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On September 16 2010 04:48 thundertoss wrote:
1. most big players/ tournaments are streamed or have vod's available. Every pro game in SCBW is available for everyone to study and that hasn't "ruined" the game whatsoever.
2. if you have the same opening build order so frequently that your opponent will have a sizable advantage from knowing this than you probably need to be able to vary your play. They would know your opening just from scouting and if you know they aren't scouting because they are assuming your are going a certain build than you should easily be able to respond and punish this. Even if you opened up 14 hatch 80% of the time but went like 7 pool 5% of the time your opponent would not be able to counter you with confidence.
3. match history is available for both parties and if you are getting good enough to enter high level tournaments where this minor 'advantage' is what is going to decide the match then their will probably be enough people talking about you to give your opponent a sense of what you favor anyhow.
4. The build order only shows the first few minutes of what your BO is. The only reason this should make difference is if you have a very specific, nonstandard opening you are planning to do vs a specific MU or opponent. If this is the case you should just practice in something like YABOT, use a friends account, or buy another copy. If you need this element of surprise to give you the advantage you are essentially cheesing and he same argument you opened with can be used because you are relying on something other than your own skill and decision making to win the game.
You probably don't realize this, but people don't play each match (especially a tournament match) the same. Players prepare certain builds for a certain game in a tournament match.
I really don't understand why people are supporting this feature. It's been a problem since beta (I remember an incident where a T player knew that his opponent was going to 8rax and he just 10rax'd and won outright)
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I think you should only be able to see build orders of real id friends and your own games.
Nothing wrong with match history, just certain information in certain situations should be blocked
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On September 16 2010 04:52 Stropheum wrote:
I think you should only be able to see build orders of real id friends and your own games.
Nothing wrong with match history, just certain information in certain situations should be blocked
You think people who are real id friends can never meet in a match in an important tournament?
If anything, just have the build order available only in the score screen after the game is played. Don't let it be seen when accessed with the match history.
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I like how the 2 players that we know was studying BO's got burned by doing so :p
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Deal with it. If you want to compete big, you gotta prepare to put it all down. NFL teams do this all the time; many teams will spend the entire Tuesday breaking down every play the opposing team made in their last few games. In CS, all demos from all players are available from matches; if you were so inclined you could watch 15+ hours of demos for the team you'll play next week.
It sounds more like you don't want your 1-trick pony to be discovered than an actual issue. In all professional sports (electronic or otherwise), you have the opportunity to game your opponent. SC2 is no different.
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i think its fine for laddergames. customgames are another story and i agree that it would be really good to get rid of it
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Kind of touching on what incontrol said.. no one at the level that *would* be hiding there bo's should have only one way to play that matchup.. therefor I am pretty certain that this is not a featured that is needed to be taken out of the game (at this point of the game that is).
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On September 16 2010 03:38 BOOWOO wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is absurd. For the 1% of Starcraft players this would actually affect, they would have no problem paying for a smurf.
And anyway, that 1% should be expected to come into a tournament with more that one build per map/matchup. Starcraft champions should be creative, not machines that can do one build order on a map in a specific matchup.
So is Flash bad because he practices a specific build for a specific game in a BO5? Don't be stupid please.
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I think that matches history shouldnt be visible for pro league players.
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On September 16 2010 05:04 0mar wrote:
Deal with it. If you want to compete big, you gotta prepare to put it all down. NFL teams do this all the time; many teams will spend the entire Tuesday breaking down every play the opposing team made in their last few games. In CS, all demos from all players are available from matches; if you were so inclined you could watch 15+ hours of demos for the team you'll play next week.
It sounds more like you don't want your 1-trick pony to be discovered than an actual issue. In all professional sports (electronic or otherwise), you have the opportunity to game your opponent. SC2 is no different.
Yes, but knowing all the hail mary's your opponent has been practicing behind closed doors isn't very interesting either.
In sports lingo, it's not about going through all the opponents players, checking their strengths/weaknesses nor checking out every single game they have played, it is about sending someone to watch your opponent practice.
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On September 16 2010 05:04 0mar wrote:
Deal with it. If you want to compete big, you gotta prepare to put it all down. NFL teams do this all the time; many teams will spend the entire Tuesday breaking down every play the opposing team made in their last few games. In CS, all demos from all players are available from matches; if you were so inclined you could watch 15+ hours of demos for the team you'll play next week.
It sounds more like you don't want your 1-trick pony to be discovered than an actual issue. In all professional sports (electronic or otherwise), you have the opportunity to game your opponent. SC2 is no different.
This isn't like an NFL team watching game footage of a previous game. This is like an NFL team knowing what a team is practicing during their weekly practices. The NFL didn't like the Patriots doing this, you know...
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On September 16 2010 05:04 0mar wrote:
Deal with it. If you want to compete big, you gotta prepare to put it all down. NFL teams do this all the time; many teams will spend the entire Tuesday breaking down every play the opposing team made in their last few games. In CS, all demos from all players are available from matches; if you were so inclined you could watch 15+ hours of demos for the team you'll play next week.
It sounds more like you don't want your 1-trick pony to be discovered than an actual issue. In all professional sports (electronic or otherwise), you have the opportunity to game your opponent. SC2 is no different.
Wow how do people not get this. You know its ILLEGAL to record opponents practice for NFL right? No one cares if you can watch previous games. You should be able to practice your builds for a particularly tournament secretly, there is literally no reason that should be viewable by anyone.
People said on and on about how great it is that Starcraft 2 will be more strategy focused and innovative, now you want to throw that out of the window and have people play on-the-fly incase their smart builds were found out?
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yeah it's funny when these people who have no idea how much preparation goes into a tournament match just say "deal with it."
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match history bastardizes customs and hiding it would make the process a lot more painless.
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Seems like it would hurt the game more. Competitive games like chess and go have all the moves documented for the benefit of everyone. You learn and evolve. Hiding build orders just seems a bit shortsighted. People will just try to find another way to get an advantage, like in the GSL where supposedly the Koreans banded together and advised LotzePrime vs Idra. So then, people with a personal pro network have an advantage. I guess we'll have to put all the pros in isolated chambers x weeks prior to a tourney.
If you want to be secretive, that's what the fog of war is for. Just my 2 cents.
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This is pretty much what happens in online poker nowadays. There are so many sites you can go to to buy hand histories of whoever you search for. You can then import them into programs that analyze them and give you a myriad of stats relating to that player's tendencies that other players would likely not be privy to, thus (theoretically) giving you an unfair advantage. The only difference is that Blizzard supports it in Starcraft II because they built it into the system, whereas poker sites are trying to combat it.
Personally, I don't care about it in poker, but something should probably be done about it in Starcraft. I like the idea of disabling it in custom games, but not ladder, or at least limiting how many matches are kept in the visible match history. They would all be there for you obviously, but anyone viewing your profile would only be able to see the last 10 or so.
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On September 16 2010 05:19 moogleii wrote:
Seems like it would hurt the game more. Competitive games like chess and go have all the moves documented for the benefit of everyone. You learn and evolve. Hiding build orders just seems a bit shortsighted. People will just try to find another way to get an advantage, like in the GSL where supposedly the Koreans banded together and advised LotzePrime vs Idra. So then, people with a personal pro network have an advantage. I guess we'll have to put all the pros in isolated chambers x weeks prior to a tourney.
If you want to be secretive, that's what the fog of war is for. Just my 2 cents.
People have to realize that practicing for a tournament match such as the GSL doesn't involve laddering. You have several days to practice for a single best of 3. It's one matchup on certain maps. Why the heck would you waste your time on ladder where you won't be able to practice the matchup and maps all the time?
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On September 16 2010 05:19 moogleii wrote:
Seems like it would hurt the game more. Competitive games like chess and go have all the moves documented for the benefit of everyone. You learn and evolve. Hiding build orders just seems a bit shortsighted. People will just try to find another way to get an advantage, like in the GSL where supposedly the Koreans banded together and advised LotzePrime vs Idra. So then, people with a personal pro network have an advantage. I guess we'll have to put all the pros in isolated chambers x weeks prior to a tourney.
If you want to be secretive, that's what the fog of war is for. Just my 2 cents.
Chess is a bad example considering the hugely limited options in comparison and the fact everything is visible there is scouting in games in the first place. Here is a good example: SC1. Proteams practice only inhouse and practice specifically for tournaments. If you leak replays you'll possibly get kicked out, thats how serious it is.
Lets just make up a situation here. I make a new FE build for a tournament, now normally i want to make it as viable as possible so i want to practice against a teammate 20 times or whatever against every opening possible to see what works. But by yours and other peoples logic you think i have to force myself to practice many builds i have no intention of using just because its visible. This is clearly lowering the standard of play and completely pointless and a waste of time. There's nothing wrong with repeated practicing of the same thing, thats why BW is at such a high level today.
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United States4126 Posts
I think leaving the match history there is fine, it's the build order part that should have a hide option since that's really the most important part.
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The information in the match history is inline with the same concept of the Internet. Information should be available readily and easily for those that wish to learn & grow in whatever they are doing. The information contained in the match history seems to divulge critical information that competitive players seems unfair. However, the street is two ways and with a little homework you could prepare for what your opponent does in a tournament. In the case , where your on a pro team I would imagine you could just practice your tournament builds on your teammates/friend's acct and outsmart your opponents totally. It is through studying and adapting that a player improves, not making people waste time in finding what may be already in Vods or replays. Removing match history is about limiting access and denying and lobbitimizing knowledge rather than evolving new ways to attack and improve.
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EPT
