EPTI played SC, BW, and now SC2.. and zerg feels like SC1.5, not even BW. Mutas and hydras both got weaker, and in exchange zerg got a queen Spawn larva.
Seriously. And terrans got... (hey lets just make every terran unit better than it was in BW)
IdrA Speaks On: Patch 1.1 - Page 18
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Roaming
United States239 Posts
I played SC, BW, and now SC2.. and zerg feels like SC1.5, not even BW. Mutas and hydras both got weaker, and in exchange zerg got a queen Spawn larva. Seriously. And terrans got... (hey lets just make every terran unit better than it was in BW) | ||
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Stayenalive
United States13 Posts
I play 100% zerg. The only time I have problems is when i don't drone up to support a 2 base economy after prepping for early "cheese" (real cheese doesn't exist). This seems to be the big issue with zerg. Figuring out how to make an army, and to make a good base. You can't make both at the same time. Now, I wish to do something the article didn't do, and what other posters here are doing. The suggested fix I have would be to also give infested terrans to queens (with all their other abilities). Yes, the infestor and queen should both have this useless little ranged unit. However, the infested terran for queens, should not cost any mana, it should spawn 2-3 infested terrans, and it should be on a 60-90second cooldown. I am glad something is being done even if it is a month at a time. This patch might be halfway between point A and B, but at least it took steps in the right direction. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
As much as I dislike IdrA, I can't help but agree. I think the changes to Reapers and Zealots were too much of a knee-jerk reaction. I was just starting to feel like the SC2 community was really adapting to those techniques and they were losing the effectiveness that made them such a pain for Zergs. I think nerfing the Siege Tank was a mistake. It makes little difference and as far as I'm concerned, the tanks were never the problem - it was the ball of infantry supporting them that was the issue. When Terran infantry gets stim, it's the strongest unit comp in the game in my opinion. Two units, Marines and Marauders liquify anything in their path and have the speed to outrun (with stim) anything that could mow them down (i.e. Banelings) and attack-move-micro the threat into oblivion. I play random, and when I've pulled Terran I've set some constraints on myself to test out the notion of Marine and Marauder being insanely strong. For the last week I've decided to only make Marines and Marauders with stim - without Medivacs. I rarely lose at 30+ Diamond. Now, I don't mean to turn this into a giant "nerf Terran" post; and I've really no idea how you fix their infantry, but my God, it's so powerful with stim. Marauders can go toe-to-toe with Hydras, Immortals, Stalkers, Zealots (kiting) - at cost or cheaper - while Marines fill in the gaps. I know the counters are FG, Colossus, Storm, etc. but in practice the opponent either a) doesn't have time to get them or b) they're not strong enough (infantry can dance through storm no problem and stimmed Marauders rip apart Colossus). I often hear the argument "well, Colossus, FG, Storm really weaken the bio-ball..." That's all fine and good but weak =/= dead. If the Terran is left with 2 Marauders with 1 hp standing over the corpses of your army - you lost. Terran is still very, very, very strong. As a random player, I like to think I'm not too biased - I enjoy playing all races; and people may disagree but this is how I've seen things. You just don't need to make more than Marines and Marauders to really lay the hurt on your opponent. Obviously eventually you need to make different units as you progress in the game or ladder rank - but just as an experiment for yourself - try it. Try only making stimmed Marines and Marauders for a few games. See how far it gets you. Then try only making the T1 equivalent from the other races. See if it gets you anywhere near as far. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
Then try only making the T1 equivalent from the other races. See if it gets you anywhere near as far. Diamond is full of Toss players who do nothing but 4-gate, attack move, and occasionally drop a forcefield. T1 Toss armies are really, really good, especially if you're any good with forcefields | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
Why? My wins: Protoss - 6x Terran - 6x Zerg - 3x (~1000ish pt diamond)  Hydras feel completely unusable - the only times I feel I can use them at ALL is when my opponent lets me goop up the entire map and doesn't kill creep tumors ever, so at least I can have some mobility. Sure, they do alright vs gateway units, as long as there's no charge, storm, good (or just tons of) forcefields. Against terran they're less effective and durable than equal supply/minerals of marines, too slow to be any use in breaking tank lines, unless your numbers are just overwhelming, pretty much terrible against anything except marauders. Hydras have such good dps (and all untyped - this surprised me, as in BW they were NOT untyped damage.) but at 100/50/2 with 80 health, they are both one of the slowest units - 2.25, flat out the lowest health unit for your buck in the game - even the squishiest air units (mutas, vikings) are better off in the health department. They also have pretty poor range (5 without upgrade - stalkers & marauders have 6, only marines are that low) and the range upgrade is only +1 range, so even with the upgrade they don't really excel at this. (Zerg lacks a long range ground unit very badly...) If hydras are going to cost so much more compared to BW, and take 2 supply, why do they still move and die as if they are 1 supply T1 units from BW? With one of their critical BW upgrades REMOVED, no less? Roaches are DECENT with the speed upgrade, but I cannot understand why that upgrade needs lair tech. (Hydra speed didn't in BW!) | ||
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chimthegrim
United States31 Posts
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
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Damaskinos
Germany139 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:05 Hawk wrote: I was expecting the famous Idra rage, but actually got good insight. He pretty much nailed what the patch will effect, though didn't offer much about how to fix any of the issues. The only thing he really touched on in that dept. was scouting with zerg, but didn't really say what to do. I actually really, really like these buffs. Very minor, but solves a lot of issues with minimal consequences. I am not quite sure if 20 fast 0-supply-drophships are actualy a good idea. Maybe this is better: Make Overlords faster, remove the transport ability and give it to Overseers, increese the supply-cost of Overseers to 1, increase contaminate cost to 100 Energy. On IdrA's post: As some posters allready said, it would have been better, if he had proposed more concrete changes. I guess it's well known, that there is something wrong with Zerg in the early game. And I believe that this is not siege tanks... Maybe something like the change to Overlords above? My 5 cent. | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:42 chimthegrim wrote: I think the reason Zerg isn't getting a buff is because a lot of players haven't discovered that using mass queens + transfusion can be effective. I've seen people do it well. And I'm going to try it out this weekend. While Transfusion is great for defense in a tight situation it has no use outside of that. I have tried it multiple times in my Zerg ball and the amount of micro it takes isn't worth healing one hydra or roach when instead I could just be adding extra units besides queens to my army composition. They are, however, very useful when you've teched to Ultra's and then it's one of the sickest things ever because those things become TANKS. | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
On September 25 2010 03:04 Hier wrote: Would someone help me out please. Why exactly is late game now more protoss favoured in PvT after 1.1? Is it the tank change? Doesn't that affect pretty much only zealots, which will end up charging into marauders first anyway? I'll admit I did not read all 18 pages of comments. It's really hard to lategame macro when you're eating a hotpocket with one hand. | ||
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arsenic
United States163 Posts
On September 25 2010 01:24 LittleeD wrote: But with a bunch of Z buffs it will be Z>P? P is currently favored in the ZvP matchup. If you buff Zerg, it'd make it a lot more even on all fronts for Zerg. | ||
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Phanekim
United States777 Posts
On September 24 2010 17:27 IdrA wrote: probably up overlord base speed reasonably, make neural parasite either 50 mana + an upgrade or 75 mana and no upgrade, and it needs to last longer. or if you want zerg to be more swarm-y buff hydras and roaches, hydras off creep speed up and probably hp up, and roachs 4 range or 2 armor, maybe faster burrow speed, and switch hydra/roach on the tech tree. also the ability to block a ramp with 2 pylons and 2 bunkers needs to be addressed, im not sure if they can make unbuildable areas that would prevent it but still allow normal building walls but that would work. these probably seem like really big changes but people actually massively underestimate just how bad the balance is. i honestly doubt the changes i suggested would be enough. i tend to somewhat agree with these suggestions. they never really fully compensated for roach supply nerf. that was pretty devastating. | ||
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Bluerain
United States348 Posts
Z used to have tier 1 AA and overlords could detect.... | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On September 25 2010 03:15 Cloak wrote: It's really hard to lategame macro when you're eating a hotpocket with one hand. LOL | ||
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dsxrflol
42 Posts
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Karkadinn
United States132 Posts
On September 25 2010 02:52 Damaskinos wrote: I am not quite sure if 20 fast 0-supply-drophships are actualy a good idea. Maybe this is better: Make Overlords faster, remove the transport ability and give it to Overseers, increese the supply-cost of Overseers to 1, increase contaminate cost to 100 Energy. On IdrA's post: As some posters allready said, it would have been better, if he had proposed more concrete changes. I guess it's well known, that there is something wrong with Zerg in the early game. And I believe that this is not siege tanks... Maybe something like the change to Overlords above? My 5 cent. At a certain point, having extra dropships becomes redundant. 'Twenty dropships that don't take up food' might sound good on paper, but in practice, it's less practical than having, say, three dropships that can play healbot. This is especially true since so many Zerg units got food increases from BW to SC2. Your Contaminate suggestion just seems like something you're throwing out there 'Because we have to balance a buff with a nerf.' I haven't seen anyone seriously complaining about Contaminate, ever, and Zerg have one less real combat spellcaster as it is. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4830 Posts
On September 25 2010 03:36 Bluerain wrote: Z used to have tier 1 AA and overlords could detect.... Z had a crapton of early game advantages in BW that did not carry over. Slow Zerglings were faster than anything Terran until Vultures, and faster than any Protoss ground unit. They also had noticeably higher DPS, and could be controlled more precisely because the AI didn't interfere with your control. They also executed devastating counters, because they were so much harder to wall against. Zerg relied on low worker counts (to save larva for units/buildings), which was fairly effective because 1-worker-per-patch mined more than 50% of full saturation, and 3-workers-on-gas was enough. Now it's less than 50%, and you need 6 on gas, so despite the Queen offering a better deal than building a third hatchery, you still end up with fewer larva to spare on soldiers. Further, without the need for Queens, the Zerg could reach Lair tech much faster. ...and BW maps were way-the-fuck bigger, enhancing the Zerg's reactive style, and allowing them greater exploitation of their crazy-fast ground units. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
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vectorix108
United States4633 Posts
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