.
Example 2: in 1.0 a hydralisk would die after taking four 2nd radii hits, but in 1.1 it survives with 18 hp.
Example 3: in 1.0 a hydra dies from a radii 1, radii 2, and radii 3 hit (50+25+13 = 88). In 1.1 the hydra will live with 18 health (35+18+9 = 62).
Example 4: Banelings in 1.1 can survive a radii 2 and 3 combo with 3 health remaining. They survive being hit by three radii 3 hits with 3 health remaining as well.
-the effect of this change on smart firing may also be pretty significant. As you know tanks do not waste shots. Because of the reduced splash, there will more often be a higher number of zerglings injured rather than killed after a salvo of tank fire. These injured, more separated (nearby lings dieing make these injured lings less bunched up than a pack of healthy lings) zerglings will draw some tank shots in 1.1 that otherwise would have targeted a farther away group of healthy lings in patch 1.0. I believe smart firing will target a few nearby isolated zerglings in favor of densely packed zerglings that are farther away.
-the increased value of zerg carapace upgrades (especially for +1 carapace zerglings vs +0 atk tanks)
-infested terran now take 2 shots instead of 1 vs tanks, and can be spawned in a "spread" formation (avoiding splash) quite easily, making this rather important. I understand that energy is almost always better spent on fungal growth, but after doing some tests where 8 spread out infested terran easily take out 3 sieged tanks (without even placing the ITs in the tanks "minimum" range) this may be important. Of course MM annhilate infested terran so this may have low viability in most games.
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The problem with the patch is that it doesnt fix any of the fundemental problems zerg have with terran. Sure it'll slow down the 5rax reaper a little bit and bunker rush but these are just cheese if anything. The problem is that since BW, terran has gotten every buff possible and then some while zerg has had shit taken away and nerfed.
The units just arent balanced.
They need to buff zerg not increase build time on two units.
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On September 25 2010 00:08 LeCastor wrote:
I don't see how blizzard can fix the zerg at high level, without make it overpowered in lower levels.
When you play in low leagues, terran players don't ever do helions harras, or go destroying your expands with 2 medivacs. So il will be hard time for them if zerg get meaningly buffed.
hate to say it but game balance can only truly be tested and defined at the highest levels of play.. it sucks for lower level players, but they just need to deal with it and improve their game..
high level play should not be sacrificed to help out the bronze/silver league players..
and you forget yes lower level terrans don't helion or dropship harass... but lower level zergs are not nearly as good at macro and expanding so it tends to even out anyway..
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I think 3 fairly straightforward buffs would more or less fix Zerg, and they don't require anything crazily drastic like "bring back lurkers or scourges" or something.
1.) Buff creep tumors. Zerg is utterly reliant on creep, which at the moment limits their aggressiveness, and can even make defending a base against harassment in the early game too difficult because units like reapers and hellions can just dance on and off the creep.
Typically, everyone suggests that the answer to this is to buff off-creep speed, especially for units like Hyrdas, Roaches or Queens.
But what if instead, they simply made creep tumors more powerful? What if one creep tumor spread as much creep as 2 tumors currently do, and at the same rate? This would solve a number of problems:
Defending a base vs. harassment--it would be trivially easy to get down enough creep early on to make dancing on and off creep all but impossible. Queens could easily get around the entire base, Roaches wouldn't be left in the dust without their speed upgrade, and Zerglings could get a surround much more easily.
Using Hydralisks aggressively - Hydras' speed is fine on creep. The issue is that getting creep when and where you want it to be aggressive is currently very difficult. If creep was much easier to spread, it would be significantly easier to use Hydras as offensive units. To a lesser extent, Queens could also be used offensively--but without enablign the early game mass Queen rushes that were broken in beta.
Staying a base ahead - Zerg are constantly adding bases, and currently when they do, there is a much longer window where defending that base is difficult until they've built a creep highway. This would help with that.
2.) Buff Overlord speed - Overlords are slow as hell, and even after the speed upgrade are still slower than medivacs. This makes them ineffective, both as scouts, and as dropships. If Overlords were faster--say, as fast unupgraded as they currently are with the speed upgrade, and faster than medivacs if they did get the upgrade--it would vastly improve both scouting and mobility. Early game scouting wouldn't necessarily requiring sacrificing an Overlord, as they would be fast enough to get in and get out before being shot down by a single marine. And late game scouting, while it would likely require sacricicing an Overlord, at least that Overlord would be fast enough to get deep into the base to see valuable information.
Zerg is reactive race. Thats fine, except they need the ability to get that information in order to react. Buffing Overlord speed would fix that.
3.) Take the time limit off NP. As it currently stands, its useless, which sucks because its the ideal counter to some units which are currently way too difficult to counter with early and mid game tech, i.e. Thors and Colossi. Unlimited NP would give Zerg an effective counter, and force Terran and Toss players to actually micro those units, work to defend them, and try to bring down the infestor before an NP turns their heavy units against their own army.
3 seemingly minor buffs. None of them would change the way Zerg fundamentally plays. None of them involve adding new units or abilities. None of them, really, even involves a straight power buff like "make Roaches tougher" or anything. They are subtle tweaks.
Yet I believe if they were instituted, it could absolutely alter the way Zerg plays, and make them far better in all stages of the game.
Best patching suggestions I've read so far.
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EPT
