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On September 16 2010 03:04 avilo wrote:
What this means is b4 any tournament, you can look up your opponent, and study their build order, and know how they are most likely going to play, as well as know the possible counter deviation they may do.
This is not true, What it imeans is you can look at your opponent and see what he practiced in the past, not what he will do in the future.
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The problem with the "in other sports" argument is that training tapes arent made public. Watching tape on your opponent is more like watching vods of tournament matches. (Replays already push it past the analogy, but atleast replays have a huge upside). This is more like getting the security cam vids of your opponents training camp, or their training logs. In sc2 , you are always training in a public, logged environment.
The issue is not with players studying their opponents, it is the lack of privacy to experiment and develop surprise builds. At minimum, custom games should not be logged.
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On September 16 2010 06:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
But then you're encouraging people to practice things they never intend to use?? How is that a good thing? Jesus christ this is stupid.
Who said about NEVER intending to use? You might not use it against that specific opponent but later on. Lotze did the same build on Lost Temple which Idra saw his match history for and he completely changed it up and worked out for him. Guess he's a dumbass.
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Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that.
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On September 16 2010 06:30 R3d wrote:
Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that.
people that have no idea how high level play works are so funny 
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what it boils down to is the build order thing is a great disadvantage to certain types of players (like idra).
say you are zerg and you are going to face a protoss. you literally watch every pvz hes ever played and notice that he has never ever 2 gated in his life (any map). This gives you a sense of security that would otherwise never be possible, as you can probably 14 pool 15 hatch or even hatch first. Either what you can do as that protoss player is try and mindgame the zerg and do a 2 gate (which you have never practiced and cannot practice on your account without the zerg player seeing it) or you can just try and do a build that counters whatever you see the zerg doing regularly. It makes players who do crazy shit even more dangerous because not only can u not tell what they will do, but they have an even better idea of how to counter a player with a more predictable, solid style. there should definitely be a way to set match history to private or just remove the build order tab in general (although seeing the length of game history can be dumb too)
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On September 16 2010 06:28 Hrrrrm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:24 infinity2k9 wrote:
But then you're encouraging people to practice things they never intend to use?? How is that a good thing? Jesus christ this is stupid. Who said about NEVER intending to use? You might not use it against that specific opponent but later on. Lotze did the same build on Lost Temple which Idra saw his match history for and he completely changed it up and worked out for him. Guess he's a dumbass.
But this should not even be a fucking element to consider in the first place! If you want to practice 100 games with the same build order on same map why can't you... there is already mindgames in play just by knowing your opponents style and good game sense (see: Flash vs Jaedong OSL finals), you don't need this completely unnecessary metagame involved at all, practice replays in BW were guarded for good reason. Every single competitive player will say they want to hide build orders in custom games, every one of them.
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It adds for very interesting metagame. The ability to affect your opponent's build by having your match history shown, is just awesome. There's no reason you can't put their spy tactic to work against them. + Show Spoiler +Torch's games, and Idra's game two just shows how you can use it against them.
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It's kinda sad that blizzard didn't realize how bad this would be. Hopefully they allow you to hide at least custom game build orders.
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who cares if you can study your opponent? What do you think professional boxers do, what do you think professionals of any sport do? Thats right they watch recordings of their opponents, effectively the replays, match history sharing is something that will help the game evolve faster, and smoother, I am sorry you feel you can't adapt and need to rely on a "super secret strat" get over it.
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On September 16 2010 06:30 R3d wrote:
Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that.
It makes for boring games.
I'd rather see two top players go against each other using true skill instead of mind games to win.
When two NFL teams play; sure they have film to study and exploit weaknesses of their opponents game. But the NFL game doesn't end if three void rays fly over the stadium for one play.
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The problem is that
1) People will simply buy other accounts to bypass this if they are dedicated enough, making it unfair for some players who don't wish to shell out money and can't see opposing build orders
2) People can't construct specific builds for specific maps. Remember when we saw an 8 rax 8 refin 8 fact (which failed, but cool nonetheless) build? Yeah, shit like that would NEVER be seen. Is it cheesy? Yes. But innovative. And that shit needs practice and timing to figure things out.
Sure, you can pretend you're going to do that build and then do another different one, but then you never got to use the build you originally intended. How lame is that.
I'm going to reiterate what I originally proposed. Have an option to block all info for custom games only.
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On September 16 2010 06:51 Retsukage wrote:
who cares if you can study your opponent? What do you think professional boxers do, what do you think professionals of any sport do? Thats right they watch recordings of their opponents, effectively the replays, match history sharing is something that will help the game evolve faster, and smoother, I am sorry you feel you can't adapt and need to rely on a "super secret strat" get over it.
you obviously do not understand the actual problem here...
let's use a BW analogy: you're talking about someone watching a VOD of a proleague match to study. The match history/build order thing is like Flash going into Hwaseung Oz's practice house and seeing all the builds Jaedong is doing in preparation for their OSL finals.
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wtf does it matter in a few years ALL BUILD ORDERS WILL BE ON LIQUIPEDIA!
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Get rid? Are you kidding me? Removing a feature like that would be straight up idiotic. Allowing people to turn it off is the farthest I'd allow.
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I definitely agree with making it hide-able. Leave it on by default and toggle hide should you desire. Full support on that.
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On September 16 2010 06:52 Mutarisk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 06:30 R3d wrote:
Many of you are missing a very key point to this argument. Yes, your opponent can study your BO's, but YOU can study THEIRS as well. I'm pretty sure this evens out in terms of viewable BO fairness. If you're really not going to adapt to your opponent during a game, rely on BO entirely, and then lose, it is your own fault. If you're worried that your opponent is going to slave over your BO tab then you need to sit your ass down in front of a screen and study theirs. Don't whine.
(If you wanna play psychological games, assuming your opponent knows you're going to do something, so you change, but you think your opponent knows you'll change so you'll do your original build etc. Well that evens out too, you can play the same games your opponent does instead of actually scouting and adapting)
BO's are a helpful aspect, make no mistake. You are also a foolish player if you believe that your "killer BO" that you developed on a secret account is going to win you game after game. Your opponent WILL adapt to it if they have any skill at SC2 or you will have to adapt your BO as you go. Simple as that. It makes for boring games. I'd rather see two top players go against each other using true skill instead of mind games to win. When two NFL teams play; sure they have film to study and exploit weaknesses of their opponents game. But the NFL game doesn't end if three void rays fly over the stadium for one play.
There are shut outs in NFL games though. Who knows how many of those are due to studying game film.
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On September 16 2010 03:09 Aeyn wrote:
They can keep the match history, but just get rid of the build order tab.
agreed. as long as the build order could be hidden or removed i'm all for it. match history--win, loss is fine but the build order is so important to pro players, revealing this just hampers any ladder play for any competitive gamer. And they shouldn't be bereft of any ladder action!
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On September 16 2010 06:53 FabledIntegral wrote:
The problem is that
1) People will simply buy other accounts to bypass this if they are dedicated enough, making it unfair for some players who don't wish to shell out money and can't see opposing build orders
2) People can't construct specific builds for specific maps. Remember when we saw an 8 rax 8 refin 8 fact (which failed, but cool nonetheless) build? Yeah, shit like that would NEVER be seen. Is it cheesy? Yes. But innovative. And that shit needs practice and timing to figure things out.
Sure, you can pretend you're going to do that build and then do another different one, but then you never got to use the build you originally intended. How lame is that.
I'm going to reiterate what I originally proposed. Have an option to block all info for custom games only.
Even other accounts will be worked out after a while from hotkey patterns and such if its played on ladder or any replays get our, so basically the only result is forcing people to repeatedly buy new copies of the game just to be able to practice. Ridiculous.
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I cannot believe this issue is even debatable. You should have the right to hide your match history. Sure it is fair that you scout your opponent by watching his replays in competition because it is the same way in every other sports you can study your opponent's PUBLIC performance. Having the right to see match history and BO is the same as sitting in their practice session everyday and listening to what their coaches tell the players before every match.
This spying thing in esport is very powerful where players can change up the game easier compare to tennis for example. In tennis even if you know what your opponent is going to do it is hard to counter because you can't add things to your game that easily. Whereas if you know he likes to 2 gate you can go pool before hatch. You think it is more interesting because of mind games before match?? I would much rather see mind games DURING matches.
The people who support this match history/BO availability are flat out morons and that is all I have to say about this.
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EPT
