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On September 16 2010 03:17 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:11 Rumiah wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Using tennis as an example to this, scouting someone in tennis you might see something like, he has a strong forehand and likes to hit downtheline shots every few points. The differerence bewteen this and scouting someone in sc2 via match history is that you get the EXACT timings of everything he is going to do, going back to tennis here, if you knew what your opponent was going to do every point it would be a struggle to lose if you were around the same skill level. Well i thought the pro players could vary their build orders? I rarely see a game where they go for the exact same build as the first game. I'm also pretty sure that the pro players adapt their build to whatever their opponent is doing, and not just blindly go for the same build again and again. Everyone knows that IdrA is a macro player and likes to macro alot before he attacks. I dont see what's wrong with that. Trying to hide your build orders would also be very tricky, and kinda strange. Also, i'd never go look up some build order that my opponent did, and just assume that they're going to use that against me, i'd be taking a huge chance.
Exactly. And you guys talk like pro tennis players will watch a 15 tape of an opponent and that's it. On world-class levels, they do everything they can. Analyze walking patterns, ball speeds, amount of effect etc. And yet they cannot find out everything, just like in SC. Granted, I know more about football(soccer) than tennis but these guys do just as much as you can in SC.
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my exact thoughts when I was watching the GSL hearing about what was going on with replays was "they NEED to make match history hide-able"
funny how being a poor sport comes back to bite you in the ass though, haha. only thing is I bet Idra didn't know Lotze had some of his replays whereas Lotze probably predicted Idra stealing all his
(could be wrong, just my humble guess)
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Match history is great, the fact that it's show your BO is bad
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This topic was beaten to DEATH during the beta. The spread of information and build orders in this case is never a bad thing. It helps the game evolve quicker and on a constant rotation. It also makes the endgame of SC2 better considering it will come down to the player that makes the best decisions in the game and not who figured out cheesy build #506 and used it all the way to $85K. Watching an OP build be used and then see it get countered the next time it comes up is a beautiful thing.
Idra got hosed last night because he decided to rely on a match history and his opponent completely faked him out if what Artosis says is true. This is no different than if Idra went into last nights games and 6 pooled twice cause his opponent was expecting to have long macro games. Again the spread of information is never a bad thing, it only helps strengthen the game in the long run.
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It seems like nearly every argument against build orders in the match history is based on the premise that only one of the two players involved will use it. What specifically makes this feature bad for tournament games from a compedative or a spectative standpoint assuming, more logically, that everyone is doing it?
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I'd sooner have it that you have the option to hide custom games, not ladder. I feel ladder you shouldn't be able to hide, but if you're practicing for a tourney you're most likely playing customs because you're practicing one MU on certain maps. In that case, have hte option to hide BO/match history completely on customs only. Which is not in your poll options.
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They should just give you an option to hide the details. Make it so you can see the match history but not click on it to get the game stats like build order and the unit graphs.
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Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over.
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On September 16 2010 05:41 Hrrrrm wrote:
This topic was beaten to DEATH during the beta. The spread of information and build orders in this case is never a bad thing. It helps the game evolve quicker and on a constant rotation. It also makes the endgame of SC2 better considering it will come down to the player that makes the best decisions in the game and not who figured out cheesy build #506 and used it all the way to $85K. Watching an OP build be used and then see it get countered the next time it comes up is a beautiful thing.
Idra got hosed last night because he decided to rely on a match history and his opponent completely faked him out if what Artosis says is true. This is no different than if Idra went into last nights games and 6 pooled twice cause his opponent was expecting to have long macro games. Again the spread of information is never a bad thing, it only helps strengthen the game in the long run.
I'm just shocked how many people believe this. How does it strengthen the game if you can't secretly practice the same thing over and over? Repetition is how people get better, not having to worry about a stupid unnecessary metagame in hiding what you are really trying to practice. It's not about cheesy builds either, just any build that you want to refine you can't do that currently, at least with a known account.
On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over.
What the fuck? Do any of you even read the thread? Over and over again its been repeated, you cannot see practice of your opponents in real sports either and in some it's even a crime to try and do it. The SC2 forum is a joke, just tons and tons of people posting in threads without reading or responding to anything just giving a bad opinion then leaving.
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On September 16 2010 05:48 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 05:41 Hrrrrm wrote:
This topic was beaten to DEATH during the beta. The spread of information and build orders in this case is never a bad thing. It helps the game evolve quicker and on a constant rotation. It also makes the endgame of SC2 better considering it will come down to the player that makes the best decisions in the game and not who figured out cheesy build #506 and used it all the way to $85K. Watching an OP build be used and then see it get countered the next time it comes up is a beautiful thing.
Idra got hosed last night because he decided to rely on a match history and his opponent completely faked him out if what Artosis says is true. This is no different than if Idra went into last nights games and 6 pooled twice cause his opponent was expecting to have long macro games. Again the spread of information is never a bad thing, it only helps strengthen the game in the long run. I'm just shocked how many people believe this. How does it strengthen the game if you can't secretly practice the same thing over and over? Repetition is how people get better, not having to worry about a stupid unnecessary metagame in hiding what you are really trying to practice. It's not about cheesy builds either, just any build that you want to refine you can't do that currently, at least with a known account. Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over. What the fuck? Do any of you even read the thread? Over and over again its been repeated, you cannot see practice of your opponents in real sports either and in some it's even a crime to try and do it. The SC2 forum is a joke, just tons and tons of people posting in threads without reading or responding to anything just giving a bad opinion then leaving.
Precisely, and there's also a huge difference between sports scouting and the kind you can do with sc2 i.e. seeing the exact build order because you could never quantify sports play to such a precise degree. You get to now at which second your opponent builds what and it's mapped out to in almost scientific precision so anyone can copy it.
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sc2 is a reactive game. looking at the BO tab doesn't give you the big picture. He might be building unit X because he scouted opponent building unit Y. He built 4 gateways because he wanted to give the scouting enemy wrong information.
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Hide custom games is fine. Ladder should be open and viewable to all in my opinion 
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On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over.
I'm flabbergasted that people keep comparing this to professional sports. In no professional sport can somebody get detailed information on an opponent's private practice. Please stop using faulty comparisons like this. Replays/vods can be totally different than what a player does in private practices. For example a college football team can practice a gimmick play to use in a huge game. If the opponent had knowledge of this, they would expect it and all hopes of that gimmick play succeeding would be nullified.
Plenty of players will develop a specific build vs a specific opponent on a specific map. A huge part of a lot these builds is the element of surprise, which with match history is nullified. No professional player who actually cares about winning would release all his replays of his private practice games to an opponent.
Yes scouting can be beneficial to esports to an extent, which is why replays/vods exist. But to have NOTHING private versus an opponent is a ludicrous notion in any professional sport requiring complex strategies and planning. Do you think Lakers would let the Celtics sit in on their practices?
Make build orders hideable in match history and tada its solved.
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oh noes! everybody can now look at OP and see that he only 6pools....
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The argument for hiding match histories sounds like when poker players were worried about having their hole cards exposed on TV and online players didn't like that tables could be data-mined for hand histories. The idea was that the mystique would be shattered and the top secret strategies would be revealed, ruining the game in the process. Yet, poker's popularity and the metagame both exploded because there are no secrets *that* large in poker.
Does this argument against hiding hold for SC2 as well? What if I know my opponent is preparing for me preparing for him? What if he knows I know that too!? Are we both going to double switch-up our build orders? Now all of a sudden the match histories become a very small piece of the bigger metagame picture... which is fairly cool and makes strategy games better.
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On September 16 2010 06:11 tpir wrote:
The argument for hiding match histories sounds like when poker players were worried about having their hole cards exposed on TV and online players didn't like that tables could be data-mined for hand histories. The idea was that the mystique would be shattered and the top secret strategies would be revealed, ruining the game in the process. Yet, poker's popularity and the metagame both exploded because there are no secrets *that* large in poker.
Does this argument against hiding hold for SC2 as well? What if I know my opponent is preparing for me preparing for him? What if he knows I know that too!? Are we both going to double switch-up our build orders? Now all of a sudden the match histories become a very small piece of the bigger metagame picture... which is fairly cool and makes strategy games better.
gold star post man
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On September 16 2010 06:08 binary25 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over. I'm flabbergasted that people keep comparing this to professional sports. In no professional sport can somebody get detailed information on an opponent's private practice. Please stop using faulty comparisons like this. Replays/vods can be totally different than what a player does in private practices. For example a college football team can practice a gimmick play to use in a huge game. If the opponent had knowledge of this, they would expect it and all hopes of that gimmick play succeeding would be nullified. Plenty of players will develop a specific build vs a specific opponent on a specific map. A huge part of a lot these builds is the element of surprise, which with match history is nullified. No professional player who actually cares about winning would release all his replays of his private practice games to an opponent. Yes scouting can be beneficial to esports to an extent, which is why replays/vods exist. But to have NOTHING private versus an opponent is a ludicrous notion in any professional sport requiring complex strategies and planning. Do you think Lakers would let the Celtics sit in on their practices? Make build orders hideable in match history and tada its solved.
Or that college team can leak the trick play and fake it on the field that they are doing it and run a different route and trick his opponent. Which Lotze did to Idra. It works both ways.
Just like working on a build to use on your opponent, people will start practicing builds and then completely do a different one to trick their opponent. If their opponent is dumb enough to completely rely on match history they deserve to lose. The possibilities are endless and the BEST thing to do in the end is just to work on YOUR game and adapt to what you scout. Ultimately that's what it's going to come down to.
Edit: Tpir pretty much hit the nail on the head.
On September 16 2010 06:11 tpir wrote:
The argument for hiding match histories sounds like when poker players were worried about having their hole cards exposed on TV and online players didn't like that tables could be data-mined for hand histories. The idea was that the mystique would be shattered and the top secret strategies would be revealed, ruining the game in the process. Yet, poker's popularity and the metagame both exploded because there are no secrets *that* large in poker.
Does this argument against hiding hold for SC2 as well? What if I know my opponent is preparing for me preparing for him? What if he knows I know that too!? Are we both going to double switch-up our build orders? Now all of a sudden the match histories become a very small piece of the bigger metagame picture... which is fairly cool and makes strategy games better.
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Make match history hideable. This. I agree with most of the people that match history sohuldn't be seen.
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But then you're encouraging people to practice things they never intend to use?? How is that a good thing? Jesus christ this is stupid.
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Starcraft isn't just a sport, it's a science
what if you had to share every single experiment you made as it happened, then when you try you publish the final result, everyone already knows about it and you get no credit for discovering something new and no one is surprised
my attempt at an analogy, hopefully it's a good one
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EPT
