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Why get rid of match history?
Football teams watch videos of their opponents to prepare for their games.
Top poker players study their opponents during games, on tv, and online.
It may seem unfair to be able to look at match history, and I suppose you could argue that because it wasn't televised/streamed or given out as a replay it isn't fair. However.. in Starcraft it is wise to not try to have one single strategy. You need to be able to adapt in a game to what your opponent is doing.
A good Starcraft player, like a good poker player would also have a number of different strategies/tactics to employ that can be done on the fly. Not exactly specific build orders.
If any match history were hidden, I would have to say just custom games.
Also, if you are a player basing your play off specific build orders of your opponent, then you are just BAD & need to L2Play. You deserve it if they trick you by throwing a false build order into their mix.
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I like the idea of blocking build order in custom games, but not ladder games. Anything "on the record" should be public.
Hell, I'd love a random observer mode where you can just join in any current ladder game between two randoms that you don't know.
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On September 16 2010 06:21 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:08 binary25 wrote:On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over. I'm flabbergasted that people keep comparing this to professional sports. In no professional sport can somebody get detailed information on an opponent's private practice. Please stop using faulty comparisons like this. Replays/vods can be totally different than what a player does in private practices. For example a college football team can practice a gimmick play to use in a huge game. If the opponent had knowledge of this, they would expect it and all hopes of that gimmick play succeeding would be nullified. Plenty of players will develop a specific build vs a specific opponent on a specific map. A huge part of a lot these builds is the element of surprise, which with match history is nullified. No professional player who actually cares about winning would release all his replays of his private practice games to an opponent. Yes scouting can be beneficial to esports to an extent, which is why replays/vods exist. But to have NOTHING private versus an opponent is a ludicrous notion in any professional sport requiring complex strategies and planning. Do you think Lakers would let the Celtics sit in on their practices? Make build orders hideable in match history and tada its solved. Or that college team can leak the trick play and fake it on the field that they are doing it and run a different route and trick his opponent. Which Lotze did to Idra. It works both ways. Just like working on a build to use on your opponent, people will start practicing builds and then completely do a different one to trick their opponent. If their opponent is dumb enough to completely rely on match history they deserve to lose. The possibilities are endless and the BEST thing to do in the end is just to work on YOUR game and adapt to what you scout. Ultimately that's what it's going to come down to. Edit: Tpir pretty much hit the nail on the head. Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:11 tpir wrote:
The argument for hiding match histories sounds like when poker players were worried about having their hole cards exposed on TV and online players didn't like that tables could be data-mined for hand histories. The idea was that the mystique would be shattered and the top secret strategies would be revealed, ruining the game in the process. Yet, poker's popularity and the metagame both exploded because there are no secrets *that* large in poker.
Does this argument against hiding hold for SC2 as well? What if I know my opponent is preparing for me preparing for him? What if he knows I know that too!? Are we both going to double switch-up our build orders? Now all of a sudden the match histories become a very small piece of the bigger metagame picture... which is fairly cool and makes strategy games better.
The player should have the right to keep this private information hidden. It's a ludicrous concept that a player doesn't have the right to keep information about some of his games private. Yes college teams can leak plays, they have that choice. If build orders were hideable players could leak replays in the same way, but as it stands now they don't even have that choice. Anybody in any competitive sport should have the right to keep practice information private.
And yes in some ways this can be compared to what happened to poker, but there are also large and substantial differences. In poker there is nothing comparable to innovating specific build orders to use against an opponent. With any smart player studying his opponent's match history thoroughly now, players will be discouraged from trying these innovative new strategies. For people arguing, "well good, they should focus on sound strats and improving that." WHERE IS THE FUN IN THAT?
A lot of the greatest moments in sports comes from innovative tactics/strategies completely taking an opponent off guard. One of the greatest NFL games I've seen was when in the third game of the season the Miami Dolphins dissect the seemingly invincible New England Patriots by suddenly pulling out the Wildcat offense out of NOWHERE. It completely caught the Patriots off guard and resulted in them losing. If the Patriots were sitting in on the Dolphin's practices, they would have seen it coming and the effectiveness would have been drastically reduced.
Yes, occasionally you will have fake out moments like Lotze vs Idra which was great, but as the game evolves and players start studying match histories a lot more closely, opportunities for a player like AugustWerra to completely take Spunky by surprise with a Battleship timing push will become almost nonexistent. Again to stress my point, players should have this simple right of privacy. That's why I think it should be an option to turn it off or on, so if a player so chooses he can reveal the information to his opponent to mess with his mind, but also have the option of hiding it to try and practice a completely new and innovative idea.
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On September 16 2010 06:57 Illison wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:52 Mutarisk wrote:On September 16 2010 06:30 R3d wrote:
Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that. It makes for boring games. I'd rather see two top players go against each other using true skill instead of mind games to win. When two NFL teams play; sure they have film to study and exploit weaknesses of their opponents game. But the NFL game doesn't end if three void rays fly over the stadium for one play. There are shut outs in NFL games though. Who knows how many of those are due to studying game film.
Yeah... when this happens it's because one team is obviously better than the other usually though. Also, Bill Belichick got in trouble for recording a teams practice. That's pretty much the same as looking at someones build order imo.
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I agree completely with the OP, and a perfect example of this problem in action is the first game Idra played in the GSL vs the T Acupuncture.
People looked up his match history, his builds, and most likely some of his replays. They figured out he loves the cool ghost drop + nuke strat vs zerg, and someone even made a nice big write-up on his play style and history. While I don't fault anyone for doing such (using the tools at your disposal is a good thing) I do fault blizzard for making this possible.
I think it makes it even harder for the underdog to do well. One of the best parts about being unknown in a tourny is that the other person has no idea what to expect. If you play idra, you expect a drawn out macro game, if you play a WC3 player you can generally expect a shorter 1 base micro game. With the match history, your element of surprise is gone.
It's also impossible to hide your replays if you so desire. As soon as you play a ladder game vs a random kid who knows your name, and decides it would be cool to host him playing vs you on any of the replay sites, it's too late.
On September 16 2010 07:01 Snippa- wrote:
Why get rid of match history?
Football teams watch videos of their opponents to prepare for their games.
Top poker players study their opponents during games, on tv, and online.
This is also a very valid argument. It really just comes down to what the community, and the top players think is best for Esports.
I guess if all of the top players felt that while the change is new, annoying, and changes the dynamic from Broodwar match ups, but yet is still good, then I would be siding with them. In the end I think it's the pros who should decide, because it's them who it affects most.
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On September 16 2010 07:02 artanis2 wrote:
Hell, I'd love a random observer mode where you can just join in any current ladder game between two randoms that you don't know.
No, no, no, no, and no.
Lag issues, spectator cheat/misinformation issues.
Even if the spectator were blocked from communicating directly with the players, if the spectator knew someone who knew the person playing, the info could be passed along.
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You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it
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On September 16 2010 07:01 Snippa- wrote:
Why get rid of match history?
Football teams watch videos of their opponents to prepare for their games.
Top poker players study their opponents during games, on tv, and online.
It may seem unfair to be able to look at match history, and I suppose you could argue that because it wasn't televised/streamed or given out as a replay it isn't fair. However.. in Starcraft it is wise to not try to have one single strategy. You need to be able to adapt in a game to what your opponent is doing.
A good Starcraft player, like a good poker player would also have a number of different strategies/tactics to employ that can be done on the fly. Not exactly specific build orders.
If any match history were hidden, I would have to say just custom games.
Also, if you are a player basing your play off specific build orders of your opponent, then you are just BAD & need to L2Play. You deserve it if they trick you by throwing a false build order into their mix.
Progamers in BW also study VoDs of their opponents. Match history is different in this context because not many pro VoDs exist so match history is the only way to go. However, I think match history should be hidden since its sort of the in-house mindgame - practice certain strats in-house but only release the reps for the strats you want the public to see.
I agree with your points to some extent but I think hiding match history and letting players control what is released to the public adds a less transparent mind game than what we saw in the GSL last night.
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On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it
Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2.
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I think all of this could be solved if you could just simply join hidden / lock / private (almost LAN-like) games with specific people. Then you'd have an environment where what you play on ladder is public, but you can practice in secrecy.
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In a lot of sports, film is used. If the film is obtained though legitimate ways, you only have a few options. You film public games, obtain film from others that have recorded public games, and I am sure the list can go on. In starcraft2, the equivalent would be broadcasted games, VODs, or replays. Playing on the ladder would be an extension of that. You are playing with a 2nd party that can choose to disclose the information.
Now if I am a football player, a wrestler, a basketball player, or whatever else... would I want my practice routine publicly exposed? Not really...
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On September 16 2010 07:10 binary25 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2.
Are you actually using creativity as a reason to leave this 'feature' in? Hahaha... surely this is the least creative thing possible, showing everyones exact strategies.
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On September 16 2010 07:06 Snippa- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:02 artanis2 wrote:
Hell, I'd love a random observer mode where you can just join in any current ladder game between two randoms that you don't know. No, no, no, no, and no. Lag issues, spectator cheat/misinformation issues. Even if the spectator were blocked from communicating directly with the players, if the spectator knew someone who knew the person playing, the info could be passed along.
I'm pretty sure there was something like this in WC3, except it was basically a restream of the game that was delayed significantly, so there were no lag or cheating issues.
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On September 16 2010 07:18 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:10 binary25 wrote:On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2. Are you actually using creativity as a reason to leave this 'feature' in? Hahaha... surely this is the least creative thing possible, showing everyones exact strategies.
No I believe he is anti-build order/match history
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Having the right to see match history and BO is the same as sitting in their practice session everyday and listening to what their coaches tell the players before every match.
How so? Is there an option for audio commentary in the match history that I missed? (Not being srs ffs) That you started with this and built on it as a premise is enough to show how weak your overall argument is.
I also really like (again sarcasm!) the weasel word "spying" and the bogus "rights" claims. No one is breaking and entering into people's houses, this is all free and public information available at a few clicks. And Blizzard could delete our accounts tomorrow for any reason at all if they wanted so people should stop pretending like their build orders are some valuable intellectual property that they "own". Long story short: adapt to the metagame and get over it.
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On September 16 2010 07:18 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:10 binary25 wrote:On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2. Are you actually using creativity as a reason to leave this 'feature' in? Hahaha... surely this is the least creative thing possible, showing everyones exact strategies.
Huh? I'm pretty sure he just advocated getting rid of it, unless I interpreted it wrong.
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The player should have the right to keep this private information hidden.
It isn't private though. You are assuming from the outset that it *should* be and then working backwards. Bad logic and "no".
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On September 16 2010 07:21 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:18 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 16 2010 07:10 binary25 wrote:On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2. Are you actually using creativity as a reason to leave this 'feature' in? Hahaha... surely this is the least creative thing possible, showing everyones exact strategies. No I believe he is anti-build order/match history
Oh sorry, i misread there. Something i did think about in context to this. Imagine if Fantasy practicing his valk build was visible to anyone, it would have never been used in a real game even if it only showed up a few times in a match history. That kind of innovative build would be useless.
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On September 16 2010 07:22 tpir wrote:It isn't private though. You are assuming from the outset that it *should* be and then working backwards. Bad logic and "no".
It should be private, just like how our home address and phone number should be kept private.
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On September 16 2010 07:04 sensenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:01 Snippa- wrote:
Why get rid of match history?
Football teams watch videos of their opponents to prepare for their games.
Top poker players study their opponents during games, on tv, and online.
This is also a very valid argument. It really just comes down to what the community, and the top players think is best for Esports. I guess if all of the top players felt that while the change is new, annoying, and changes the dynamic from Broodwar match ups, but yet is still good, then I would be siding with them. In the end I think it's the pros who should decide, because it's them who it affects most.
This argument is COMPLETELY INVALID. In sports you study the matches that the team plays not their practice sessions. In fact it's illegal to go in and film a practice session if the team doesn't allow you do to do. Studying of previous matches has always happened and will always happen. The concern is that your practice is now being studied which is not on.
I really don't understand how people can confuse the two so easily then continue to argue about this subject. It's completely illogical.
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EPT
