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Thought I would bring this up for re-discussion, as it has not been up for discussion for a while since beta...but this was a highly talked about thing beta and it's more important now.
The match history shows basically all of your games played, and worse yet - the build orders you have been doing, not only in ladder, but in your custom practice games as well.
What this means is b4 any tournament, you can look up your opponent, and study their build order, and know how they are most likely going to play, as well as know the possible counter deviation they may do.
It's pretty sickening. You could argue it's "great for casual players" that want to learn the game, but that logic is always faulty with RTS communities, as casual players don't have the understanding nor care enough to look at that type of thing in the first place.
So basically...match history makes it so that in every big tournament, once you know who you are about to play, you're going to search through their match history, look at their builds, and have a very good idea of the range of builds they're going to do.
If you want to smurf, you have to pay another 60 dollars to get a practice account, and since their are no chat channels, your practice partners would also have to pay the 60 bucks, add you, and do the same for custom games. You'd have to appear non-existent in the void that is bnet 2, and buying new accounts is the only way to do that.
Once one person knows your account, everyone else will. I personally think Blizzard should get rid of the match-history+build orders in the scorecard at the end of the games.
It's going to start ruining tournaments pretty soon, as it already is the GSL in some games. But it's a pretty big deal. That's just my personal opinion though.
What do other people think about this?
edit: just saw this minutes ago, but everyone/anyone that wants their privacy check this thread that teddyman made with maps he made that hide your builds:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120
edit: added poll:
Poll: Should blizzard get rid of match history/build order viewing?Make match history hideable (1185) 70% No (314) 18% Yes (199) 12% 1698 total votes Your vote: Should blizzard get rid of match history/build order viewing? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Make match history hideable
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:O i did not know this...
time to look up huk's profile XD
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I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
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We'll from a non-terran standpoint be glad that you have more than two viable builds.
I'd suggest expanding your play rather than exploiting racial matchups with units.
edit:
rofl wow, I didn't look at OP's race beforehand. s^ damn I'm gooodddd. ba da dum disssshhh
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They can keep the match history, but just get rid of the build order tab.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
I tend to agree, it's here to stay for sure. And a transparent system like this might alleviate some weirder stalkier attempts to gain information.
Also, as seen today against IdrA, it can even be used as a strategy itself to know that your enemy has been studying your BO. Another dimension of mind games going on.
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The ideal solution would be to have an option to turn match history on or off so the tournament players can turn it off. Personally I like looking at my opponents BO after a loss so I can see exactly what he did and learn from it.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
Horrible analogy. In sports you can study replays, just like you can in Starcraft.
You can study your opponent, what you're not allowed to do is go stalk your opponent in RL and show up at every one of their practice sessions.
You can study Federer and Nadal's play style and tendencies, and collect information, but you cannot go watch them personally practice with their coach 24/7.
In football, you get fined/penalized if you go and try and spy on other teams practices with a camera (that happened in recent years b4 superbowl or something)?
You can study that way, but if you want to make an analogy here, it's going to be closest that SC2 match history is like stalking/invading privacy and trying to go spy on someone's personal practice session with their coach.
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This thread is (mostly)irrelevant someone has made maps that hide your build orders. The really good players aren't laddering to prepare for a tournament.
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just don't show the private games imho
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match history/build orders arent the issue imo.
Its the fact that you cant have more than one I.D.
People in the gsl know eachother's build's because of pro players sharing information with eachother. And when your among the top 50 on the entire realm, you see the same players (the other 49 of the top 50) in ladder matches a lot. These players see eachother in ladder all the time, and when they dont, they know someone who did play them a lot. It is a lot more of sharing information among players than going to their profile and studying their build.
To let them practise would only require a second bnet Tag, and them just keeping their mouth shut and ducking their head down when they get noticed by other top players.
But even then, its going to happen anyways. In broodwar everyone studied their opponents replays/vods that were everywhere and that was before match history n such.
Scouting happens in EVERY sport. Wont be any different for e-sports.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
Using tennis as an example to this, scouting someone in tennis you might see something like, he has a strong forehand and likes to hit downtheline shots every few points. The differerence bewteen this and scouting someone in sc2 via match history is that you get the EXACT timings of everything he is going to do, going back to tennis here, if you knew what your opponent was going to do every point it would be a struggle to lose if you were around the same skill level.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
There was a big NFL scandal a few years ago about the patriots allegedly taping other teams' practice sessions before they played them.
Article 9 of the NFL Constitution & Bylaws states "any use by any club at any time, from the start to the finish of any game in which such club is a participant, of any communications or information-gathering equipment, other than Polaroid-type cameras or field telephones, shall be prohibited, including without limitation videotape machines, telephone tapping, or bugging devices, or any other form of electronic devices that might aid a team during the playing of a game."
It's a very bad thing.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
In football, you get fined/penalized if you go and try and spy on other teams practices with a camera (that happened in recent years b4 superbowl or something)?
It was the Pats that got caught doing it. They lost a draft pick IIRC.
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Nothing is stopping you from buying another account to practice on. If you think saving $60 is worth the risk of losing $85,000, something's wrong with you.
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On September 16 2010 03:11 Rumiah wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Using tennis as an example to this, scouting someone in tennis you might see something like, he has a strong forehand and likes to hit downtheline shots every few points. The differerence bewteen this and scouting someone in sc2 via match history is that you get the EXACT timings of everything he is going to do, going back to tennis here, if you knew what your opponent was going to do every point it would be a struggle to lose if you were around the same skill level.
Well i thought the pro players could vary their build orders? I rarely see a game where they go for the exact same build as the first game.
I'm also pretty sure that the pro players adapt their build to whatever their opponent is doing, and not just blindly go for the same build again and again. Everyone knows that IdrA is a macro player and likes to macro alot before he attacks. I dont see what's wrong with that. Trying to hide your build orders would also be very tricky, and kinda strange.
Also, i'd never go look up some build order that my opponent did, and just assume that they're going to use that against me, i'd be taking a huge chance.
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A public match history will result in shittier games.
Instead of focusing on the builds on certain maps consistently, perfecting their timings, learning the opponents timings into the relation of their build, we will see
1)Pros getting supply blocked more often
2)Worse macro and attack timings
3)Worse game sense that increases the strength of cheese
We had the technology 10 years ago, we just aren't there yet.
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On September 16 2010 03:14 Dionyseus wrote:
Nothing is stopping you from buying another account to practice on. If you think saving $60 is worth the risk of losing $85,000, something's wrong with you.
Except the fact that not all tournaments are going to get you a nice $85,000 for winning them. It'd just be easier to take the build order tab out like someone suggested or just get rid of match history all together.
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Better yet give players an option to disable match history or make it private if they choose to in thier account options or something along these lines.
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On September 16 2010 03:10 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Horrible analogy. In sports you can study replays, just like you can in Starcraft. You can study your opponent, what you're not allowed to do is go stalk your opponent in RL and show up at every one of their practice sessions. You can study Federer and Nadal's play style and tendencies, and collect information, but you cannot go watch them personally practice with their coach 24/7. In football, you get fined/penalized if you go and try and spy on other teams practices with a camera (that happened in recent years b4 superbowl or something)? You can study that way, but if you want to make an analogy here, it's going to be closest that SC2 match history is like stalking/invading privacy and trying to go spy on someone's personal practice session with their coach.
Worse analogy, the BO shows nothing you couldn't learn from watching replays, it's just a faster way of gaining that information.
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On September 16 2010 03:14 Dionyseus wrote:
Nothing is stopping you from buying another account to practice on. If you think saving $60 is worth the risk of losing $85,000, something's wrong with you.
Actually in korea there is since you have to sign up for an account with your government id similar to a US SSN if I understand correctly.
However for US/EU there is hope. By using these recently created maps that don't show build orders in the match history in custom games on your primary account with your practice partners and then by using a second account on which you only ladder and never play with practice partners you can approach anonymity. Still it seems like an awfully big hoop to jump through.
Being able to see the build order only if you have the replay would be a nice solution as the screen itself is pretty convenient for getting a birds eye view of the strategy without having to watch the game.
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On September 16 2010 03:22 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:10 avilo wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Horrible analogy. In sports you can study replays, just like you can in Starcraft. You can study your opponent, what you're not allowed to do is go stalk your opponent in RL and show up at every one of their practice sessions. You can study Federer and Nadal's play style and tendencies, and collect information, but you cannot go watch them personally practice with their coach 24/7. In football, you get fined/penalized if you go and try and spy on other teams practices with a camera (that happened in recent years b4 superbowl or something)? You can study that way, but if you want to make an analogy here, it's going to be closest that SC2 match history is like stalking/invading privacy and trying to go spy on someone's personal practice session with their coach. Worse analogy, the BO shows nothing you couldn't learn from watching replays, it's just a faster way of gaining that information.
So? If the someone REALLY wants to know what their opponent does, they will take the time to find their replays and study them. And even then, there will only be a select few, not their ENTIRE match list since they started with all their bo's and everything, which can and probably will hurt tournies untill something is taken care of.
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agree remove it...
its fine if u can see bo after the game so beginners still could learn from their opponents if they were raped but i guess on a prolvl the match history is too "strong"
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Easiest way is to have a privacy option to allow your build order to be seen by public or not. Or perhaps set it to only be shown to friends etc
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I completley agree. This will have adverse effect on the competative sc2 scene. Players wont get rewarded for coming up with new build orders when everyone can just copy+paste it immediatley. There should be an option to show/hide your history, it's a nobrainer really.
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I think we need to distinguish ladder from custom games too. In a sense laddering is a public thing so I'm not as bothered by the build orders being available, but custom games definitely should be much easier to turn off your build order for. Fortunately someone made custom maps for this, but it shouldn't even be that hard.
On a side note:
I think Idra benefited from this and was not net-harmed by it. I realize it creates a meta-meta-meta-meta-meta-game, but there were some koreans already sharing their replays of him from ladder which IMO is a much bigger advantage and can't be stopped by just turning off the build order button.
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The reason Blizzard will not likely get rid of this system is because of the same reason OP argued. "You will have to pay 60$ to get a new account, and your practice partners have to do the same...".
When has the prospect of losing money ever motivated a company to change something in an environment? I don't mean game makers, but every company out there is driven by profits, and more profits. It sure sucks you gotta play mindgames with opponents before you even play them, and possibly spend hours guessing thier ID #, which you will, eventually...
But I highly doubt Blizzard will fix/change this, it's throwing possible money down the toilet. As crazy as it sounds to regular people like us, companies can't afford to lose any amount of money to satisfy special interests, regardless of how many millions they make per/month.
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they should jus make match history available to only people on your friend list. the ones that actually know your name and not just your id code
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what are you people bitching about? you can find out peoples build orders just by watching them play, so whats the difference? Why are people so steamed? This doesnt make sense to me and i think you guys are making a build deal out of something very little. If you take away the build order screen, you can watch their replays like on their websites. Pros dont hide their build orders because a game isnt based on build orders. SC2 is a reactive game. You scout your opponent and react to what they do. You can study all my build orders man because i dont use the same BO two games in a row. But i also play random
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Agreed completely with OP, it has already affected the outcome, although not directly, of Torch's GSL games.
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On September 16 2010 03:22 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:10 avilo wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Horrible analogy. In sports you can study replays, just like you can in Starcraft. You can study your opponent, what you're not allowed to do is go stalk your opponent in RL and show up at every one of their practice sessions. You can study Federer and Nadal's play style and tendencies, and collect information, but you cannot go watch them personally practice with their coach 24/7. In football, you get fined/penalized if you go and try and spy on other teams practices with a camera (that happened in recent years b4 superbowl or something)? You can study that way, but if you want to make an analogy here, it's going to be closest that SC2 match history is like stalking/invading privacy and trying to go spy on someone's personal practice session with their coach. Worse analogy, the BO shows nothing you couldn't learn from watching replays, it's just a faster way of gaining that information.
Match history is available for anyone with a battle.net account. Replays are only available to the people that manage to find them/download them.
One can be hidden, the other cannot be. Think b4 you post.
aha, good stuff 
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Avilo is right and this feature has been a stupid idea since day 1 of beta when it was only the last 5 games or w/e it was
There is no argument to HAVE this, none at all. Just showing winner/loser in the match history is sufficient (and whether it was a custom or ladder game with the + points thing). build orders available for everyone to see is stupid, how often in pro BW did we ever get a professional replay? only when leaked did that ever happen and for a good reason
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
sc2 players need to do more than 1 build per map/mu ^_^
I pitty the fool that looks at my matchlist for ideas. I try and do 4-5 builds per matchup and more depending on the map.
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How is this different than, say, getting a whole bunch of recent replays of the player, and watching them?
I'd say, if anything, the match history build order thing isn't even as good as getting recent replays.
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+ Show Spoiler +Idra got meta-gamed last night lol
Such an upset, I'm guessing this is why this thread came back up.
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History in Ladder games is fine.
Just get rid of it in custom games to give pros a ground to test their stuff privately without having to buy another account.
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On September 16 2010 03:17 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:11 Rumiah wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Using tennis as an example to this, scouting someone in tennis you might see something like, he has a strong forehand and likes to hit downtheline shots every few points. The differerence bewteen this and scouting someone in sc2 via match history is that you get the EXACT timings of everything he is going to do, going back to tennis here, if you knew what your opponent was going to do every point it would be a struggle to lose if you were around the same skill level. Well i thought the pro players could vary their build orders? I rarely see a game where they go for the exact same build as the first game. I'm also pretty sure that the pro players adapt their build to whatever their opponent is doing, and not just blindly go for the same build again and again. Everyone knows that IdrA is a macro player and likes to macro alot before he attacks. I dont see what's wrong with that. Trying to hide your build orders would also be very tricky, and kinda strange. Also, i'd never go look up some build order that my opponent did, and just assume that they're going to use that against me, i'd be taking a huge chance.
Pro players obviously vary their build orders. The reason you dont see the same build twice in a row is due to maps having a massive input in which BO is played.
GSL spoilers.
+ Show Spoiler +As you mentioned IdrA, after the GSL today where game 1 and 2 were pretty much decided because of the fact idra knew the build Lotze would play on blistering, as that is the build he had practiced for that particular map vs idras macro style play. This would of been an extremely strong build vs idras normal macro style, but as idra knew the timings of when the push would come etc from checking the match history he reacted to these timings and won. Game 2 Lotze knew idra had sniped his 1 base collossus push and used that knowledge to voidray rush idra.
Based on this just because you wouldn't assume a build order being used against you doesn't mean that IdrA (a player that I can only presume is of higher caliber than you) wouldn't take the risk, as afterall Lotze also took the risk in game 2 by presuming IdrA would try to counter 1base collo.
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I agree
DOWN WITH THE MATCH HISTORY
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On September 16 2010 03:22 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:10 avilo wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Horrible analogy. In sports you can study replays, just like you can in Starcraft. You can study your opponent, what you're not allowed to do is go stalk your opponent in RL and show up at every one of their practice sessions. You can study Federer and Nadal's play style and tendencies, and collect information, but you cannot go watch them personally practice with their coach 24/7. In football, you get fined/penalized if you go and try and spy on other teams practices with a camera (that happened in recent years b4 superbowl or something)? You can study that way, but if you want to make an analogy here, it's going to be closest that SC2 match history is like stalking/invading privacy and trying to go spy on someone's personal practice session with their coach. Worse analogy, the BO shows nothing you couldn't learn from watching replays, it's just a faster way of gaining that information.
You are not taking into account custom games, where people are practicing. Replays aren't given out, either participant/obs has to give it, but BOs, everyone can see. I don't think people would generally care about build orders which they have been using publicly, rather the ones they have been practicing privately to catch their opponent off-guard.
Having to buy extra account for that is imo just BS.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
But you dont get to know what the person was doing during practice. This is a huge difference. Practice games should be private just like in any professional sport on earth.
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On September 16 2010 03:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
sc2 players need to do more than 1 build per map/mu ^_^
I pitty the fool that looks at my matchlist for ideas. I try and do 4-5 builds per matchup and more depending on the map.
well, all good SC2 players do have more than 1 build per map/mu...but wouldn't it be nice if you wanted to practice the fuck out of a specific build...to not have little johnny checking your match history right as he's about to play you in a tournament the next day ?
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ya this is pretty much pure garbage, i've hated it since the beta and was wondering when it was going to explode in a tourney.
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Disagree
If you are a one trick pony then you will be exposed and people will simply hard counter your little BO you perfected. This will help you in the long run as it will force you to adapt and learn some new things instead of doing the same thing
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Someone will eventually (soon) develop a crawler to go through all players match history and save it to a database. This can then be published online and next time I race Avilo (whom I know nothing off) I can easily look up his builds and tendencies.
I agree that sharing this information is emphasising the meta-game in a silly way.
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I'm sorry, but this is absurd. For the 1% of Starcraft players this would actually affect, they would have no problem paying for a smurf.
And anyway, that 1% should be expected to come into a tournament with more that one build per map/matchup. Starcraft champions should be creative, not machines that can do one build order on a map in a specific matchup.
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Avilo put up a poll you'll get extra feedback from people who don't like to post.
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Where is all that cool talk about scouting n stuff anyway?
If pros are beginning to blindly counter BOs used by their opponents on battle.net, then shame on them for losing.
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Have the option to make it private.
I agree that people in tournaments should prepare for their opponent in any way possible, but yesterday's GSL Set 1 game 2 was sort of a testament to how crappy games can get to if people rely solely on match history. Not to say it wasn't a smart play, but in the end it just wasn't too fun :\
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I *like* the match history tab. I try to find as many pro's divisions as possible and scope out their builds all the time. It has helped me immensely with opening tactics in certain matchups.
Now if only I could find DIMAGA's NA profile...
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I think many of you are missing a key point here:
Even if you know what build idra is going to do (I use him as the example because this thread is clearly about that game), unless you're actually good at the game you're still going to lose.
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On September 16 2010 03:38 BOOWOO wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is absurd. For the 1% of Starcraft players this would actually affect, they would have no problem paying for a smurf.
And anyway, that 1% should be expected to come into a tournament with more that one build per map/matchup. Starcraft champions should be creative, not machines that can do one build order on a map in a specific matchup.
If they are just doing 1 BO, if the opponent didn't know it before the match(like watching replays/VODs of him), then he will know it when he's 1 down in bo5 or w/e. I mean it might not be a huge deal, but the idea behind being able to basically watch over your opponent while he practices is a bit absurd imo.
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On September 16 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:Thought I would bring this up for re-discussion, as it has not been up for discussion for a while since beta...but this was a highly talked about thing beta and it's more important now. The match history shows basically all of your games played, and worse yet - the build orders you have been doing, not only in ladder, but in your custom practice games as well. What this means is b4 any tournament, you can look up your opponent, and study their build order, and know how they are most likely going to play, as well as know the possible counter deviation they may do. It's pretty sickening. You could argue it's "great for casual players" that want to learn the game, but that logic is always faulty with RTS communities, as casual players don't have the understanding nor care enough to look at that type of thing in the first place. So basically...match history makes it so that in every big tournament, once you know who you are about to play, you're going to search through their match history, look at their builds, and have a very good idea of the range of builds they're going to do. If you want to smurf, you have to pay another 60 dollars to get a practice account, and since their are no chat channels, your practice partners would also have to pay the 60 bucks, add you, and do the same for custom games. You'd have to appear non-existent in the void that is bnet 2, and buying new accounts is the only way to do that. Once one person knows your account, everyone else will. I personally think Blizzard should get rid of the match-history+build orders in the scorecard at the end of the games. It's going to start ruining tournaments pretty soon, as it already is the GSL in some games. But it's a pretty big deal. That's just my personal opinion though. What do other people think about this? edit: just saw this minutes ago, but everyone/anyone that wants their privacy check this thread that teddyman made with maps he made that hide your builds: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120
You know, this happens in football all the time. I don't see the coaches saying it's a problem. All teams study their opponents, so what? Besides, if you want you can make it an advantage, like the below post shows in the mentioned game.
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I think + Show Spoiler + showed just how badly trying to exploit this can backfire
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What's with everyone using the words "sickening" "disgusting" and "makes me want to vomit"(not a word, sue me), when describing video games?
Anyhow, I think it should be toggleable at most. The current implementation forces players to learn more than 1 build order so it should help in the long run.
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People are delirious if they think they can hide strategies/replays/match info in this day and age. If it wasn't listed in your match history, it'd be somewhere else. Unless you are only playing with a select group of friends who will not share any details, in which case, you'll really be limiting your knowledge base.
If you play any kind of public game, you can be assured the matches will be posted online somewhere. Especially so if you consider yourself worth being studied at all... the kinds of players who are good enough to study are the same ones who are scrutinized. You better believe that nearly every game Idra or TLO plays on ladder is recorded by someone.
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On September 16 2010 03:29 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:22 kmillz wrote:On September 16 2010 03:10 avilo wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Horrible analogy. In sports you can study replays, just like you can in Starcraft. You can study your opponent, what you're not allowed to do is go stalk your opponent in RL and show up at every one of their practice sessions. You can study Federer and Nadal's play style and tendencies, and collect information, but you cannot go watch them personally practice with their coach 24/7. In football, you get fined/penalized if you go and try and spy on other teams practices with a camera (that happened in recent years b4 superbowl or something)? You can study that way, but if you want to make an analogy here, it's going to be closest that SC2 match history is like stalking/invading privacy and trying to go spy on someone's personal practice session with their coach. Worse analogy, the BO shows nothing you couldn't learn from watching replays, it's just a faster way of gaining that information. Match history is available for anyone with a battle.net account. Replays are only available to the people that manage to find them/download them.
So the system we have now is more even and fair. Glad you are pointing that out.
System is good as it is now.
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Just add a an option to show/hide match history, it's very simple.
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On September 16 2010 03:39 Merikh wrote:
Avilo put up a poll you'll get extra feedback from people who don't like to post.
added a poll in OP
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Just remove custom games from the history.
Knowing what BO people use to top ladders should be enough information, and would also help players keep the exciting/innovative stuff for tournaments, by practicing in custom games.
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On September 16 2010 03:42 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:38 BOOWOO wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is absurd. For the 1% of Starcraft players this would actually affect, they would have no problem paying for a smurf.
And anyway, that 1% should be expected to come into a tournament with more that one build per map/matchup. Starcraft champions should be creative, not machines that can do one build order on a map in a specific matchup. If they are just doing 1 BO, if the opponent didn't know it before the match(like watching replays/VODs of him), then he will know it when he's 1 down in bo5 or w/e. I mean it might not be a huge deal, but the idea behind being able to basically watch over your opponent while he practices is a bit absurd imo.
It's not a huge deal at all. Like the poster above you said (great point), even if you know Idra's BO 100%, if you are an inferior player you're still going to lose.
And its not like this option isn't available to everyone. There's no unfair adavatage to anyone because of this system.
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Avilo, I have a general understanding of your concerns, but I just don't see it being the threat that you assume it to be. Considering someone of your skill level has a pretty refined idea of what kind of openings you're expecting from each race in each match up, I'd say practicing would do the player better rather then studying a general trend. Even if you understand what someone's build order is, if it's a fairly typical reaper opening for example, you know the times at which something comes out, but you don't understand the efficacy of each individual move the player makes. The mechanics are still missing, essentially it's just a spread sheet of information, it's not a distinct look into exactly how someone plays. Also, I'd imagine that most of the top tier players have a general knowledge of what kind of play they're expecting in a certain match up with a certain player.
I'm not saying that I'm right, I could very well be wrong as I don't participate in tournaments, not would I consider my self quite good enough to enter tournaments. But I think even knowing someone's build order wouldn't completely change an outcome, players of your skill level have too many openings, knowing about five or six of them wouldn't really avail them of anything.
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imo match history only needs to record your win/loss, your opponent, and the races. build orders shouldnt even be in it. they dont need your BO, your timing, your social security number, etc
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On September 16 2010 03:46 Decko wrote:
Avilo, I have a general understanding of your concerns, but I just don't see it being the threat that you assume it to be. Considering someone of your skill level has a pretty refined idea of what kind of openings you're expecting from each race in each match up, I'd say practicing would do the player better rather then studying a general trend. Even if you understand what someone's build order is, if it's a fairly typical reaper opening for example, you know the times at which something comes out, but you don't understand the efficacy of each individual move the player makes. The mechanics are still missing, essentially it's just a spread sheet of information, it's not a distinct look into exactly how someone plays. Also, I'd imagine that most of the top tier players have a general knowledge of what kind of play they're expecting in a certain match up with a certain player.
I'm not saying that I'm right, I could very well be wrong as I don't participate in tournaments, not would I consider my self quite good enough to enter tournaments. But I think even knowing someone's build order wouldn't completely change an outcome, players of your skill level have too many openings, knowing about five or six of them wouldn't really avail them of anything.
Having some information is always more than zero information.
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I think it should be like HoN where you can download replays from anyone's profile of every game they've played.
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So?? You could already look up vods and reps of your opponent if you're in a major tourny.
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Anyone who thinks open match history is a good idea should learn what a prepared build is and watch the ro32 for the GSL where this feature contributed to a pretty significant upset.
Again, there is no argument FOR this feature when you think of all the downsides to it. Defending something for the sake of simply having it vs voting to remove a feature that has clear downsides and no clear positive benefits for anyone...
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It's acceptable. I mean, in pro sports players spend hours or even days watching films of their upcoming opponents.
And, it works both ways. Yeah, the other guy can watch you play. But you can watch him play too.
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On September 16 2010 03:50 Elegy wrote:
Anyone who thinks open match history is a good idea should learn what a prepared build is and watch the ro32 for the GSL where this feature contributed to a pretty significant upset.
Again, there is no argument FOR this feature when you think of all the downsides to it. Defending something for the sake of simply having it vs voting to remove a feature that has clear downsides and no clear positive benefits for anyone...
I hope you're against replays and vods too then homie, cuz it's the exact same thing. Everyone from GSL is fairly known. There are reps and vods of those players available online for studying—and you get to see the build AND gameplay in those.
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On September 16 2010 03:50 Elegy wrote:
Anyone who thinks open match history is a good idea should learn what a prepared build is and watch the ro32 for the GSL where this feature contributed to a pretty significant upset.
Again, there is no argument FOR this feature when you think of all the downsides to it. Defending something for the sake of simply having it vs voting to remove a feature that has clear downsides and no clear positive benefits for anyone...
You mean where Idra saw his opponents prepared build order but then his opponent found out that Idra had seen his prepared build order so he switched it up?? Is that the "upset" you are referring to???
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A good build order works if the opponent knows it. People like White-Ra won a lot of tourneys when they had the wacky build orders that nobody knew, but look at him now. Had he spent more time working on solid builds rather than gimmick builds maybe he'd still be winning stuff.
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On September 16 2010 03:53 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:50 Elegy wrote:
Anyone who thinks open match history is a good idea should learn what a prepared build is and watch the ro32 for the GSL where this feature contributed to a pretty significant upset.
Again, there is no argument FOR this feature when you think of all the downsides to it. Defending something for the sake of simply having it vs voting to remove a feature that has clear downsides and no clear positive benefits for anyone... I hope you're against replays and vods too then homie, cuz it's the exact same thing. Everyone from GSL is fairly known. There are reps and vods of those players available online for studying—and you get to see the build AND gameplay in those.
I disagree, while VoDs and replays are available everywhere that doesn't mean that a player can't make and practice a certain finely tuned opening build specifically for an opponent before a major tournament. just because there are X number of, say, tester replays of him doing a certain build certainly doesn't mean that he can't specifically craft a build vs a specific opponent that he hasn't used or shown off in a tournament before but is then shown in the match history
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i dont see why people are for this?
yea other players can find vods and replays of their opponent but at least those arent recent.
its like your practicing for a match and your opponent is watching you every step of the way. its just dumb.
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On September 16 2010 03:53 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:50 Elegy wrote:
Anyone who thinks open match history is a good idea should learn what a prepared build is and watch the ro32 for the GSL where this feature contributed to a pretty significant upset.
Again, there is no argument FOR this feature when you think of all the downsides to it. Defending something for the sake of simply having it vs voting to remove a feature that has clear downsides and no clear positive benefits for anyone... I hope you're against replays and vods too then homie, cuz it's the exact same thing. Everyone from GSL is fairly known. There are reps and vods of those players available online for studying—and you get to see the build AND gameplay in those.
It's not the same thing at all. Match history/build order viewing is available to everyone right now with a bnet account.
Replays are only available if you find em, practice with certain people, or hand them out. Huge difference.
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I thought relying on surprise was what got you through bronze league? >.<
If all you have is one build that you always practice, you have bigger problems than people being able to see them.
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I can't believe that no one has mentioned the obvious: Enable LAN play.
Suddenly, you can play off-the-record games, under tournament conditions (since 'real' tournaments use the 'proffesional edition')
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Honestly, if you are playing at a level where you are in contention to win a pro tournament you would probably have at least 2 accounts anyways. There are new custom maps that remove the build order in the summary screen. I think there are more important issues that we need to push on Blizzard other then this.
It seems this was not even on the radar until Artosis and Tasteless told everyone Idra's training tricks. It won Idra the first game, but it very clearly lost him the second. Even if Idra had won the match, his next opponent would just do what Lotze did. I just don't think we will be seeing the abuse that we expect to come from this.
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yea I agree it should be removed, even though I enjoy searching IdrA's profile for Build orders XD
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Maybe Blizzard wants the meta game to be defined by sound strategy and solid builds instead of just trying to catch your opponent off-guard by throwing something wierd at them. I believe in game doing something that only works when your opponent has no knowledge of it is called cheese and is generally scorned. Why is this any different?
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so i cant rate ppl based on their points on the ladder, but now i cant rate ppl by looking at their bo's as well now? its not uncommon at all to think, huh. this guys got alot of points and then go to match history and find they 4 gate every matchup.
i think playing the custom maps is a better solution than disabling match history. playing ladder should remain public though, since everyone is competing against each other anyways.
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On September 16 2010 03:46 BOOWOO wrote:
It's not a huge deal at all. Like the poster above you said (great point), even if you know Idra's BO 100%, if you are an inferior player you're still going to lose.
And its not like this option isn't available to everyone. There's no unfair adavatage to anyone because of this system.
It just makes certain aspects worse than they have to be so I don't really see how it's good.
Builds evolves quite often in Starcraft, and they are not the same on every map, one day someone is gonna come up with a cool new build, do we as spectators really want to see the build get countered before it even get aired?
And if you are the one coming up with a new build on a certain map and practicing it for a tournament, do you really want your opponents to know it before you can perform it?
They don't need to get totally rid of them though, just allowing people to toggle it off in options somewhere, the casuals and other people who don't care wouldn't even bother to turn it off or even have any idea that they could.
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On September 16 2010 04:10 Ighox wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:46 BOOWOO wrote:
It's not a huge deal at all. Like the poster above you said (great point), even if you know Idra's BO 100%, if you are an inferior player you're still going to lose.
And its not like this option isn't available to everyone. There's no unfair adavatage to anyone because of this system. It just makes certain aspects worse than they have to be so I don't really see how it's good. Builds evolves quite often in Starcraft, and they are not the same on every map, one day someone is gonna come up with a cool new build, do we as spectators really want to see the build get countered before it even get aired? And if you are the one coming up with a new build on a certain map and practicing it for a tournament, do you really want your opponents to know it before you can perform it? They don't need to get totally rid of them though, just allowing people to toggle it off in options somewhere, the casuals and other people who don't care wouldn't even bother to turn it off or even have any idea that they could.
If it gets countered that fast, it was a bad build to begin with.
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People will find a way around it, even if it is using illegal software. And if enough people are using illegal software to get around a horrible feature then Blizzard should and probably would change it.
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Overall I think it is bad for the growth of SC2 as an ESPORT. If you can't develop a special build without it being know by your opponent we're going to get nothing but super standard play in tournaments. If tournaments become too predictable they'll get boring fast, people will lose interest and the scene will wither.
For me some of the best, most memorable BW games were upsets in which the underdog pulled off a perfectly timed nonstandard build. These kinds of games won't be happening with the build orders in the match history.
Two games that came to mind
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzDGNBKplVw
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the topic is misleading but i fixed for you:
+ Show Spoiler +blizzard needs to get rid of battlenet 0.2
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On September 16 2010 04:22 Piy wrote:
People will find a way around it, even if it is using illegal software. And if enough people are using illegal software to get around a horrible feature then Blizzard should and probably would change it.
Or just ban the users.
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if your a pro to where this really matters.... you will already have youtube videos, vods, streams etc that they can study even without your match history...
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Pretty sure the very game that brought this up supports the fact that there is no need to remove it. The Protoss WON because he did something ELSE. I don't see the issue here either.
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I'm surprised that no one mentioned the whole replay debacle from SC1 where BoxeR and the like were being vocal with knowledge gained from watching replays of other players and learning their builds. The main counter-point to this feature [Replays and now Build Order statistics] was that it was limiting creativity and rendering hours of preparing a build almost pointless because everyone could (and had) study it night and day. It seems to be the same story for SC2, now with it being possible to view the build order of a certain player in a certain match-up on a certain map.
Sure, the argument that 'knowing as much as you can about the other player' is the key role of the meta-game and that should make for a better player is true. But, think about how standard everything is when everyone is doing the same thing each game, which can be caused by the fact that someone has found such a good build/opening. (Sorry for the SC:BW references: Like Flash's 14cc into 2/1 or 2hatch muta).
From a fan/viewer point of view, the public Build Order tidbit can decrease the entertainment (read: excitement of something new)-- unless you like to watch the meta-game unfold (SC1 TvT, for instance.) From a 'professional' (read: anyone who tries to play at a competitive level) the Build Order bit can be a saving grace.. or such a disadvantage.
I think that the only way to view this data is if you actually played the game. If you have access to the replay, from first hand experience, you should have access to the statistics and whatnot. Otherwise, it should be private.
+ Show Spoiler [This kind of sounds philosophical..] +
My honest opinion on the matter: Replays shouldn't even be available, when everyone is in the dark then those who are the brightness shine the most. Oh wow.. I can't believe I said that, more cheesy than a pizza. Ugh, I need to stop.
But that is my two cents. I doubt Blizzard will make these changes since they were boasting on and on about the Observation enhancements and the statistics that were available from prior games to help people learn and get better.
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On September 16 2010 04:20 comis wrote:
If it gets countered that fast, it was a bad build to begin with.
Pretty much every surprise-build in history of both BW and SC2 so far has been easy to counter, that's not really the issue, point is people should be able to come up with surprise-builds for a specific map or another non-standard build without having it spoiled before they even use it.
Do you think it took a long time for people to figure out possible counters to PvZ FE on LT/Steppes/Metal?
It was pretty much done in the first game someone fast expanded, yet it's still a great build so your argument doesn't even work.
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OK, I understand that I'm a Gold player & completely unworthy in many's eyes to comment, but this whole discussion is a giant pile of bullshit that doesn't matter in the end.
If anything, scouting BO's has just been demonstrated to be not onbly ineffective, but downright dangerous to sit back & rely upon. IdrA, love him or hate him, got fucking worked in Game 2 because he used his BO scouting to make an assumption & didn't even seem to think that his opponent could just...do something else entirely. THis strategy, and its underlying "flaw" that we're all discussing right now...isn't worth shit to use. It promotes lazy behavior, which is obviously not the way to win a tourney.
The only reason that this is an issue right now, bottom line, is because a bunch of us westerners are butthurt because our "greatest player" or "biggest villian" (depending on your point of view) is now out of a major tourny. Well seriously, bottom line, in my opinion...tough shit for IdrA. He tried to use a player scouting option available, and got suprise-fucked for it.
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tbh players that are relying on match history if your opponent thinks thats what you do for tournaments you can trick your opponent into thinking this is what your going to do but you really do something else.
Idra vs lotze is a great example. Idra looked at his opponents match history and saw what he does on Lost temple for instance. He figured he knew so he didn't really scout as good as he could have to see there were like no units coming out and thats why void rays killed him.
Lotze tricked Idra pretty good because Idra thought he "knew" what he was doing due to this match history. While I don't like the build order tab either I don't think players should rely on it as I think more players are just going to use that to their advantage with their opponent thinking they know what they are doing.
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Like I said in other thread, Like in steam community there is the option to hide the profile.
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They just need to allow private custom games.
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If you are playing competitively, I really think it is better to have two account. One for practice and the other for laddering or tournament.
BTW I heard idra lost 2nd game of today because his opponent find out idra was practicing against what he was going to do on that game, so that he used VR instead of colossi that he was practicing. Of course both player used this match history, but idra's opponent used it better.
I am not critizing anyone nor Blizzard who made this thing. It is really helpful to review your game and analyze your opponent who you are going to face, if you know the value of this system.
So, just take advantage! That's all im saying
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On September 16 2010 04:29 PeRk wrote:
Pretty sure the very game that brought this up supports the fact that there is no need to remove it. The Protoss WON because he did something ELSE. I don't see the issue here either.
It's still hard to practice for a match because in the back of your head you're thinking "my opponent may be able to see what I'm practicing." I don't get why you guys want to deal with this. Just give the option to hide the match history or at least the build order.
tbh players that are relying on match history if your opponent thinks thats what you do for tournaments you can trick your opponent into thinking this is what your going to do but you really do something else.
Idra vs lotze is a great example. Idra looked at his opponents match history and saw what he does on Lost temple for instance. He figured he knew so he didn't really scout as good as he could have to see there were like no units coming out and thats why void rays killed him.
Lotze tricked Idra pretty good because Idra thought he "knew" what he was doing due to this match history. While I don't like the build order tab either I don't think players should rely on it as I think more players are just going to use that to their advantage with their opponent thinking they know what they are doing.
wouldn't it be better to not just have to deal with someone being able to look at your match history? You people are trying to figure out ways to "counter" people looking at your match history. Why not just remove the entire thing? It'd make it much easier.
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1. most big players/ tournaments are streamed or have vod's available. Every pro game in SCBW is available for everyone to study and that hasn't "ruined" the game whatsoever.
2. if you have the same opening build order so frequently that your opponent will have a sizable advantage from knowing this than you probably need to be able to vary your play. They would know your opening just from scouting and if you know they aren't scouting because they are assuming your are going a certain build than you should easily be able to respond and punish this. Even if you opened up 14 hatch 80% of the time but went like 7 pool 5% of the time your opponent would not be able to counter you with confidence.
3. match history is available for both parties and if you are getting good enough to enter high level tournaments where this minor 'advantage' is what is going to decide the match then their will probably be enough people talking about you to give your opponent a sense of what you favor anyhow.
4. The build order only shows the first few minutes of what your BO is. The only reason this should make difference is if you have a very specific, nonstandard opening you are planning to do vs a specific MU or opponent. If this is the case you should just practice in something like YABOT, use a friends account, or buy another copy. If you need this element of surprise to give you the advantage you are essentially cheesing and he same argument you opened with can be used because you are relying on something other than your own skill and decision making to win the game.
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Blizzard needs to in your view.
But they certainly don't want to and won't.
Why would they get rid of a feature that generates more $$$?
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On September 16 2010 04:48 thundertoss wrote:
1. most big players/ tournaments are streamed or have vod's available. Every pro game in SCBW is available for everyone to study and that hasn't "ruined" the game whatsoever.
2. if you have the same opening build order so frequently that your opponent will have a sizable advantage from knowing this than you probably need to be able to vary your play. They would know your opening just from scouting and if you know they aren't scouting because they are assuming your are going a certain build than you should easily be able to respond and punish this. Even if you opened up 14 hatch 80% of the time but went like 7 pool 5% of the time your opponent would not be able to counter you with confidence.
3. match history is available for both parties and if you are getting good enough to enter high level tournaments where this minor 'advantage' is what is going to decide the match then their will probably be enough people talking about you to give your opponent a sense of what you favor anyhow.
4. The build order only shows the first few minutes of what your BO is. The only reason this should make difference is if you have a very specific, nonstandard opening you are planning to do vs a specific MU or opponent. If this is the case you should just practice in something like YABOT, use a friends account, or buy another copy. If you need this element of surprise to give you the advantage you are essentially cheesing and he same argument you opened with can be used because you are relying on something other than your own skill and decision making to win the game.
You probably don't realize this, but people don't play each match (especially a tournament match) the same. Players prepare certain builds for a certain game in a tournament match.
I really don't understand why people are supporting this feature. It's been a problem since beta (I remember an incident where a T player knew that his opponent was going to 8rax and he just 10rax'd and won outright)
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I think you should only be able to see build orders of real id friends and your own games.
Nothing wrong with match history, just certain information in certain situations should be blocked
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On September 16 2010 04:52 Stropheum wrote:
I think you should only be able to see build orders of real id friends and your own games.
Nothing wrong with match history, just certain information in certain situations should be blocked
You think people who are real id friends can never meet in a match in an important tournament?
If anything, just have the build order available only in the score screen after the game is played. Don't let it be seen when accessed with the match history.
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I like how the 2 players that we know was studying BO's got burned by doing so :p
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Deal with it. If you want to compete big, you gotta prepare to put it all down. NFL teams do this all the time; many teams will spend the entire Tuesday breaking down every play the opposing team made in their last few games. In CS, all demos from all players are available from matches; if you were so inclined you could watch 15+ hours of demos for the team you'll play next week.
It sounds more like you don't want your 1-trick pony to be discovered than an actual issue. In all professional sports (electronic or otherwise), you have the opportunity to game your opponent. SC2 is no different.
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i think its fine for laddergames. customgames are another story and i agree that it would be really good to get rid of it
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Kind of touching on what incontrol said.. no one at the level that *would* be hiding there bo's should have only one way to play that matchup.. therefor I am pretty certain that this is not a featured that is needed to be taken out of the game (at this point of the game that is).
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On September 16 2010 03:38 BOOWOO wrote:
I'm sorry, but this is absurd. For the 1% of Starcraft players this would actually affect, they would have no problem paying for a smurf.
And anyway, that 1% should be expected to come into a tournament with more that one build per map/matchup. Starcraft champions should be creative, not machines that can do one build order on a map in a specific matchup.
So is Flash bad because he practices a specific build for a specific game in a BO5? Don't be stupid please.
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I think that matches history shouldnt be visible for pro league players.
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On September 16 2010 05:04 0mar wrote:
Deal with it. If you want to compete big, you gotta prepare to put it all down. NFL teams do this all the time; many teams will spend the entire Tuesday breaking down every play the opposing team made in their last few games. In CS, all demos from all players are available from matches; if you were so inclined you could watch 15+ hours of demos for the team you'll play next week.
It sounds more like you don't want your 1-trick pony to be discovered than an actual issue. In all professional sports (electronic or otherwise), you have the opportunity to game your opponent. SC2 is no different.
Yes, but knowing all the hail mary's your opponent has been practicing behind closed doors isn't very interesting either.
In sports lingo, it's not about going through all the opponents players, checking their strengths/weaknesses nor checking out every single game they have played, it is about sending someone to watch your opponent practice.
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On September 16 2010 05:04 0mar wrote:
Deal with it. If you want to compete big, you gotta prepare to put it all down. NFL teams do this all the time; many teams will spend the entire Tuesday breaking down every play the opposing team made in their last few games. In CS, all demos from all players are available from matches; if you were so inclined you could watch 15+ hours of demos for the team you'll play next week.
It sounds more like you don't want your 1-trick pony to be discovered than an actual issue. In all professional sports (electronic or otherwise), you have the opportunity to game your opponent. SC2 is no different.
This isn't like an NFL team watching game footage of a previous game. This is like an NFL team knowing what a team is practicing during their weekly practices. The NFL didn't like the Patriots doing this, you know...
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On September 16 2010 05:04 0mar wrote:
Deal with it. If you want to compete big, you gotta prepare to put it all down. NFL teams do this all the time; many teams will spend the entire Tuesday breaking down every play the opposing team made in their last few games. In CS, all demos from all players are available from matches; if you were so inclined you could watch 15+ hours of demos for the team you'll play next week.
It sounds more like you don't want your 1-trick pony to be discovered than an actual issue. In all professional sports (electronic or otherwise), you have the opportunity to game your opponent. SC2 is no different.
Wow how do people not get this. You know its ILLEGAL to record opponents practice for NFL right? No one cares if you can watch previous games. You should be able to practice your builds for a particularly tournament secretly, there is literally no reason that should be viewable by anyone.
People said on and on about how great it is that Starcraft 2 will be more strategy focused and innovative, now you want to throw that out of the window and have people play on-the-fly incase their smart builds were found out?
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yeah it's funny when these people who have no idea how much preparation goes into a tournament match just say "deal with it."
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match history bastardizes customs and hiding it would make the process a lot more painless.
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Seems like it would hurt the game more. Competitive games like chess and go have all the moves documented for the benefit of everyone. You learn and evolve. Hiding build orders just seems a bit shortsighted. People will just try to find another way to get an advantage, like in the GSL where supposedly the Koreans banded together and advised LotzePrime vs Idra. So then, people with a personal pro network have an advantage. I guess we'll have to put all the pros in isolated chambers x weeks prior to a tourney.
If you want to be secretive, that's what the fog of war is for. Just my 2 cents.
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This is pretty much what happens in online poker nowadays. There are so many sites you can go to to buy hand histories of whoever you search for. You can then import them into programs that analyze them and give you a myriad of stats relating to that player's tendencies that other players would likely not be privy to, thus (theoretically) giving you an unfair advantage. The only difference is that Blizzard supports it in Starcraft II because they built it into the system, whereas poker sites are trying to combat it.
Personally, I don't care about it in poker, but something should probably be done about it in Starcraft. I like the idea of disabling it in custom games, but not ladder, or at least limiting how many matches are kept in the visible match history. They would all be there for you obviously, but anyone viewing your profile would only be able to see the last 10 or so.
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On September 16 2010 05:19 moogleii wrote:
Seems like it would hurt the game more. Competitive games like chess and go have all the moves documented for the benefit of everyone. You learn and evolve. Hiding build orders just seems a bit shortsighted. People will just try to find another way to get an advantage, like in the GSL where supposedly the Koreans banded together and advised LotzePrime vs Idra. So then, people with a personal pro network have an advantage. I guess we'll have to put all the pros in isolated chambers x weeks prior to a tourney.
If you want to be secretive, that's what the fog of war is for. Just my 2 cents.
People have to realize that practicing for a tournament match such as the GSL doesn't involve laddering. You have several days to practice for a single best of 3. It's one matchup on certain maps. Why the heck would you waste your time on ladder where you won't be able to practice the matchup and maps all the time?
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On September 16 2010 05:19 moogleii wrote:
Seems like it would hurt the game more. Competitive games like chess and go have all the moves documented for the benefit of everyone. You learn and evolve. Hiding build orders just seems a bit shortsighted. People will just try to find another way to get an advantage, like in the GSL where supposedly the Koreans banded together and advised LotzePrime vs Idra. So then, people with a personal pro network have an advantage. I guess we'll have to put all the pros in isolated chambers x weeks prior to a tourney.
If you want to be secretive, that's what the fog of war is for. Just my 2 cents.
Chess is a bad example considering the hugely limited options in comparison and the fact everything is visible there is scouting in games in the first place. Here is a good example: SC1. Proteams practice only inhouse and practice specifically for tournaments. If you leak replays you'll possibly get kicked out, thats how serious it is.
Lets just make up a situation here. I make a new FE build for a tournament, now normally i want to make it as viable as possible so i want to practice against a teammate 20 times or whatever against every opening possible to see what works. But by yours and other peoples logic you think i have to force myself to practice many builds i have no intention of using just because its visible. This is clearly lowering the standard of play and completely pointless and a waste of time. There's nothing wrong with repeated practicing of the same thing, thats why BW is at such a high level today.
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United States4126 Posts
I think leaving the match history there is fine, it's the build order part that should have a hide option since that's really the most important part.
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The information in the match history is inline with the same concept of the Internet. Information should be available readily and easily for those that wish to learn & grow in whatever they are doing. The information contained in the match history seems to divulge critical information that competitive players seems unfair. However, the street is two ways and with a little homework you could prepare for what your opponent does in a tournament. In the case , where your on a pro team I would imagine you could just practice your tournament builds on your teammates/friend's acct and outsmart your opponents totally. It is through studying and adapting that a player improves, not making people waste time in finding what may be already in Vods or replays. Removing match history is about limiting access and denying and lobbitimizing knowledge rather than evolving new ways to attack and improve.
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On September 16 2010 03:17 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:11 Rumiah wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. Using tennis as an example to this, scouting someone in tennis you might see something like, he has a strong forehand and likes to hit downtheline shots every few points. The differerence bewteen this and scouting someone in sc2 via match history is that you get the EXACT timings of everything he is going to do, going back to tennis here, if you knew what your opponent was going to do every point it would be a struggle to lose if you were around the same skill level. Well i thought the pro players could vary their build orders? I rarely see a game where they go for the exact same build as the first game. I'm also pretty sure that the pro players adapt their build to whatever their opponent is doing, and not just blindly go for the same build again and again. Everyone knows that IdrA is a macro player and likes to macro alot before he attacks. I dont see what's wrong with that. Trying to hide your build orders would also be very tricky, and kinda strange. Also, i'd never go look up some build order that my opponent did, and just assume that they're going to use that against me, i'd be taking a huge chance.
Exactly. And you guys talk like pro tennis players will watch a 15 tape of an opponent and that's it. On world-class levels, they do everything they can. Analyze walking patterns, ball speeds, amount of effect etc. And yet they cannot find out everything, just like in SC. Granted, I know more about football(soccer) than tennis but these guys do just as much as you can in SC.
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my exact thoughts when I was watching the GSL hearing about what was going on with replays was "they NEED to make match history hide-able"
funny how being a poor sport comes back to bite you in the ass though, haha. only thing is I bet Idra didn't know Lotze had some of his replays whereas Lotze probably predicted Idra stealing all his
(could be wrong, just my humble guess)
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Match history is great, the fact that it's show your BO is bad
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This topic was beaten to DEATH during the beta. The spread of information and build orders in this case is never a bad thing. It helps the game evolve quicker and on a constant rotation. It also makes the endgame of SC2 better considering it will come down to the player that makes the best decisions in the game and not who figured out cheesy build #506 and used it all the way to $85K. Watching an OP build be used and then see it get countered the next time it comes up is a beautiful thing.
Idra got hosed last night because he decided to rely on a match history and his opponent completely faked him out if what Artosis says is true. This is no different than if Idra went into last nights games and 6 pooled twice cause his opponent was expecting to have long macro games. Again the spread of information is never a bad thing, it only helps strengthen the game in the long run.
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It seems like nearly every argument against build orders in the match history is based on the premise that only one of the two players involved will use it. What specifically makes this feature bad for tournament games from a compedative or a spectative standpoint assuming, more logically, that everyone is doing it?
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I'd sooner have it that you have the option to hide custom games, not ladder. I feel ladder you shouldn't be able to hide, but if you're practicing for a tourney you're most likely playing customs because you're practicing one MU on certain maps. In that case, have hte option to hide BO/match history completely on customs only. Which is not in your poll options.
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They should just give you an option to hide the details. Make it so you can see the match history but not click on it to get the game stats like build order and the unit graphs.
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Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over.
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On September 16 2010 05:41 Hrrrrm wrote:
This topic was beaten to DEATH during the beta. The spread of information and build orders in this case is never a bad thing. It helps the game evolve quicker and on a constant rotation. It also makes the endgame of SC2 better considering it will come down to the player that makes the best decisions in the game and not who figured out cheesy build #506 and used it all the way to $85K. Watching an OP build be used and then see it get countered the next time it comes up is a beautiful thing.
Idra got hosed last night because he decided to rely on a match history and his opponent completely faked him out if what Artosis says is true. This is no different than if Idra went into last nights games and 6 pooled twice cause his opponent was expecting to have long macro games. Again the spread of information is never a bad thing, it only helps strengthen the game in the long run.
I'm just shocked how many people believe this. How does it strengthen the game if you can't secretly practice the same thing over and over? Repetition is how people get better, not having to worry about a stupid unnecessary metagame in hiding what you are really trying to practice. It's not about cheesy builds either, just any build that you want to refine you can't do that currently, at least with a known account.
On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over.
What the fuck? Do any of you even read the thread? Over and over again its been repeated, you cannot see practice of your opponents in real sports either and in some it's even a crime to try and do it. The SC2 forum is a joke, just tons and tons of people posting in threads without reading or responding to anything just giving a bad opinion then leaving.
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On September 16 2010 05:48 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 05:41 Hrrrrm wrote:
This topic was beaten to DEATH during the beta. The spread of information and build orders in this case is never a bad thing. It helps the game evolve quicker and on a constant rotation. It also makes the endgame of SC2 better considering it will come down to the player that makes the best decisions in the game and not who figured out cheesy build #506 and used it all the way to $85K. Watching an OP build be used and then see it get countered the next time it comes up is a beautiful thing.
Idra got hosed last night because he decided to rely on a match history and his opponent completely faked him out if what Artosis says is true. This is no different than if Idra went into last nights games and 6 pooled twice cause his opponent was expecting to have long macro games. Again the spread of information is never a bad thing, it only helps strengthen the game in the long run. I'm just shocked how many people believe this. How does it strengthen the game if you can't secretly practice the same thing over and over? Repetition is how people get better, not having to worry about a stupid unnecessary metagame in hiding what you are really trying to practice. It's not about cheesy builds either, just any build that you want to refine you can't do that currently, at least with a known account. Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over. What the fuck? Do any of you even read the thread? Over and over again its been repeated, you cannot see practice of your opponents in real sports either and in some it's even a crime to try and do it. The SC2 forum is a joke, just tons and tons of people posting in threads without reading or responding to anything just giving a bad opinion then leaving.
Precisely, and there's also a huge difference between sports scouting and the kind you can do with sc2 i.e. seeing the exact build order because you could never quantify sports play to such a precise degree. You get to now at which second your opponent builds what and it's mapped out to in almost scientific precision so anyone can copy it.
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sc2 is a reactive game. looking at the BO tab doesn't give you the big picture. He might be building unit X because he scouted opponent building unit Y. He built 4 gateways because he wanted to give the scouting enemy wrong information.
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Hide custom games is fine. Ladder should be open and viewable to all in my opinion 
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On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over.
I'm flabbergasted that people keep comparing this to professional sports. In no professional sport can somebody get detailed information on an opponent's private practice. Please stop using faulty comparisons like this. Replays/vods can be totally different than what a player does in private practices. For example a college football team can practice a gimmick play to use in a huge game. If the opponent had knowledge of this, they would expect it and all hopes of that gimmick play succeeding would be nullified.
Plenty of players will develop a specific build vs a specific opponent on a specific map. A huge part of a lot these builds is the element of surprise, which with match history is nullified. No professional player who actually cares about winning would release all his replays of his private practice games to an opponent.
Yes scouting can be beneficial to esports to an extent, which is why replays/vods exist. But to have NOTHING private versus an opponent is a ludicrous notion in any professional sport requiring complex strategies and planning. Do you think Lakers would let the Celtics sit in on their practices?
Make build orders hideable in match history and tada its solved.
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oh noes! everybody can now look at OP and see that he only 6pools....
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The argument for hiding match histories sounds like when poker players were worried about having their hole cards exposed on TV and online players didn't like that tables could be data-mined for hand histories. The idea was that the mystique would be shattered and the top secret strategies would be revealed, ruining the game in the process. Yet, poker's popularity and the metagame both exploded because there are no secrets *that* large in poker.
Does this argument against hiding hold for SC2 as well? What if I know my opponent is preparing for me preparing for him? What if he knows I know that too!? Are we both going to double switch-up our build orders? Now all of a sudden the match histories become a very small piece of the bigger metagame picture... which is fairly cool and makes strategy games better.
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On September 16 2010 06:11 tpir wrote:
The argument for hiding match histories sounds like when poker players were worried about having their hole cards exposed on TV and online players didn't like that tables could be data-mined for hand histories. The idea was that the mystique would be shattered and the top secret strategies would be revealed, ruining the game in the process. Yet, poker's popularity and the metagame both exploded because there are no secrets *that* large in poker.
Does this argument against hiding hold for SC2 as well? What if I know my opponent is preparing for me preparing for him? What if he knows I know that too!? Are we both going to double switch-up our build orders? Now all of a sudden the match histories become a very small piece of the bigger metagame picture... which is fairly cool and makes strategy games better.
gold star post man
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On September 16 2010 06:08 binary25 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over. I'm flabbergasted that people keep comparing this to professional sports. In no professional sport can somebody get detailed information on an opponent's private practice. Please stop using faulty comparisons like this. Replays/vods can be totally different than what a player does in private practices. For example a college football team can practice a gimmick play to use in a huge game. If the opponent had knowledge of this, they would expect it and all hopes of that gimmick play succeeding would be nullified. Plenty of players will develop a specific build vs a specific opponent on a specific map. A huge part of a lot these builds is the element of surprise, which with match history is nullified. No professional player who actually cares about winning would release all his replays of his private practice games to an opponent. Yes scouting can be beneficial to esports to an extent, which is why replays/vods exist. But to have NOTHING private versus an opponent is a ludicrous notion in any professional sport requiring complex strategies and planning. Do you think Lakers would let the Celtics sit in on their practices? Make build orders hideable in match history and tada its solved.
Or that college team can leak the trick play and fake it on the field that they are doing it and run a different route and trick his opponent. Which Lotze did to Idra. It works both ways.
Just like working on a build to use on your opponent, people will start practicing builds and then completely do a different one to trick their opponent. If their opponent is dumb enough to completely rely on match history they deserve to lose. The possibilities are endless and the BEST thing to do in the end is just to work on YOUR game and adapt to what you scout. Ultimately that's what it's going to come down to.
Edit: Tpir pretty much hit the nail on the head.
On September 16 2010 06:11 tpir wrote:
The argument for hiding match histories sounds like when poker players were worried about having their hole cards exposed on TV and online players didn't like that tables could be data-mined for hand histories. The idea was that the mystique would be shattered and the top secret strategies would be revealed, ruining the game in the process. Yet, poker's popularity and the metagame both exploded because there are no secrets *that* large in poker.
Does this argument against hiding hold for SC2 as well? What if I know my opponent is preparing for me preparing for him? What if he knows I know that too!? Are we both going to double switch-up our build orders? Now all of a sudden the match histories become a very small piece of the bigger metagame picture... which is fairly cool and makes strategy games better.
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Make match history hideable. This. I agree with most of the people that match history sohuldn't be seen.
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But then you're encouraging people to practice things they never intend to use?? How is that a good thing? Jesus christ this is stupid.
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Starcraft isn't just a sport, it's a science
what if you had to share every single experiment you made as it happened, then when you try you publish the final result, everyone already knows about it and you get no credit for discovering something new and no one is surprised
my attempt at an analogy, hopefully it's a good one
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On September 16 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:
What this means is b4 any tournament, you can look up your opponent, and study their build order, and know how they are most likely going to play, as well as know the possible counter deviation they may do.
This is not true, What it imeans is you can look at your opponent and see what he practiced in the past, not what he will do in the future.
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The problem with the "in other sports" argument is that training tapes arent made public. Watching tape on your opponent is more like watching vods of tournament matches. (Replays already push it past the analogy, but atleast replays have a huge upside). This is more like getting the security cam vids of your opponents training camp, or their training logs. In sc2 , you are always training in a public, logged environment.
The issue is not with players studying their opponents, it is the lack of privacy to experiment and develop surprise builds. At minimum, custom games should not be logged.
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On September 16 2010 06:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
But then you're encouraging people to practice things they never intend to use?? How is that a good thing? Jesus christ this is stupid.
Who said about NEVER intending to use? You might not use it against that specific opponent but later on. Lotze did the same build on Lost Temple which Idra saw his match history for and he completely changed it up and worked out for him. Guess he's a dumbass.
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Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that.
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On September 16 2010 06:30 R3d wrote:
Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that.
people that have no idea how high level play works are so funny
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what it boils down to is the build order thing is a great disadvantage to certain types of players (like idra).
say you are zerg and you are going to face a protoss. you literally watch every pvz hes ever played and notice that he has never ever 2 gated in his life (any map). This gives you a sense of security that would otherwise never be possible, as you can probably 14 pool 15 hatch or even hatch first. Either what you can do as that protoss player is try and mindgame the zerg and do a 2 gate (which you have never practiced and cannot practice on your account without the zerg player seeing it) or you can just try and do a build that counters whatever you see the zerg doing regularly. It makes players who do crazy shit even more dangerous because not only can u not tell what they will do, but they have an even better idea of how to counter a player with a more predictable, solid style. there should definitely be a way to set match history to private or just remove the build order tab in general (although seeing the length of game history can be dumb too)
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On September 16 2010 06:28 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
But then you're encouraging people to practice things they never intend to use?? How is that a good thing? Jesus christ this is stupid. Who said about NEVER intending to use? You might not use it against that specific opponent but later on. Lotze did the same build on Lost Temple which Idra saw his match history for and he completely changed it up and worked out for him. Guess he's a dumbass.
But this should not even be a fucking element to consider in the first place! If you want to practice 100 games with the same build order on same map why can't you... there is already mindgames in play just by knowing your opponents style and good game sense (see: Flash vs Jaedong OSL finals), you don't need this completely unnecessary metagame involved at all, practice replays in BW were guarded for good reason. Every single competitive player will say they want to hide build orders in custom games, every one of them.
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It adds for very interesting metagame. The ability to affect your opponent's build by having your match history shown, is just awesome. There's no reason you can't put their spy tactic to work against them. + Show Spoiler +Torch's games, and Idra's game two just shows how you can use it against them.
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It's kinda sad that blizzard didn't realize how bad this would be. Hopefully they allow you to hide at least custom game build orders.
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who cares if you can study your opponent? What do you think professional boxers do, what do you think professionals of any sport do? Thats right they watch recordings of their opponents, effectively the replays, match history sharing is something that will help the game evolve faster, and smoother, I am sorry you feel you can't adapt and need to rely on a "super secret strat" get over it.
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On September 16 2010 06:30 R3d wrote:
Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that.
It makes for boring games.
I'd rather see two top players go against each other using true skill instead of mind games to win.
When two NFL teams play; sure they have film to study and exploit weaknesses of their opponents game. But the NFL game doesn't end if three void rays fly over the stadium for one play.
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The problem is that
1) People will simply buy other accounts to bypass this if they are dedicated enough, making it unfair for some players who don't wish to shell out money and can't see opposing build orders
2) People can't construct specific builds for specific maps. Remember when we saw an 8 rax 8 refin 8 fact (which failed, but cool nonetheless) build? Yeah, shit like that would NEVER be seen. Is it cheesy? Yes. But innovative. And that shit needs practice and timing to figure things out.
Sure, you can pretend you're going to do that build and then do another different one, but then you never got to use the build you originally intended. How lame is that.
I'm going to reiterate what I originally proposed. Have an option to block all info for custom games only.
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On September 16 2010 06:51 Retsukage wrote:
who cares if you can study your opponent? What do you think professional boxers do, what do you think professionals of any sport do? Thats right they watch recordings of their opponents, effectively the replays, match history sharing is something that will help the game evolve faster, and smoother, I am sorry you feel you can't adapt and need to rely on a "super secret strat" get over it.
you obviously do not understand the actual problem here...
let's use a BW analogy: you're talking about someone watching a VOD of a proleague match to study. The match history/build order thing is like Flash going into Hwaseung Oz's practice house and seeing all the builds Jaedong is doing in preparation for their OSL finals.
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wtf does it matter in a few years ALL BUILD ORDERS WILL BE ON LIQUIPEDIA!
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Get rid? Are you kidding me? Removing a feature like that would be straight up idiotic. Allowing people to turn it off is the farthest I'd allow.
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I definitely agree with making it hide-able. Leave it on by default and toggle hide should you desire. Full support on that.
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On September 16 2010 06:52 Mutarisk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:30 R3d wrote:
Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that. It makes for boring games. I'd rather see two top players go against each other using true skill instead of mind games to win. When two NFL teams play; sure they have film to study and exploit weaknesses of their opponents game. But the NFL game doesn't end if three void rays fly over the stadium for one play.
There are shut outs in NFL games though. Who knows how many of those are due to studying game film.
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On September 16 2010 03:09 Aeyn wrote:
They can keep the match history, but just get rid of the build order tab.
agreed. as long as the build order could be hidden or removed i'm all for it. match history--win, loss is fine but the build order is so important to pro players, revealing this just hampers any ladder play for any competitive gamer. And they shouldn't be bereft of any ladder action!
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On September 16 2010 06:53 FabledIntegral wrote:
The problem is that
1) People will simply buy other accounts to bypass this if they are dedicated enough, making it unfair for some players who don't wish to shell out money and can't see opposing build orders
2) People can't construct specific builds for specific maps. Remember when we saw an 8 rax 8 refin 8 fact (which failed, but cool nonetheless) build? Yeah, shit like that would NEVER be seen. Is it cheesy? Yes. But innovative. And that shit needs practice and timing to figure things out.
Sure, you can pretend you're going to do that build and then do another different one, but then you never got to use the build you originally intended. How lame is that.
I'm going to reiterate what I originally proposed. Have an option to block all info for custom games only.
Even other accounts will be worked out after a while from hotkey patterns and such if its played on ladder or any replays get our, so basically the only result is forcing people to repeatedly buy new copies of the game just to be able to practice. Ridiculous.
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I cannot believe this issue is even debatable. You should have the right to hide your match history. Sure it is fair that you scout your opponent by watching his replays in competition because it is the same way in every other sports you can study your opponent's PUBLIC performance. Having the right to see match history and BO is the same as sitting in their practice session everyday and listening to what their coaches tell the players before every match.
This spying thing in esport is very powerful where players can change up the game easier compare to tennis for example. In tennis even if you know what your opponent is going to do it is hard to counter because you can't add things to your game that easily. Whereas if you know he likes to 2 gate you can go pool before hatch. You think it is more interesting because of mind games before match?? I would much rather see mind games DURING matches.
The people who support this match history/BO availability are flat out morons and that is all I have to say about this.
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Why get rid of match history?
Football teams watch videos of their opponents to prepare for their games.
Top poker players study their opponents during games, on tv, and online.
It may seem unfair to be able to look at match history, and I suppose you could argue that because it wasn't televised/streamed or given out as a replay it isn't fair. However.. in Starcraft it is wise to not try to have one single strategy. You need to be able to adapt in a game to what your opponent is doing.
A good Starcraft player, like a good poker player would also have a number of different strategies/tactics to employ that can be done on the fly. Not exactly specific build orders.
If any match history were hidden, I would have to say just custom games.
Also, if you are a player basing your play off specific build orders of your opponent, then you are just BAD & need to L2Play. You deserve it if they trick you by throwing a false build order into their mix.
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I like the idea of blocking build order in custom games, but not ladder games. Anything "on the record" should be public.
Hell, I'd love a random observer mode where you can just join in any current ladder game between two randoms that you don't know.
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On September 16 2010 06:21 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:08 binary25 wrote:On September 16 2010 05:46 Gnax wrote:
Guess what, scouting occurs in all of sports. Why should esports be any different? how is it a bad thing that pro players have the chance to practice and prepare for what's coming? it only raises the skill for everyone.
People need to actually execute their BO's well and adjust them during games instead of just making the same old BO over and over. I'm flabbergasted that people keep comparing this to professional sports. In no professional sport can somebody get detailed information on an opponent's private practice. Please stop using faulty comparisons like this. Replays/vods can be totally different than what a player does in private practices. For example a college football team can practice a gimmick play to use in a huge game. If the opponent had knowledge of this, they would expect it and all hopes of that gimmick play succeeding would be nullified. Plenty of players will develop a specific build vs a specific opponent on a specific map. A huge part of a lot these builds is the element of surprise, which with match history is nullified. No professional player who actually cares about winning would release all his replays of his private practice games to an opponent. Yes scouting can be beneficial to esports to an extent, which is why replays/vods exist. But to have NOTHING private versus an opponent is a ludicrous notion in any professional sport requiring complex strategies and planning. Do you think Lakers would let the Celtics sit in on their practices? Make build orders hideable in match history and tada its solved. Or that college team can leak the trick play and fake it on the field that they are doing it and run a different route and trick his opponent. Which Lotze did to Idra. It works both ways. Just like working on a build to use on your opponent, people will start practicing builds and then completely do a different one to trick their opponent. If their opponent is dumb enough to completely rely on match history they deserve to lose. The possibilities are endless and the BEST thing to do in the end is just to work on YOUR game and adapt to what you scout. Ultimately that's what it's going to come down to. Edit: Tpir pretty much hit the nail on the head. Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:11 tpir wrote:
The argument for hiding match histories sounds like when poker players were worried about having their hole cards exposed on TV and online players didn't like that tables could be data-mined for hand histories. The idea was that the mystique would be shattered and the top secret strategies would be revealed, ruining the game in the process. Yet, poker's popularity and the metagame both exploded because there are no secrets *that* large in poker.
Does this argument against hiding hold for SC2 as well? What if I know my opponent is preparing for me preparing for him? What if he knows I know that too!? Are we both going to double switch-up our build orders? Now all of a sudden the match histories become a very small piece of the bigger metagame picture... which is fairly cool and makes strategy games better.
The player should have the right to keep this private information hidden. It's a ludicrous concept that a player doesn't have the right to keep information about some of his games private. Yes college teams can leak plays, they have that choice. If build orders were hideable players could leak replays in the same way, but as it stands now they don't even have that choice. Anybody in any competitive sport should have the right to keep practice information private.
And yes in some ways this can be compared to what happened to poker, but there are also large and substantial differences. In poker there is nothing comparable to innovating specific build orders to use against an opponent. With any smart player studying his opponent's match history thoroughly now, players will be discouraged from trying these innovative new strategies. For people arguing, "well good, they should focus on sound strats and improving that." WHERE IS THE FUN IN THAT?
A lot of the greatest moments in sports comes from innovative tactics/strategies completely taking an opponent off guard. One of the greatest NFL games I've seen was when in the third game of the season the Miami Dolphins dissect the seemingly invincible New England Patriots by suddenly pulling out the Wildcat offense out of NOWHERE. It completely caught the Patriots off guard and resulted in them losing. If the Patriots were sitting in on the Dolphin's practices, they would have seen it coming and the effectiveness would have been drastically reduced.
Yes, occasionally you will have fake out moments like Lotze vs Idra which was great, but as the game evolves and players start studying match histories a lot more closely, opportunities for a player like AugustWerra to completely take Spunky by surprise with a Battleship timing push will become almost nonexistent. Again to stress my point, players should have this simple right of privacy. That's why I think it should be an option to turn it off or on, so if a player so chooses he can reveal the information to his opponent to mess with his mind, but also have the option of hiding it to try and practice a completely new and innovative idea.
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On September 16 2010 06:57 Illison wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:52 Mutarisk wrote:On September 16 2010 06:30 R3d wrote:
Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that. It makes for boring games. I'd rather see two top players go against each other using true skill instead of mind games to win. When two NFL teams play; sure they have film to study and exploit weaknesses of their opponents game. But the NFL game doesn't end if three void rays fly over the stadium for one play. There are shut outs in NFL games though. Who knows how many of those are due to studying game film.
Yeah... when this happens it's because one team is obviously better than the other usually though. Also, Bill Belichick got in trouble for recording a teams practice. That's pretty much the same as looking at someones build order imo.
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I agree completely with the OP, and a perfect example of this problem in action is the first game Idra played in the GSL vs the T Acupuncture.
People looked up his match history, his builds, and most likely some of his replays. They figured out he loves the cool ghost drop + nuke strat vs zerg, and someone even made a nice big write-up on his play style and history. While I don't fault anyone for doing such (using the tools at your disposal is a good thing) I do fault blizzard for making this possible.
I think it makes it even harder for the underdog to do well. One of the best parts about being unknown in a tourny is that the other person has no idea what to expect. If you play idra, you expect a drawn out macro game, if you play a WC3 player you can generally expect a shorter 1 base micro game. With the match history, your element of surprise is gone.
It's also impossible to hide your replays if you so desire. As soon as you play a ladder game vs a random kid who knows your name, and decides it would be cool to host him playing vs you on any of the replay sites, it's too late.
On September 16 2010 07:01 Snippa- wrote:
Why get rid of match history?
Football teams watch videos of their opponents to prepare for their games.
Top poker players study their opponents during games, on tv, and online.
This is also a very valid argument. It really just comes down to what the community, and the top players think is best for Esports.
I guess if all of the top players felt that while the change is new, annoying, and changes the dynamic from Broodwar match ups, but yet is still good, then I would be siding with them. In the end I think it's the pros who should decide, because it's them who it affects most.
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On September 16 2010 07:02 artanis2 wrote:
Hell, I'd love a random observer mode where you can just join in any current ladder game between two randoms that you don't know.
No, no, no, no, and no.
Lag issues, spectator cheat/misinformation issues.
Even if the spectator were blocked from communicating directly with the players, if the spectator knew someone who knew the person playing, the info could be passed along.
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You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it
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On September 16 2010 07:01 Snippa- wrote:
Why get rid of match history?
Football teams watch videos of their opponents to prepare for their games.
Top poker players study their opponents during games, on tv, and online.
It may seem unfair to be able to look at match history, and I suppose you could argue that because it wasn't televised/streamed or given out as a replay it isn't fair. However.. in Starcraft it is wise to not try to have one single strategy. You need to be able to adapt in a game to what your opponent is doing.
A good Starcraft player, like a good poker player would also have a number of different strategies/tactics to employ that can be done on the fly. Not exactly specific build orders.
If any match history were hidden, I would have to say just custom games.
Also, if you are a player basing your play off specific build orders of your opponent, then you are just BAD & need to L2Play. You deserve it if they trick you by throwing a false build order into their mix.
Progamers in BW also study VoDs of their opponents. Match history is different in this context because not many pro VoDs exist so match history is the only way to go. However, I think match history should be hidden since its sort of the in-house mindgame - practice certain strats in-house but only release the reps for the strats you want the public to see.
I agree with your points to some extent but I think hiding match history and letting players control what is released to the public adds a less transparent mind game than what we saw in the GSL last night.
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On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it
Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2.
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I think all of this could be solved if you could just simply join hidden / lock / private (almost LAN-like) games with specific people. Then you'd have an environment where what you play on ladder is public, but you can practice in secrecy.
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In a lot of sports, film is used. If the film is obtained though legitimate ways, you only have a few options. You film public games, obtain film from others that have recorded public games, and I am sure the list can go on. In starcraft2, the equivalent would be broadcasted games, VODs, or replays. Playing on the ladder would be an extension of that. You are playing with a 2nd party that can choose to disclose the information.
Now if I am a football player, a wrestler, a basketball player, or whatever else... would I want my practice routine publicly exposed? Not really...
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On September 16 2010 07:10 binary25 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2.
Are you actually using creativity as a reason to leave this 'feature' in? Hahaha... surely this is the least creative thing possible, showing everyones exact strategies.
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On September 16 2010 07:06 Snippa- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:02 artanis2 wrote:
Hell, I'd love a random observer mode where you can just join in any current ladder game between two randoms that you don't know. No, no, no, no, and no. Lag issues, spectator cheat/misinformation issues. Even if the spectator were blocked from communicating directly with the players, if the spectator knew someone who knew the person playing, the info could be passed along.
I'm pretty sure there was something like this in WC3, except it was basically a restream of the game that was delayed significantly, so there were no lag or cheating issues.
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On September 16 2010 07:18 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:10 binary25 wrote:On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2. Are you actually using creativity as a reason to leave this 'feature' in? Hahaha... surely this is the least creative thing possible, showing everyones exact strategies.
No I believe he is anti-build order/match history
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Having the right to see match history and BO is the same as sitting in their practice session everyday and listening to what their coaches tell the players before every match.
How so? Is there an option for audio commentary in the match history that I missed? (Not being srs ffs) That you started with this and built on it as a premise is enough to show how weak your overall argument is.
I also really like (again sarcasm!) the weasel word "spying" and the bogus "rights" claims. No one is breaking and entering into people's houses, this is all free and public information available at a few clicks. And Blizzard could delete our accounts tomorrow for any reason at all if they wanted so people should stop pretending like their build orders are some valuable intellectual property that they "own". Long story short: adapt to the metagame and get over it.
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On September 16 2010 07:18 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:10 binary25 wrote:On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2. Are you actually using creativity as a reason to leave this 'feature' in? Hahaha... surely this is the least creative thing possible, showing everyones exact strategies.
Huh? I'm pretty sure he just advocated getting rid of it, unless I interpreted it wrong.
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The player should have the right to keep this private information hidden.
It isn't private though. You are assuming from the outset that it *should* be and then working backwards. Bad logic and "no".
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On September 16 2010 07:21 blabber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:18 infinity2k9 wrote:On September 16 2010 07:10 binary25 wrote:On September 16 2010 07:07 Slago wrote:
You have a solid point but, to look throught the BO to find theses things is a bit tedious especially when youtube/VODs/Streams, give you a much better Idea and are much less effort as well as they are easily obtained, if the player your playing doesn't have those things he's probablly not too famous, and yeah you could do it, but if the information is open to both players than it's completely fair game, it's like saying cheese shouldn't be allowed because it doesn't show skill, well it's part of the game so deal with it Yeah, but what if Idra wants to do a completely different style then what he showed in replays/vods/streams to catch his opponent off guard. Well he doesn't even have that choice to do that which is bad for the game IMO. I don't see how discouraging creativity in this manner is good for Starcraft 2. Are you actually using creativity as a reason to leave this 'feature' in? Hahaha... surely this is the least creative thing possible, showing everyones exact strategies. No I believe he is anti-build order/match history
Oh sorry, i misread there. Something i did think about in context to this. Imagine if Fantasy practicing his valk build was visible to anyone, it would have never been used in a real game even if it only showed up a few times in a match history. That kind of innovative build would be useless.
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On September 16 2010 07:22 tpir wrote:It isn't private though. You are assuming from the outset that it *should* be and then working backwards. Bad logic and "no".
It should be private, just like how our home address and phone number should be kept private.
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On September 16 2010 07:04 sensenmann wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:01 Snippa- wrote:
Why get rid of match history?
Football teams watch videos of their opponents to prepare for their games.
Top poker players study their opponents during games, on tv, and online.
This is also a very valid argument. It really just comes down to what the community, and the top players think is best for Esports. I guess if all of the top players felt that while the change is new, annoying, and changes the dynamic from Broodwar match ups, but yet is still good, then I would be siding with them. In the end I think it's the pros who should decide, because it's them who it affects most.
This argument is COMPLETELY INVALID. In sports you study the matches that the team plays not their practice sessions. In fact it's illegal to go in and film a practice session if the team doesn't allow you do to do. Studying of previous matches has always happened and will always happen. The concern is that your practice is now being studied which is not on.
I really don't understand how people can confuse the two so easily then continue to argue about this subject. It's completely illogical.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
Because you do not have to neither film every training you do nor upload the whole shit onto the webz. Replays of competitive matches are viewable as replays that's comparable to the common sports.
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This feature should be optional. Creative players should be rewarded for there creativity and not be robbed instantly when they use a new bo. With this system you will get alot of mediocre player using this feature to copy bo's that they don't understand why they work but they will still manage to win using it. That's terrible, I don't understand why anyone would want something like that. SC2's competative life is in jeopardy with this feature.
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it's fine (better actually) as it is
The more people see the numbers, the faster tactics (and counter tactics ofc) will improve
Also the fact that both can see each other's stats adds another layer of complexity and pregame mind game and that's fine.
More people will try to get to their opponents shoes to find out how their own bo is exploitable.
Would be nice to move from fixed and standard BOs to a more fluid and adaptable game play.
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I think, being able to see other people's bos is a OK thing, it lessens the suprise element in tourneys, and encourages faster growth in strategy. Besides, it only really goes to about 8:00's. The only thing i'm worried about, is that people would use smurfs to pratice, would get a small advantage. I'm kinda torn on it. But i do like being able to check abd see if people are cheesing every game.
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I have to say it's fine. Once the game is developed everyone will know the common BOs anyway. It's like being able to read your opponent's move lists and combo lists before the start of a fighting game match - everyone already knows it.
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What about having the build order only be displayed for a single hour after the game is played, so that your opponent can view it, and some other of your recent games.... well that might require a few hours. Or have it so that only your last 3 games have their build orders showing, so if you're going into a tourney you can easily mask by either faking or just starting and quitting games. This way once again whoever played against you recently on ladder or w/e can see what you did to them.
Although what I honestly prefer is my originally proposal - option to turn it off for custom games only.
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It can already be disabled for practice (custom) games by using the maps linked on the first page of this thread.
It should remain enabled for ladder matches. Ladder games are public information.
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On September 16 2010 08:04 RiOrius wrote:
It can already be disabled for practice (custom) games by using the maps linked on the first page of this thread.
It should remain enabled for ladder matches. Ladder games are public information.
Oh, I thought it was some mod or something, and I didn't want to set off warden. So that is just an alternative set of maps? How does it disable the history?
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I really can't see any great advantage in making match history public involuntarily the way it is now. In terms of the speed of the evolution of strategy and helping newer players, you can still watch casted games, tournaments and replays. The difference with those is the player chooses to make them available.
I definitely think Blizzard should give the user control.
People make some good points above but even so, I'm not convinced. I just don't think the utility outweighs the problems. 2c.
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On September 16 2010 08:04 RiOrius wrote:
It should remain enabled for ladder matches. Ladder games are public information.
The results of the ladder games are public information, yes, but why should the entire game be public? Shouldn't creative players get some time with their strategy before it leaks and spreads like wildfire?
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation.
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I think it should be only for the player themselves to see. I don't care about other peoples history anyways, I just like going through mine to calculate race win percentages or to browse past opponents.
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On September 16 2010 08:42 csfield wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation.
But you can't go in on them practicing a particular strategy to use against you. You can look at their past games, it's completely different, been reiterated a thousand times in this thread, so please stop people saying random crap like this.
You can always watch past matches for players, no one is stopping you from doing that. But it's illegal to steal another team's playbook or to watch their practice matches they do in privacy. You can only see their public plays, just like you can see other players public plays in tournies, etc. This is concerning practice.
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Keep the history but hide the build order, make it so only the players/spectators of the match can see the BO.
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I don't see how it matters. IdrA demonstrated really well that it can work against you just as much as for you. With that in mind why bother?
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Imho they should remove it (from custom games).
I honestly dont get the people who say "But you can get Vods/replays anyway".
Yeah?
How do you get the replays from my practice partner, where I try a new build, I never tried in a tournament before (no Vods available)?
"Hey X, I am Ys next opponent in <tourney>. I heard you are his friend & practicepartner. Do you mind giving me your replays from your practice games, so I can figure out his playstyle & timings so I can beat him?"
I am 99% sure that you won't get that replay.
Of course it's not possible to hide some basic facts like "Idra likes to macro". From Vods you can deduce his "basic" openings but not his whole strategy & timings.
But new developed strategies (which change every week in sc2) and other strange stuff will be impossible to learn.
Which is good for the game. I want to be surprised. I cannot see "mindgames" via a stream.
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I don't think it should be hideable for everyone. Mainly because everyone and there mother would do it "jut because they can".
Def for anyone remotely competitive though.
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Off Topic: I've just played a game where I won but it didnt show up on my match history and I might not be count as a win for me(didnt pay attention to my wins number before the game), but it showed up on my opponent's match history and counted as a loss for him.
Is this just a bug, or I need to report it to Blizzard to get my win back?
Thanks guys.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 16 2010 08:42 csfield wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation.
This argument is completely half baked, I don't understand how you people keep propping it up.
You can watch people's matches. As in, you study the official games they've played. That is already possible through tournament replay packs. What's currently in place is equivalent to video taping their practice, which is absolutely, 100% not allowed in any sports. Do you people even play sports? The old system was like professional sports, this is not.
As for it developing the direction of strategies quicker, I disagree. It encourages sniping more than it encourages the creation of strong base strategies. Sometimes the two coincide (Bisu vs. sAviOr) but most of the time a snipe build is only useful for that one player alone because they're so specific. I've done it in CS based off of former matches, but I would never spy on someone's scrims to create a counter strategy for it. That may actually stifle creative play because people will rely on basic builds that can't be as easily countered. It also means that these builds are far less streamlined.
You look at their match history and you can literally tell how many units they have at X:XX time. Put a string for 4-5 similar games in a row together and you can create a perfect timing push 100% specific to what they're doing. You can even do it blindly because you know what they've been getting ready for. They can do the same to you, but in this case it favors the worse player who is less likely to win in an honest game.
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On September 16 2010 08:12 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 08:04 RiOrius wrote:
It can already be disabled for practice (custom) games by using the maps linked on the first page of this thread.
It should remain enabled for ladder matches. Ladder games are public information. Oh, I thought it was some mod or something, and I didn't want to set off warden. So that is just an alternative set of maps? How does it disable the history?
The information on the game is stored via the map, then submitted to B.Net at the end. Teddyman figured out how to turn the submission off so B.Net ends up with no information on the game.
Just a few notes:
They are maps
They are safe
They aren't a trigger for Warden, they do not alter your game files or client
They can be found on EU and US by searching for "BO Hider"
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It'll happen...just give them time...like 10 years maybe. -_____-
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On September 16 2010 10:19 Jibba wrote: but in this case it favors the worse player who is less likely to win in an honest game.
How do you figure that?
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As was seen with Idra, it's a double-edged sword that can cut both ways.
No need to hide match history. If you're a pro-gamer, you can afford the $60 to buy another account to practice on. If you don't have that $60, then maybe pro-gaming isn't for you, and you should make your money some other way.
If you're not a pro-gamer/tournament gamer, what's the problem?
Also, if scouting you through match history can hurt you that bad, maybe you're not as good a progamer as you thought? What about scouting in-game and all that other stuff, eh?
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I like match history. If you want to hide your builds, there are ways. See this thread for example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120
If someone is using the same build order over and over and never changing it up, you'll probably hear about it anyways.That aside, if you change up your build, it'll throw people off who have been looking at your history. In addition, every game should be played with scouting, etcetera. Normally people who complain about this do similar builds game after game and somehow feel like if someone sees it they can 'counter' it. Makes it a fairly unsafe build if someone knowing you're doing something makes you lose.
There are so many threads about this... And they all frustrate me.
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On September 16 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:What this means is b4 any tournament, you can look up your opponent, and study their build order, and know how they are most likely going to play, as well as know the possible counter deviation they may do. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120edit: added poll: Poll: Should blizzard get rid of match history/build order viewing?Make match history hideable (1185) 70% No (314) 18% Yes (199) 12% 1698 total votes Your vote: Should blizzard get rid of match history/build order viewing? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Make match history hideable
i don't see the problem? it's called scouting. they are playing for big money. by the same theory, prosports should not have replays of games so other teams can't determine their weakness.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 16 2010 10:32 tetracycloide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 10:19 Jibba wrote: but in this case it favors the worse player who is less likely to win in an honest game. How do you figure that? Do I need a baller analogy to make this clear? If both players focus on their own builds during practice, the better player wins. If they specifically scout eachother, either you get a shitfest of a game or if one of them does it, that player should win as long as the skill gap is manageable (say A teamer vs. S class player.)
Again, in NO PROFESSIONAL SPORTS ARE YOU ALLOWED TO SCOUT PRACTICES.
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]Do I need a baller analogy to make this clear? If both players focus on their own builds during practice, the better player wins. If they specifically scout eachother, either you get a shitfest of a game or if one of them does it, that player should win as long as the skill gap is manageable (say A teamer vs. S class player.)
Again, in NO PROFESSIONAL SPORTS ARE YOU ALLOWED TO SCOUT PRACTICES.
Yes, you do, because people can already hide their practice with the custom maps and if you are lumping the public ladder games into "practice" well then you are equivocating and have a flawed argument.
And comparing this to real-life team sports (again you are conflating with "professional sports") is probably not the best place to start when you look for your new analogy.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 16 2010 11:00 tpir wrote:Show nested quote +]Do I need a baller analogy to make this clear? If both players focus on their own builds during practice, the better player wins. If they specifically scout eachother, either you get a shitfest of a game or if one of them does it, that player should win as long as the skill gap is manageable (say A teamer vs. S class player.)
Again, in NO PROFESSIONAL SPORTS ARE YOU ALLOWED TO SCOUT PRACTICES. Yes, you do, because people can already hide their practice with the custom maps and if you are lumping the public ladder games into "practice" well then you are equivocating and have a flawed argument. It's an extra unnecessary measure. Why make top players jump through even more hoops (on top of owning 3 copies of the game) just to prepare for competition?
And comparing this to real-life team sports (again you are conflating with "professional sports") is probably not the best place to start when you look for your new analogy.
I'm responding to the 50,000 other idiots in this thread who agree with that incorrect post on the first page, comparing it to professional sports.
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It's an extra unnecessary measure. Why make top players jump through even more hoops (on top of owning 3 copies of the game) just to prepare for competition?
Oh no doubt. I definitely agree with this. Just having custom games be "off the grid" seems to make the most sense unless blizzard is worried people are all testing out hacked maps 
And my bad on the pro sports confusion. I mean there are some parallels since both have competition and practice and what not but I think the poker/chess parallels make more sense. (Could be wrong on all of this though! :D )
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option to hide seems like an elegant solution
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The greater issue is that pro-gaming mills will eventually find a way around this. They can suck up the extra money for that "anonymous account". And several years from now, when the game's limits have been adequately explored, most pro-gaming-level training will be in-house, anyway. It simply isn't for the time being because everyone's still learning the game. It will actually hurt amateurs worse. The players who can't afford a second copy will be at the mercy of their match history.
And yes, to reiterate what people have been stating: This is not the equivalent of watching a sporting event and using the game footage to scout for tendencies. This is the equivalent of taping practices, which most professional sports look down upon. "But I could watch replays in Warcraft III as well!" But you could also play your weaker hands on the ladder and develop your A-build against your practice partner. The transparency now makes it much more difficult to do that.
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Basically, the thing that will happen is people will open the same then have a bunch of variances @ a set time where the opponent can no longer rely on replays (because of too many deviations) it will just take time to get to this point to mask openers to look all the same. However, it goes both ways, so both opponents can see eachother, as everyone knows if you follow it blindly (such as idra) you will get very easily manipulated.
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On September 16 2010 10:39 Wolf wrote:I like match history. If you want to hide your builds, there are ways. See this thread for example: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120If someone is using the same build order over and over and never changing it up, you'll probably hear about it anyways.That aside, if you change up your build, it'll throw people off who have been looking at your history. In addition, every game should be played with scouting, etcetera. Normally people who complain about this do similar builds game after game and somehow feel like if someone sees it they can 'counter' it. Makes it a fairly unsafe build if someone knowing you're doing something makes you lose. There are so many threads about this... And they all frustrate me.
If you KNOW what BO your opponent is practicing then you can design a special BO just to specially counter his. HOW THE FUCK IS THIS FAIR??
Example: I look at Flash's match history and see that he opens 14cc every game on a map. He has planned this strategy out carefully and has lategame transitions and all that. I see this and just 6 pool... Wouldn't BW be so much more awesome if everyone knew what the other person was going to do? The game would just devolve into standard play every game.
And no, you wouldn't "hear" about what your opponent is doing if they are practicing with a teammate or friend in a custom game. Do you think pro players practice their BO's on random ladder games and maps? An opponent could just look at your history and see what BO you have been using on what map and against what race. Regarding this, "Makes it a fairly unsafe build if someone knowing [what] you're doing something makes you lose." Opening FE on a map like metal is considered a fairly safe build by zerg on Metal, but if your opponent KNOWS you are going to do this its not safe at all. He can just blind counter it with proxy 2 gates or something. There is nothing the zerg can do in response if his BO is known.
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That first option is a misnomer. Making a match history hideable is the same as it being removed because who in their right mind would give themselves a disadvantage like that.
You're skewing the results because giving someone more choices has positive connotation to it. It can also be viewed as giving people less choice because less information is available to you when facing an opponent. It's the reason why polls are absolute garbage, since word spin and context accounts for the majority of its leverage.
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On September 16 2010 10:37 mavfin wrote:
As was seen with Idra, it's a double-edged sword that can cut both ways.
No need to hide match history. If you're a pro-gamer, you can afford the $60 to buy another account to practice on. If you don't have that $60, then maybe pro-gaming isn't for you, and you should make your money some other way.
If you're not a pro-gamer/tournament gamer, what's the problem?
Also, if scouting you through match history can hurt you that bad, maybe you're not as good a progamer as you thought? What about scouting in-game and all that other stuff, eh?
If the feature is bad enough to make people have to buy another copy, why the fuck should it not be optional? The lack of logic here is outstanding. People can use it in any tournament from the GSL down to the bottom, and OF COURSE in a game like Starcraft it matters to see your build. Have you ever even seen pro BW? I'm guessing no since all the people claiming it doesn't matter have only seemed to appear recently.
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Even in an amateur league I am trying to set up, this seems like it will be a problem. What is stopping me from looking at my next opponent's build orders? If I know nothing about him, wouldn't it be very beneficial for me to see if he usually goes MMM or mass mech?
It is very tempting to look. Without a doubt, the feature should at least be hide-able.
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
rofl...
Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent in soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis and etc etc?
Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent 30 food BO in SC2?
If you know the answers you should know why is a bad thing.
It's not even comparable.
Match history in SC2 It's like having soccer practices with cameras all around you and all that info is out there for free for every single opponent in your league to see...
but I still dont get why it's a bad thing
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Match history should be hidden for all CGs. It should not be hidden for ladder IMO since those are games in the "public" realm and as such anyone should be able to check what you do in the "public" realm.
I do admit, it is REALLY nice to go check what builds people are using in on ladder before I play them in a tournament. I don't think I should be able to check up on what people are doing in their practice games with clanmates/teammates though. There's something wrong about that one.
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More than the *option* to make custom games hideable, I wish that they were always hidden.
When you look at someone else's (or even your own) profile, who gives a fuck about custom games? You want to see how they are/were doing in rated matches. I don't want to see custom games. The first thing I do is go to 1v1 and filter out the bullshit games I don't want to see. And then EVERY TIME I go back to check another game, I have to do that again because Blizzard's default assumes that I care about unranked fun matches (or practice games).
I think it will ONLY be used for tournament play, and for the rest of us it's just damn inconvenient.
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This is a shitstorm of a thread I can't begin to add any value to, EXCEPT...
Stop comparing the ability to see match history BO's to watching a practice. It's more like breaking into the locker room of a football team and taking a peek at their playbook. You know they're going to throw a football, what you don't know is how they're going to throw it.
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On September 16 2010 18:00 Drakan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. rofl... Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent in soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis and etc etc? Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent 30 food BO in SC2? If you know the answers you should know why is a bad thing. It's not even comparable.
Match history in SC2 It's like having soccer practices with cameras all around you and all that info is out there for free for every single opponent in your league to see...
but I still dont get why it's a bad thing
sup boxing/mma//any combat sport
//also
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120
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Haven't there been times when match history was used to look at suspected drop hackers, leading to reporting them? Removing match history, or letting people hide it, will let these serial drop hackers go undetected a lot easier ...
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Everyone has access and so there is no argument to be made for any "unfairness".
Your argument is about as strong as someone who claims "In PvP dark templars are too strong and so should be nerfed"
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I say keep match history.
If the people who win tournaments are proficient at winging it combined with studying their opponent, congratulations, they won a tournament like any sports team does.
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Totally agree with the OP.
At least one should be able to hide it if he likes.
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Well you cant really rely upon "studying" a players build by looking at the build order in the match history because:
You dont know how much scouting information the players in the game has, or how the early game went (rushes or mistakes) or if any buildings are proxied in certain locations
by just seeing "bunker" at 20 supply could either mean a defensive or aggressive bunker
only way to know how a player builds and reacts in certain situations is to watch a lot of their replays and/or play vs them
by just studying the build order given in the match history i think you might cripple yourself and underrestimate your oppoenent
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This argument is completely half baked, I don't understand how you people keep propping it up. You can watch people's matches. As in, you study the official games they've played. That is already possible through tournament replay packs. What's currently in place is equivalent to video taping their practice, which is absolutely, 100% not allowed in any sports. Do you people even play sports? The old system was like professional sports, this is not.
And I can't believe how the football & it being illegal to tape pratices keeps coming up...
As it stands, right now, all of this BO information is PUBLIC INFORMATION. It is recorded, automatically, every game we play. And freely viewable by anyone wanting to view it.
If only one player had access to BO's and nobody else did, I'd be pissed off. If someone had hacked, cheated, stolen, whatever to get it, I'd be 100% in support of their expulsion from a tourney. But thats not the case...every single player has this advantage (lol) available to them.
The only negative is it will prevent some unknown from coming up with some outrageous cheese to win a tourney off of...which, lets face it, none of us want to watch streams/VoDs of some idiot cheesing his way to $85K - we'd all be royally pissed off.
Discussing the removal or non-removal of course is fine...but the analogies are getting fucking retarded. Its not anagalous to anything...it is people using public information to their own advantage (or, as we've seen, detriment).
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On September 16 2010 22:06 Pulimuli wrote:
Well you cant really rely upon "studying" a players build by looking at the build order in the match history because:
You dont know how much scouting information the players in the game has, or how the early game went (rushes or mistakes) or if any buildings are proxied in certain locations
by just seeing "bunker" at 20 supply could either mean a defensive or aggressive bunker
only way to know how a player builds and reacts in certain situations is to watch a lot of their replays and/or play vs them
by just studying the build order given in the match history i think you might cripple yourself and underrestimate your oppoenent
Yeah sure there are a lot of situations where it wont be very useful, but if for example you're playing a PvP in a tournament. If you look at your opponents history and see 10 PvP games in a row where he built pylon forge pylon pylon cannon cannon cannon cannon cannon, you can pretty much expect some cannon rush cheese. This could have saved ReXZanDarke in game 2 vs inca in the GSL.
I think the problem isn't really match history, it's more lack of smurf accounts. It's unfair that someone can gain an advantage if they're willing to spend an extra $60 on a secret account.
edit: If nobody could buy an extra account, I wouldn't care about this, it's the fact that it is possible to work around, just only for money.
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Just do it back as it was in beta - only 5 of them are shown in public and the full list can only be seen either by yourself or realID friends.
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On September 16 2010 23:23 GoDannY wrote:
Just do it back as it was in beta - only 5 of them are shown in public and the full list can only be seen either by yourself or realID friends.
To see someones profile you have to add them as a friend or play them in a match right?
I keep accidentally thinking that "oh this sucks because there is a public place on b.net where the community connects", but then I remember there are no chat rooms. I weep at the void that is b.net2.0
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 16 2010 19:08 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 18:00 Drakan wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. rofl... Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent in soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis and etc etc? Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent 30 food BO in SC2? If you know the answers you should know why is a bad thing. It's not even comparable.
Match history in SC2 It's like having soccer practices with cameras all around you and all that info is out there for free for every single opponent in your league to see...
but I still dont get why it's a bad thing sup boxing/mma//any combat sport //also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120
Uhm no, private practice is still private in MMA/boxing etc. Its not private in SC2 and thats the point.
On September 16 2010 21:51 Trang wrote:
Haven't there been times when match history was used to look at suspected drop hackers, leading to reporting them? Removing match history, or letting people hide it, will let these serial drop hackers go undetected a lot easier ...
Just make custom games private then =o
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On September 17 2010 00:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Uhm no, private practice is still private in MMA/boxing etc. Its not private in SC2 and thats the point.
I'd love to hear an argument for removing the match history that isn't just an analogy to another sport. What, specifically, about seeing the match history in SC2 makes it bad for the game overall and not just bad for 'surprise' build orders at a pro level and why? Often references to SC1 practice houses are made and how hard team organizers work to keep build orders and replays private. This isn't an argument for keeping them private in the SC2 though, it's just an appeal to maintain the status quo.
If build orders remain public I think we'd see fewer matches where a player is caught off guard by something way out of left field and just looses because they've never had to deal with that before. I think this is a good thing because it would promote players who are well rounded and prepare over those that prepare a strategy tailored for a specific purpose. As a spectator I enjoy this more because I'd rather see a protracted macro battle that focuses on subtleties like timing and positioning. In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Instead of having to wait between tournaments to find out what's new the information is available right away. The faster the information is available the sooner pros can respond to it and come up with counters the sooner we can get over fad-of-the-month builds like 5 rax reapers and 4 gate pushes.
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Match history levels the playing field a little bit for people that are casted vs people that aren't.
+ Show Spoiler +
Since looking at Lotzes builds probably cost Idra the match you don't really have any evidence that it gives someone an advantage.
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I approve of this thread.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 16 2010 21:58 leve15 wrote:
I say keep match history.
If the people who win tournaments are proficient at winging it combined with studying their opponent, congratulations, they won a tournament like any sports team does.
Professional sports teams don't "wing it."
What the god damn hell is wrong with you people? NFL teams have every single play pre-determined for at least their first offensive series, and usually more. They're able to run those plays because the OTHER TEAMS DON'T SPY ON THEIR PRACTICE.
asdfasfdsafasfdasfasfa
"Winging it" leads to WORSE play. Streamlined, sophisticated builds with lots of intricacies are what you want in ESPORTS. When people improvise, it's obviously less predictable but it's also sloppy, unrefined play. The advancement of strategy comes when top players are able to see a tangible benefit from introducing new strategies. If their efforts are immediately counter, then they'll just stick to conservative builds that are less counterable and we won't see any real innovation at all.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game.
Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation.
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Doesn't this actually lead to MORE innovation? I mean, consider professional chess. Every single move is known for every game ever played by any ranked player. It doesn't make cheese more popular. It doesn't make the games shittier. In fact, it's improved the build orders to the point of near perfection in all variations.
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They should just make it so you have to be friends to see additional match history information, like build orders.
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custom games should be private, ladder games are fine being public. Basically what jinro said - any competitive non-inhouse match is free game to tape, watch, etc, just like watching videos of the Patriots games against different teams to try and familiarize your team with their plays. Custom games should be equivalent to the private practices, and build orders or even match history for them should not be viewable.
Personally I like being able to stalk opponents who cheese me, cause I want to know answers to questions like "do they 6rax proxy reaper EVERY game?"
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How do you even view the build order of other people if you're not friends with them... or even search Users IDs to view their profile on battle.net?
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On September 16 2010 10:19 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 08:42 csfield wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation. This argument is completely half baked, I don't understand how you people keep propping it up. You can watch people's matches. As in, you study the official games they've played. That is already possible through tournament replay packs. What's currently in place is equivalent to video taping their practice, which is absolutely, 100% not allowed in any sports. Do you people even play sports? The old system was like professional sports, this is not.
Wouldn't video taping their practice be watching their practice game replays instead?
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On September 17 2010 02:16 nexus2 wrote:
How do you even view the build order of other people if you're not friends with them... or even search Users IDs to view their profile on battle.net?
In a tournament in korea, it's likely you or someone you know has bumped into your opponents on the ladder.
+ Show Spoiler +
Lotze was also practicing against his Prime teammate playing "idra style" quite a lot to prep for the matches against idra. The spying problem isn't one-sided.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:21 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 10:19 Jibba wrote:On September 16 2010 08:42 csfield wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation. This argument is completely half baked, I don't understand how you people keep propping it up. You can watch people's matches. As in, you study the official games they've played. That is already possible through tournament replay packs. What's currently in place is equivalent to video taping their practice, which is absolutely, 100% not allowed in any sports. Do you people even play sports? The old system was like professional sports, this is not. Wouldn't video taping their practice be watching their practice game replays instead?
Then it's like stealing the game plan or playbook, which is also a pretty huge rule and ethics violation.
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On September 17 2010 02:22 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:16 nexus2 wrote:
How do you even view the build order of other people if you're not friends with them... or even search Users IDs to view their profile on battle.net? In a tournament in korea, it's likely you or someone you know has bumped into your opponents on the ladder. + Show Spoiler +
Lotze was also practicing against his Prime teammate playing "idra style" quite a lot to prep for the matches against idra. The spying problem isn't one-sided.
ok i see... is there anyway to search for people's profile on the web to check out their 1v1 stats record?
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Playing a ladder match online isn't practice. It's a match, like a regular season game. Comparing that to practice is a terrible analogy.
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I'd be happy with just having the option to disable it.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:33 andrewlt wrote:
Playing a ladder match online isn't practice. It's a match, like a regular season game. Comparing that to practice is a terrible analogy.
No one considers the ladder in any such way, except the delusional folks at Blizzard who made Bnet 2.0.
In CS terms, the ladder is equivalent to OGL.
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On September 17 2010 02:33 andrewlt wrote:
Playing a ladder match online isn't practice. It's a match, like a regular season game. Comparing that to practice is a terrible analogy.
Sure, but in-house custom games SHOULD be comparable to practices. Ladder matches being viewable are fine by me, in fact I personally would be very opposed to them being hide-able.
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On September 17 2010 02:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 21:58 leve15 wrote:
I say keep match history.
If the people who win tournaments are proficient at winging it combined with studying their opponent, congratulations, they won a tournament like any sports team does. Professional sports teams don't "wing it." What the god damn hell is wrong with you people? NFL teams have every single play pre-determined for at least their first offensive series, and usually more. They're able to run those plays because the OTHER TEAMS DON'T SPY ON THEIR PRACTICE. asdfasfdsafasfdasfasfa "Winging it" leads to WORSE play. Streamlined, sophisticated builds with lots of intricacies are what you want in ESPORTS. When people improvise, it's obviously less predictable but it's also sloppy, unrefined play. The advancement of strategy comes when top players are able to see a tangible benefit from introducing new strategies. If their efforts are immediately counter, then they'll just stick to conservative builds that are less counterable and we won't see any real innovation at all.
I don't think other professional sports offer a good analogy. Football is one of the few that uses pre-determined plays and even that is a relatively new development in the history of football. Plus if they get a big penalty and end up with 3rd and 20 they probably will be winging it at that point.
I do think you have a point about it hindering players from devising new builds. I don't think it's a problem just yet because you have well known players with lots of casts and replay packs available playing relative unknowns but I can see how it would be a problem in the long run. I imagine a lot of players already have private practice accounts but that introduces the headache of keeping it secret. They have to give it out to some people so they have people to practice against.
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On September 17 2010 02:03 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation.
So I suggest we stop talking about this in terms of analogies and make some direct arguments and you respond with an analogy that makes even less sense?
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On September 17 2010 05:50 tetracycloide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:03 Jibba wrote:On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation. So I suggest we stop talking about this in terms of analogies and make some direct arguments and you respond with an analogy that makes even less sense?
I really do not care about all this grand usage of "evolution of the game" you are throwing around. You should have the option to conceal personal information. BO is personal information and if they wish to keep it hidden they should have the right to do so.
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BO is not personal information. It is a record of games you played on Blizzard's network. Your opponent could always just release the replay as well. No one can have a reasonable expectation of privacy on B.net.
Having open build orders gives no one a clear advantage. They are open to everyone. They can also help foster the growing e-sports scene by providing even more information to fans about their favorite players.
Being able to scout your opponent will not result in an auto-win. You have to execute in the game. Scouting even backfired against Idra. People are getting way too excited from a couple comments Artosis/Tasteless made during a GSL cast.
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Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation.
LOL.
<3.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 17 2010 05:50 tetracycloide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:03 Jibba wrote:On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation. So I suggest we stop talking about this in terms of analogies and make some direct arguments and you respond with an analogy that makes even less sense?
The analogies work, you just don't like them because they don't support your argument. In fact, the football analogy is perfect. What's even worse about your posting is that I've explained in detail multiple times why it's a problem but you continue to ignore those parts of my posts.
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Sweet! Thanks for the idea! Now I'm going to look at my opponents match history for my tournament this weekend! I can't believe I never thought of this.
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I plan to discuss this on WoC this week because I believe the exact opposite of the OP. Personally, I do feel it has an effect on the early stages of SC2 in a competitive setting... but ultimate, it's going to make the pros better players.
Let's take the Idra game for example (GSL RO32). He should have won game 2. He was EXPECTING the opponent to use a build, and his opponent played directly into his hands. Instead the opponent was making that SG in the SW corner and it was game over. Will Idra ever not scout there again? Did Idra put HIMSELF at a disadvantage by assuming his opponent would do what he was studying.
I think there's an argument for both sides, but ultimately I believe the game will benefit from it in the long run.
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Ladder games should be public. Tournaments should be public.
Custom games should be private.
This thread should be locked. Its been argued to death. Everyone agrees on the fundamental point: players need a way to practice in secret.
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I think its fine, not like you do the same build order for every match up, for every player. You build what you think will work after scouting your opponent. For example, if some one did 3rax push every game they would win... wait a minute
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On September 17 2010 07:34 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 05:50 tetracycloide wrote:On September 17 2010 02:03 Jibba wrote:On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation. So I suggest we stop talking about this in terms of analogies and make some direct arguments and you respond with an analogy that makes even less sense? The analogies work, you just don't like them because they don't support your argument. In fact, the football analogy is perfect. What's even worse about your posting is that I've explained in detail multiple times why it's a problem but you continue to ignore those parts of my posts.
I don't like analogies because they don't support any argument. What may or may not work in football or baseball or soccer or MMA or whatever other sport is being used is completely irrelevant. Football is a particularly bad example because it's a play based game.
You are right though, you did make an actual point without any analogies:
On September 17 2010 02:01 Jibba wrote:
"Winging it" leads to WORSE play. Streamlined, sophisticated builds with lots of intricacies are what you want in ESPORTS. When people improvise, it's obviously less predictable but it's also sloppy, unrefined play. The advancement of strategy comes when top players are able to see a tangible benefit from introducing new strategies. If their efforts are immediately counter, then they'll just stick to conservative builds that are less counterable and we won't see any real innovation at all.
I think improvisation and adaptation is the mark of a good player and a well played game. You're not really suggesting they're a bad thing actually, you're just suggesting they should happen between tournaments in constructing a build. I think the game would be more interesting if they took place during the matches instead and that's what I think revealed build orders does.
You make another good point about hiding custom games by editing maps. If the option to practice without it is there then why make it so hard to get to? Just make it a check box on game creation or don't give people the option, why include it but leave it obscure?
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This should never be a problem if you develop more than 1 build vs. a race... if you are entering a tournament and are one-sided... well you probably aren't that great to start with
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I think they should make it able to be hidden. And if not the whole history, just able to hide, or remove the build order tab.
Cause now that I know this, I don't need my buddies stealing my builds.
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Put it this way.
If this system was in place for BW, Movie's all-in goon rush vs Jaedong would've had absolutely 0 chance of working cause Jaedong/coaches or scouts on Oz would've looked in Movie's match history and seen it coming.
The current system trivializes the impact of new innovative builds, something we should not want.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 00:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Uhm no, private practice is still private in MMA/boxing etc. Its not private in SC2 and thats the point.
I'd love to hear an argument for removing the match history that isn't just an analogy to another sport. What, specifically, about seeing the match history in SC2 makes it bad for the game overall and not just bad for 'surprise' build orders at a pro level and why? Often references to SC1 practice houses are made and how hard team organizers work to keep build orders and replays private. This isn't an argument for keeping them private in the SC2 though, it's just an appeal to maintain the status quo. If build orders remain public I think we'd see fewer matches where a player is caught off guard by something way out of left field and just looses because they've never had to deal with that before. I think this is a good thing because it would promote players who are well rounded and prepare over those that prepare a strategy tailored for a specific purpose. As a spectator I enjoy this more because I'd rather see a protracted macro battle that focuses on subtleties like timing and positioning. In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Instead of having to wait between tournaments to find out what's new the information is available right away. The faster the information is available the sooner pros can respond to it and come up with counters the sooner we can get over fad-of-the-month builds like 5 rax reapers and 4 gate pushes.
Thats gonna happen either way, how about you think about the people who enjoy specially prepared 1-time-only builds?
I mean, if this was in SC1, combined with the difficulty in obtaining smurf accounts (somewhat lessened on the Korean servers since the game is still in open beta mode), BoxeR would almost not have existed.
Think about that for a second.
On September 17 2010 10:15 Capteone wrote:
This should never be a problem if you develop more than 1 build vs. a race... if you are entering a tournament and are one-sided... well you probably aren't that great to start with
Not true - there are many potentially very good builds that rely on surprise. Even if you arent intending on using it in every game in a bo3, it still hurts you if its revealed.
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What if you could only see there build order if you just played a game with them in the after game score screen but that was the only place you could find it?
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Easy solution: Find one of your friends who plays the same race as you and log onto each other's accounts when doing practice matches for your tourney. Not only is your build order hidden, but you are seeding your matchlist with bogus builds.
Pros in a house only need to just chairs with the person right next to them. Problem solved.
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On September 17 2010 10:48 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Thats gonna happen either way, how about you think about the people who enjoy specially prepared 1-time-only builds?
I mean, if this was in SC1, combined with the difficulty in obtaining smurf accounts (somewhat lessened on the Korean servers since the game is still in open beta mode), BoxeR would almost not have existed.
Think about that for a second.
Based on what I know about BoxeR, which is admittedly less than you most likely know, I don't really follow this example at all. Can you explain more specifically what you're getting at?
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On September 16 2010 03:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
sc2 players need to do more than 1 build per map/mu ^_^
I pitty the fool that looks at my matchlist for ideas. I try and do 4-5 builds per matchup and more depending on the map.
I would indeed, pity the fool that looked at your matchlist for ideas
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You have a good point, but most pros probably have smurf accounts anyways. It sucks that they have to spend an extra 60 dollars (they probably have to spend a lot more than that to get cross region play), but I don't think blizz would bother changing something that only affects less than 1% of its customers.
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I am in favor of this function. I find it will be usefull in the future. Also, you should always tell your opponent that you made the army that defeated them, just for them to enjoy. =D
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On September 17 2010 00:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 19:08 dogabutila wrote:On September 16 2010 18:00 Drakan wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. rofl... Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent in soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis and etc etc? Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent 30 food BO in SC2? If you know the answers you should know why is a bad thing. It's not even comparable.
Match history in SC2 It's like having soccer practices with cameras all around you and all that info is out there for free for every single opponent in your league to see...
but I still dont get why it's a bad thing sup boxing/mma//any combat sport //also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120 Uhm no, private practice is still private in MMA/boxing etc. Its not private in SC2 and thats the point.
Practice is not private in combat sports. Everybody knows what you are working on. It's not like you can close the entire gym while you are training and other people are not allowed in. People talk, and everybody knows who visits which gym to roll/drill/spar. It's not hard to figure out what people are practicing.
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Stop this chattering and worrying. You will than have more time to learn how to play and not worry. Dont use builds than. Just play standard and good. Have a pract account. Or use a friends account. Theres ways around it if your paranoid. If you play gimmicky, than of course its bad. But if your worried, dont do it.
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On September 16 2010 03:14 Dionyseus wrote:
Nothing is stopping you from buying another account to practice on. If you think saving $60 is worth the risk of losing $85,000, something's wrong with you.
And you think it's acceptable that people should have to pay 60 bucks just for a smurf account? Bnet 2.0 is the fucking worst.
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Blizzard should not "stifle creativity" by allowing people to study their opponent and then training the one thing they think will work against him. Being able to "adjust on the fly" and to change your own buildorder from what you see your opponent doing is necessary or otherwise you are just an automaton [2010] with a preprogrammed buildorder. Machines are dumb and not fun to watch.
Being able to hide something is a basic right to privacy, but Blizzard seems to have some problems with that since the "ever popular" Facebook integration.
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I don't see why everyone's panties are in the bunch. Good sports teams impose their will. I think it only helps the pro gaming scene. People will be forced to be more well rounded players and learn the whole game. If you're a one trick pony who has to hide your cheese build then you don't deserve to win. Good players scout and react to the info. Play your game and impose your will. Crying about match history is a waste of time. It's not even accurate anyway it always has the supply count wrong.
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On September 16 2010 07:06 Snippa- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 07:02 artanis2 wrote:
Hell, I'd love a random observer mode where you can just join in any current ladder game between two randoms that you don't know. No, no, no, no, and no. Lag issues, spectator cheat/misinformation issues. Even if the spectator were blocked from communicating directly with the players, if the spectator knew someone who knew the person playing, the info could be passed along.
Obviously it'd be a lag free, one way communication only. Not like the existing shitty spectator lags everyone mode. I really fail to see the issue with "cheating" because there are regularly 30,000 games being played at once. The odds you jump into the one you want to view for your buddy would be very very slim. If it was an issue they could put a 5-10 minute delay on game data streams, but the longer this time delay is the more resources it will require.
edit: It could also not tell you who the players are until the match finishes... there are trivial solutions to that problem.
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Blizzard won't remove the match history. But I agree that people should be able to choose whether they want to hide or not. I personally find it pointless though, because who the heck cares about your match history? Would a Pro be seen as less Pro if he had a history that was a little worse than another Pro? The point is how he plays here and now, is it not?
I, for one, find it to be an important part of my general play history. In the future, when I become a Pro (read: WHEN haha), it's nice to see my history of successes and failures.
BUT - I can understand that people have reasons for this (whatever those reasons are). If it's a fair feature that doesn't directly or indirectly intervene with Blizzards intentions for the game, negatively speaking, then I support it. Even though I personally find it to be ridiculous. But that's me
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On September 17 2010 13:46 dogabutila wrote: Practice is not private in combat sports. Everybody knows what you are working on. It's not like you can close the entire gym while you are training and other people are not allowed in. People talk, and everybody knows who visits which gym to roll/drill/spar. It's not hard to figure out what people are practicing.
"What they're looking to accomplish with practice" does not equal "taping their practice to determine nuances and tendencies of the athlete(s) in question". The only problem with this thread is that people are arguing for or against a public match history. It should be optional.
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if people are really that worried about someone seeing there build orders then why not get a extra account or play on a friends account? i mean if its THAT much of a bother then the extra account is worth it. so really shouldn't be that big a deal.
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On September 18 2010 03:16 Ballistixz wrote:
if people are really that worried about someone seeing there build orders then why not get a extra account or play on a friends account? i mean if its THAT much of a bother then the extra account is worth it. so really shouldn't be that big a deal.
That's the point. It's another Battle.net 2.0 inconvenience where the only answer is "pool your resources". This game is seemingly designed around the incorrect belief the Teamliquid audience is such fanboys that they'll spend the extra sixty-plus dollars to get their functionality back.
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United States7166 Posts
no, because of the ladder
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On September 18 2010 03:26 MichaelJLowell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 03:16 Ballistixz wrote:
if people are really that worried about someone seeing there build orders then why not get a extra account or play on a friends account? i mean if its THAT much of a bother then the extra account is worth it. so really shouldn't be that big a deal. That's the point. It's another Battle.net 2.0 inconvenience where the only answer is "pool your resources". This game is seemingly designed around the incorrect belief the Teamliquid audience is such fanboys that they'll spend the extra sixty-plus dollars to get their functionality back.
most of the players already have multiple EU/NA/asian server accounts so they can play on those servers tho... so if they can do that i dont see why they cant also practice privately and secretly with a different account as well.
i know this game is trying to milk you for all the money you got, that was evident when they decided on the package for HoS and LoV, but what else is there to do. we all know that if blizz do decide to remove the match history thing its not gonna happen any time in soon...
or should i remind u of chat channels and all the other features players want in but have to wait possibly months to years for it to be implemented in? so just go with what you got.
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Make it hideable IMO
Not that I would use the feature, but I can understand why others might.
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A lot of people aren't discussing another huge problem:
You can't avoid spoiler for games that will be cast after they've been played. A lot of tournaments cast replays to make sure that no player is listening to the stream. This can't be done without people being able to find out the results before the games are played.
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I wish I didn't have my league and rank blurted into my face in big letters whenever I want to play ladder games. Doesn't help the RTS anxiety one bit feeling as though you've a rank to live up to.
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I haven't read the whole thread, but to summarize my thoughts on the subject:
The build order feature is symmetric so it doesn't favor anyone except that person has a separate training account in which case you still get to see his playstyle from other tournaments he played on his "public account".
Doing research on opponents and being able to use those informations is a relevant skill in a lot of sports/games. The match history therefore actually adds another layer of depht to the game and gives good player another way to capitalize on their skill. Which is good imho.
Analyzing the playstyle of opponents isn't something new for SC. The pros in the korean leagues and also the known names sure do their resarch and prepare for specific opponents. This kind of preparation wasn't as widely available on the lower levels since you wouldn't always find vods/reps of a lesser known opponent. Now we lower level players can also so have that kind of preparation. The fact that lazy players that don't prepare get punished is again good for competitive play.
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I want replays. All the replays should be available through the profiles of the players.
I think Blizzard had something planned like that. Hopefully they will introduce it sooner or later.
I cant understand how metagame could ever be bad for the game or progaming.
Its beyond me how many ppl think matchhistory should be removed...
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Maybe I'm just dense but I'm still not getting your point at all, what in these games am I supposed to be noticing that having build orders revealed on custom games would change? The second especially looks like the build order reveals nothing at all, that all the game winning decisions took place during the game.
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I really don't think it's a problem... If you assume someone is doing X without scouting then you will lose because of this thing called mixing up BOs. If you scout effectively then it doesn't matter if know some BO or not.
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On a related note, and please excuse me for being a b.net2.0 neophyte, but how do you check a player's history anyway if he's not in your division/ladder?
The Match History available on b.net's site doesn't show game details, so I'm presuming are talking about the in-game feature. But the only profiles I have access to is people from my ladders and on my friends list.
Am I missing something?
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On September 18 2010 03:43 Ballistixz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2010 03:26 MichaelJLowell wrote:On September 18 2010 03:16 Ballistixz wrote:
if people are really that worried about someone seeing there build orders then why not get a extra account or play on a friends account? i mean if its THAT much of a bother then the extra account is worth it. so really shouldn't be that big a deal. That's the point. It's another Battle.net 2.0 inconvenience where the only answer is "pool your resources". This game is seemingly designed around the incorrect belief the Teamliquid audience is such fanboys that they'll spend the extra sixty-plus dollars to get their functionality back. most of the players already have multiple EU/NA/asian server accounts so they can play on those servers tho... so if they can do that i dont see why they cant also practice privately and secretly with a different account as well. i know this game is trying to milk you for all the money you got, that was evident when they decided on the package for HoS and LoV, but what else is there to do. we all know that if blizz do decide to remove the match history thing its not gonna happen any time in soon... or should i remind u of chat channels and all the other features players want in but have to wait possibly months to years for it to be implemented in? so just go with what you got.
Hey, Blizzard pined this game as their attempt to give competitive gaming mainstream appeal in the West. And they can't do that without appealing to the competitive gamers.
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On September 18 2010 04:19 tetracycloide wrote:Maybe I'm just dense but I'm still not getting your point at all, what in these games am I supposed to be noticing that having build orders revealed on custom games would change? The second especially looks like the build order reveals nothing at all, that all the game winning decisions took place during the game.
If you look at your opponent's match history and you see his recent practice games on the map you're about to play have him going barracks barracks supply depot you really aren't going to adapt in any way?
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maybe they should just get rid of the build order slot (or make it unavailable after a day or 2)
I personally don't think it's a big deal, but OP brings up a great point why it shouldn't be there. I love it b/c I can just see how my friends are playing and how they are winning (aka if he's only cheesing/using 1 build to win, and not skill)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 18 2010 04:03 japro wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread, but to summarize my thoughts on the subject:
The build order feature is symmetric so it doesn't favor anyone except that person has a separate training account in which case you still get to see his playstyle from other tournaments he played on his "public account".
Doing research on opponents and being able to use those informations is a relevant skill in a lot of sports/games. The match history therefore actually adds another layer of depht to the game and gives good player another way to capitalize on their skill. Which is good imho.
Analyzing the playstyle of opponents isn't something new for SC. The pros in the korean leagues and also the known names sure do their resarch and prepare for specific opponents. This kind of preparation wasn't as widely available on the lower levels since you wouldn't always find vods/reps of a lesser known opponent. Now we lower level players can also so have that kind of preparation. The fact that lazy players that don't prepare get punished is again good for competitive play.
You do research on PUBLIC games (ie official matches) you dont do research on PRIVATE games.
An example: I had to play a TvT final (Viking Cup vs Failo). The Viking Cup finals happen 2 days after the tournament that leads up to them, so during friday/saturday I looked at his practice games match history.
I saw that he was going 7 rax (or 8 rax I forget) on one map a lot, so I went 10 rax blindly on that map - something I never do - and crushed it. Totally unfair - if I had played normally, I would most likely have lost (almost definitely).
On September 18 2010 03:16 Ballistixz wrote:
if people are really that worried about someone seeing there build orders then why not get a extra account or play on a friends account? i mean if its THAT much of a bother then the extra account is worth it. so really shouldn't be that big a deal.
So lets see, an extra account for each server, then an extra account to smurf each server, then as soon as you need to practice in secret with someone you later on need to play against in a tournament, you need ANOTHER extra account....
Yeah how about no?
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Hey there, I know the post is a bit old but I just wanted to know if Blizzard people are actually aware of this issue. I mean, match history should definitely be hideable, at the very least. We've been through the high level sport metaphor a lot, and clearly it isnt working out : as many people stated, you can check football team's matches but you can't get to see their practice sessions. Simple as that.
So I actually made a post on the official Blizzard forums :
http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/679188272?page=1#7http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/679188272?page=1#7
Feel free to come and post there, I don't really know if it will raise Blizzard's attention, but I think the issue is just huge.
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Okay, sorry to be silly but can someone please teach me how to actually view build orders etc.? I mean literally, how would you go about doing this?
If I check www.battle.net I can find my match history but not info on each game (such as BO and so on). Can someone who feels like being friendly PM me or write it here :p.
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I don't think it gives anyone an unfair advantage, because your opponent should be looking at your BO's and tendencies just as you are doing to them. It just adds another layer to the gameplay of tournaments.
One could also argue that newer players would have the advantage if a system as transparent as this one wasn't in place because everyone knows what a veterans playstyle and timings are like, however the same cannot be said about a player new to the scene. This puts everyone at an equal footing, but this arguement is pretty mute because most if not all pro's have smurf accounts that they practice on if they want some privacy.
Honestly I think its fine as it stands, just play to win and use everything you can to your advantage.
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They just need some privacy options on match history.
Match History
[x] Private
[ ] Viewable by Friends Only
[ ] Public
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Your ladder history (and build orders) should be viewable by anyone. When you ladder you are joining a public pool of players and because of that the results should be public. However I agree 100% that you should be able to hide your private/custom games. Losing a tourney game because someone looked at your practice games and blind-countered you is pretty stupid.
People have this perception that pro SC2 players fly by the seat of their pants. Most of the time they have VERY specific build orders that they have fine tuned and practiced over and over for specific maps/MU's. Getting this information IS NOT AT ALL like scouting a team or watching film of their games. This information is akin to having them tell you what play they are going to run before they do it. This information should be private.
A football team can and should scout their opponents and watch film on their play. However they shouldn't expect the other team to hand them their playbook and tell them what play they are going to call before hiking the ball.
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"In sports you can't video tape what the other team is doing" argument would only make sense if this were an invasion of the player's practice games.
In sports you can still rewatch past games to see strats.
However, I don't think match history should be public and I think replays are what killed the difference between good players and robots in brood war.
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I say NO
Unless you are a one trick pony you should have nothing to hide, NFL teams, Football teams, NBA teams cant hide their "match history".
However if you are basically a gimmick player who has 4 gate'd his way to diamond then i can understand being affraid to get caught with your pants down.
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I don't know what's the issue with this.. Every pro player should have so many ways of opening in every matchup that watching recent games should not help his opponent at all. Why do you need to hide anything?
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On October 03 2010 03:12 Raevin wrote:
I say NO
Unless you are a one trick pony you should have nothing to hide, NFL teams, Football teams, NBA teams cant hide their "match history".
However if you are basically a gimmick player who has 4 gate'd his way to diamond then i can understand being affraid to get caught with your pants down.
Ladder points are meaningless. We are talking about people practicing for tournament games which often involve money. Players practicing for tournaments often will work on unorthadox builds or have a certain map that they will have a specific build for. They will tweek these builds so that the timings on key upgrades/unit counts get done exactly when they want them to.
If you went into a game knowing your opponent was going to banshee rush you could easily stop it. If you knew that at 7 minutes there was going to be muta in your base you could stop it. If a football teams announces "hey guys this a run play!!" before hiking the ball I don't think they would win very many games.
Thing is either Blizzard can fix it or the players will. If you think nothing will be done about it you are crazy. There are already custom maps available where the triggers break the score screen at the end of the match. Trying to look at these games in the match history just results in an error. Look for these to dramatically increase in popularity if Blizzard does not address this issue.
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Its a definite need to block the match history. I mean, match history helped me, with me stealing a PvT build from TTone in my division, which Ive made pretty strong since.
I mean yeah its disappointing for the not pros, but an absolute 100 percent necessity for pros to have it blocked.
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The discussion taking place in much of this thread, regarding strategy and surprise/skill in matches, is interesting to see. There are some strong proponents on both sides of the issue. Many of us define "skilled" a little differently from each other.
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On October 03 2010 03:12 Raevin wrote:
I say NO
Unless you are a one trick pony you should have nothing to hide, NFL teams, Football teams, NBA teams cant hide their "match history".
However if you are basically a gimmick player who has 4 gate'd his way to diamond then i can understand being affraid to get caught with your pants down.
Esports are in stake here, not ladder. Of course there are players out there that always do the same things, and those won't go far anyway. But one shouldnt have access to all the private custom games you do to prepare for one event.
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Canada11475 Posts
Blah. Absolutely the match history should be hidden or gone.
People with your sports analogies, remember you can study opponents public games. The televised games. Absolutely. But you can not walk into their practices with a video recorder. So, please stop with the completely inapplicable comparisons.
And someone else got it right. It's equivalent to your team shouting their next play to the other team. Sure, fine if you want to play head games with your opponent. But it's kinda hard when you can't control it except using custom maps.
And for the people that want the match history kept. What's the advantage really? You can study their public games all you want. Why do you want to see their practices? Something that no sports team would tolerate.
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Or you can use the build order hider and have nothing revealed..
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Canada11475 Posts
Right, but you also cannot use the ladder. Seems a rather round about way to fix something that could just be fixed on Blizzards end. It's quite clearly a bad idea. Or isn't it? Of what purpose is there to not have the build order hidden? There are all those public games that you are perfectly able to study.
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EPT
