EPTIdrA Speaks On: Patch 1.1 - Page 20
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Headshot
United States1656 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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Fa1nT
United States3423 Posts
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Graven
United States314 Posts
It's also interesting that while the main issue is in ZvT, hypothetically speaking, it should be an equal issue in ZvP; however, it's not because the Hydra works against Protoss. Essentially, as Zerg, if you race to Hydra fast against Protoss, you're protected from anything they may have hidden for the mid-game. If they go Immortal, 4-gate, Phoenix, or VR, you're fine. By the time they can get to HT/Storm or Colossi, Zerg is able to scout and react. Against Terran, Hydras suck, forcing Zerg to need a specific response to whatever mid-game threat Terran might be using, amplifying the problem. Currently, I almost always go for Muta against Terran, which is not ideal, it's simply the best option Zerg has. | ||
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Hoku
United States129 Posts
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1Lamb1Rice
United States435 Posts
On September 25 2010 06:04 Graven wrote: As has been mentioned, the #1 problem is the inability for Zerg to scout in the early game. Until that is helped, nerfing random things here and there is just a band-aid. It's also interesting that while the main issue is in ZvT, hypothetically speaking, it should be an equal issue in ZvP; however, it's not because the Hydra works against Protoss. Essentially, as Zerg, if you race to Hydra fast against Protoss, you're protected from anything they may have hidden for the mid-game. If they go Immortal, 4-gate, Phoenix, or VR, you're fine. By the time they can get to HT/Storm or Colossi, Zerg is able to scout and react. Against Terran, Hydras suck, forcing Zerg to need a specific response to whatever mid-game threat Terran might be using, amplifying the problem. Currently, I almost always go for Muta against Terran, which is not ideal, it's simply the best option Zerg has. I agree with most of the things said here, but against protoss "racing" to hydra leaves you vulnerable to a simple 2 gate opener and you don't have an expand. If you're FE you probably aren't racing to hydra and a 4 gate will, more often than not, wipe you out. As far as scouting, this is clearly the issue with zerg. Fix this and zerg has a chance. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 25 2010 05:38 Headshot wrote: Messing with damage/build time of certain units is not going to fix this game. There are serious problems with the Zerg infrastructure that only new units, and perhaps swapping the Roach and Hydralisk Den can fix. Scouting is also still going to be a problem. SC2 isn't any closer to being balanced than it was pre-1.1. New units will NOT solve the problem, because you still have to be able to afford them both in matters of minerals/gas AND larvae. That is not possible in the early game on the tiny Blizzard maps where early harrassment or pushes will cripple the Zerg economy. This usually ends with the Zerg losing if the opponent doesnt make a mistake. This systematic difference of the Zerg race is turned into a huge drawback by the faster development - compared to BW - of Terrans and Protoss. Sure the Queen gives extra larvae, but that doesnt really speed up the process compared to BW - where you got the extra larvae from more hatcheries - until after you have two hatcheries and two queens, but you still need to spend larvae on Drones. In any case you are at a disadvantage in your development. On September 25 2010 05:55 Jayrod wrote: Ive read through every post on this thread and not once have I heard anyone mention an army composition that included more than 2 unit types. This isn't SC:BW... its time to evolve. Even marine/tank diversifies. This isn't SC1, blizzard isn't going to ruin the balance by making unnecessary buffs... zergs just need to explore strategies or go back to playing WoW because im sure 90% of zerg players are WoW players that whine until heroics get nerfed. It isnt possible for Zerg to "evolve", simply because they are hamstrung by fast Terran harrassment (Reapers or Hellions) or run over by super fast Protoss proxy Gateway pushes. Blizzard needs to make systematic changes and these probably include slowing down the Warp Gate research and increasing the size of the maps. Both of these are necessary to give Zerg the time to "evolve". | ||
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
As far as scouting, this is clearly the issue with zerg. Fix this and zerg has a chance It isn't broken so how can they fix it. Zerg has easier scouting than Protoss early game and probably late game too since detection denies most Protoss scouting. Against Terran, Hydras suck, forcing Zerg to need a specific response to whatever mid-game threat Terran might be using, amplifying the problem This would be more of the issue right here. Buff hydralisk so it isn't weaker than marines and a lot of it goes away. Buff roaches so they are much more viable early and part of it goes away as well. I really have never seen a compelling argument that scouting is a big issue for Zerg. The inability to deny scouting and just not having good general purpose units is the problem. Those general purpose units are supposed to be roach+hydra+zergling but most players just have to counter the zergling part. | ||
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1Lamb1Rice
United States435 Posts
On September 25 2010 06:35 Rabiator wrote: New units will NOT solve the problem, because you still have to be able to afford them both in matters of minerals/gas AND larvae. That is not possible in the early game on the tiny Blizzard maps where early harrassment or pushes will cripple the Zerg economy. This usually ends with the Zerg losing if the opponent doesnt make a mistake. This systematic difference of the Zerg race is turned into a huge drawback by the faster development - compared to BW - of Terrans and Protoss. Sure the Queen gives extra larvae, but that doesnt really speed up the process compared to BW - where you got the extra larvae from more hatcheries - until after you have two hatcheries and two queens, but you still need to spend larvae on Drones. In any case you are at a disadvantage in your development. It isnt possible for Zerg to "evolve", simply because they are hamstrung by fast Terran harrassment (Reapers or Hellions) or run over by super fast Protoss proxy Gateway pushes. Blizzard needs to make systematic changes and these probably include slowing down the Warp Gate research and increasing the size of the maps. Both of these are necessary to give Zerg the time to "evolve". Finally, someone who gets it. Couldn't have said it better myself. | ||
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heishe
Germany2284 Posts
On September 25 2010 06:35 Rabiator wrote: New units will NOT solve the problem, because you still have to be able to afford them both in matters of minerals/gas AND larvae. That is not possible in the early game on the tiny Blizzard maps where early harrassment or pushes will cripple the Zerg economy. This usually ends with the Zerg losing if the opponent doesnt make a mistake. This systematic difference of the Zerg race is turned into a huge drawback by the faster development - compared to BW - of Terrans and Protoss. Sure the Queen gives extra larvae, but that doesnt really speed up the process compared to BW - where you got the extra larvae from more hatcheries - until after you have two hatcheries and two queens, but you still need to spend larvae on Drones. In any case you are at a disadvantage in your development. It isnt possible for Zerg to "evolve", simply because they are hamstrung by fast Terran harrassment (Reapers or Hellions) or run over by super fast Protoss proxy Gateway pushes. Blizzard needs to make systematic changes and these probably include slowing down the Warp Gate research and increasing the size of the maps. Both of these are necessary to give Zerg the time to "evolve". May I ask where this change in attitude comes from? For the past few weeks/months you were like the king crusader of the (at first) "ZvT / ZvP is not imbalanced" and then the "It might not be as imbalanced as you say it is, Zergs need to l2p" movements, and now this?^^ Did you switch to Zerg or something? | ||
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Sworn
Canada920 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
On September 25 2010 06:02 Fa1nT wrote: Because using 5 different zerg units means we have to research 10-15 different expensive upgrades for speed, range, energy, attack, defense, ect? Just like every other race? Face it. Many zerg are sitting on 1-2 unit types while Terran and Protoss players are not. It's hard to feel sorry for the Zerg players that only do hydra/roach or ling/muta while T go MMM/tank/raven or P goes zealot/stalker/sentry/HT/collosus etc. etc. | ||
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willeesmalls
United States477 Posts
On September 25 2010 08:02 oxxo wrote: Just like every other race? Face it. Many zerg are sitting on 1-2 unit types while Terran and Protoss players are not. It's hard to feel sorry for the Zerg players that only do hydra/roach or ling/muta while T go MMM/tank/raven or P goes zealot/stalker/sentry/HT/collosus etc. etc. I'll agree with you there are unskilled zergs. But there are good zerg players who are also having trouble in the zvt matchup. The unit choices are generally due to the fact that terran has easily obtainable hard counters to 2/3 of zerg units. | ||
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1Lamb1Rice
United States435 Posts
On September 25 2010 08:02 oxxo wrote: Just like every other race? Face it. Many zerg are sitting on 1-2 unit types while Terran and Protoss players are not. It's hard to feel sorry for the Zerg players that only do hydra/roach or ling/muta while T go MMM/tank/raven or P goes zealot/stalker/sentry/HT/collosus etc. etc. Well T and P only need a few different unit producing structures to make that nice composition. Zerg meanwhile needs to sac a drone/larva every time we want a different unit. Plus it takes twice as long to get the right unit comp. For example when we scout and see that we need roaches. We must do two things: Build a roach warren and then build roaches. Terran when they see that they need marauders only need to do one thing: Build mauraders. They already have barracks. Nothing is out of the way for them. Barrack Factory and Starport are just 3 buildings that contain the majority of the units that they need, ghost and BC are pretty auxiliary and not imperative to any unit composition. Tech labs are inexpensive and build fast without a worker and can be swapped. Lift and land easily fixes the need for a tech lab. | ||
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eiswand
Germany44 Posts
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Raid
United States398 Posts
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
Well, to put things in context, Terran can unlock all their tech, bar ghosts and battlecruisers, within 185 seconds of starting their first barracks, for (if memory serves) 650m/350g. That's marines, marauders, reapers, hellions, tanks, thors, medivacs, vikings, banshees and ravens. Even if he manages to scout, a Zerg player can only confidently identify mass bio; beyond that trying to divine a Terran's strategy ahead of time from the contents of his base is a guessing-game. Personally, I find it much easier to divine a Terran's strategy from the contents of my base, because that's where his army is. But I digress. So Terran has a fuck-ton of strategic options. Cool. I don't object to that, so let's not treat that as the problem. It's just context. Now drop a Zerg opponent into that context. Zerg's slower, costlier tech-tree (yes, I'm aware of the associated advantages, but they only really kick in much later) in conjunction with very robust unit counters and the Terran's ability to turtle, together mean that the onus is upon Zerg to correctly anticipate and prepare to repel initial aggression. Fail, and the game is over. That's already quite harsh, because it's always that way around The real problems begin when you think about what happens if the Zerg succeeds. If a Terran army absolutely crushes a Zerg army, having sacrificed economy to do so, he can press on and win, or at least inflict substantial economic damage. But if the Zerg inflicts an early, crushing defeat, he's screwed. He's behind economically, just as the Terran would have been, but he can't end the game, and he probably can't even inflict economic damage. It doesn't end there, though. Every Zerg response to early aggression hands his Terran opponent another clear-cut chance to win with a fairly modest investment. Force speedlings, and a handful of hellions will snap the game in Terran's favour. Force roaches with reapers, and marauders (mass produced with the same tech buildings) swiftly trump them. Delay lair and inhibit queen production with constant harass, and banshees deliver the coup de grace. Force lair and a similar trick can be employed with different units against an inadequate Zerg army. At any stage it's very, very hard for the Terran player to overreach himself on units or economy and lose the game. Terran dominance has come about, primarily, not through the discovery of specific OP strategies but through the dawning realisation of just how devastatingly easy it is to fake out, surprise or anticipate a Zerg opponent. In my opinion, Zerg just needs to be made less reliant on specialist, hard-countered units in the early game. In BW, all three races had solid, accessible general-purpose core units or unit combos to stabilise the matchups: marines, hydras and zealots/dragoons. In SC2, only Zerg lacks such a catch-all early game unit combo - something they can defend and/or win with - and surprise surprise, they're the race struggling the most. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On September 24 2010 23:44 EnderCN wrote: Zerg has the best mid game scouting if you are including persistent scouting. They have the 2nd best early scouting as well having it better than Protoss does. What they have is the weakest in base scouting and that is something the changeling does help wiht a little bit. All of the scouting complaints are really complaints about how hard it is for Zerg to get counters out for different strats. Protoss can counter every early build with just gateway units, Zerg can pick the wrong path to go down and lose if they can't scout in base early enough. Zerg has the best mid game scouting? really? This is news to me, last I checked suiciding a ling at a ramp usually gives little to no information about what tech the opponent is going. Sacking a floating supply depot is a pretty expensive a way to get information, especially when you have to do it over and over again. I'd rather have scans or an observer any day. Not to mention that until I pay another 100/100 for speed that floating supply depot takes like a year to get to his base and usually is sniped before information is gained without this speed. | ||
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crw
Canada70 Posts
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EnderCN
United States499 Posts
On September 25 2010 09:32 kmillz wrote: Zerg has the best mid game scouting? really? This is news to me, last I checked suiciding a ling at a ramp usually gives little to no information about what tech the opponent is going. Sacking a floating supply depot is a pretty expensive a way to get information, especially when you have to do it over and over again. I'd rather have scans or an observer any day. Not to mention that until I pay another 100/100 for speed that floating supply depot takes like a year to get to his base and usually is sniped before information is gained without this speed. You are only looking at half of what scouting is though. Holding towers, overlords, creep tumors are all scouting. Watch an IdrA game and by mid game he sees at least 50% of the map at all times. He almost always sees exactly what is coming way before it reaches him, high end Terran players largely play in the dark mid game outside of scans. That is why I said they have weak in base scouting, it is hard for them to scout what is inside a base. They can use overseers and changelings to do this as well as mutalisk. Observers are nice but they are incredibly easy to deny in base scouting with and Terran pretty much has vikings and scans and sensor towers. It is pretty close between Terran and Zerg. If all you are talking about is seeing specifically what is in someones base then yeah it goes Terran > Zerg > Protoss early game and Terran > Zerg = Protoss late game. When you add persistent scouting Zerg takes over though. None of that changes my point though. If roach+hydra were a viable combo mid game Zerg wouldn't really NEED in base scouting just like Protoss doesn't. It would be nice but not needed. The fact that their main army units just aren't strong enough is severely limiting. | ||
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