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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
Because you do not have to neither film every training you do nor upload the whole shit onto the webz. Replays of competitive matches are viewable as replays that's comparable to the common sports.
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This feature should be optional. Creative players should be rewarded for there creativity and not be robbed instantly when they use a new bo. With this system you will get alot of mediocre player using this feature to copy bo's that they don't understand why they work but they will still manage to win using it. That's terrible, I don't understand why anyone would want something like that. SC2's competative life is in jeopardy with this feature.
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it's fine (better actually) as it is
The more people see the numbers, the faster tactics (and counter tactics ofc) will improve
Also the fact that both can see each other's stats adds another layer of complexity and pregame mind game and that's fine.
More people will try to get to their opponents shoes to find out how their own bo is exploitable.
Would be nice to move from fixed and standard BOs to a more fluid and adaptable game play.
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I think, being able to see other people's bos is a OK thing, it lessens the suprise element in tourneys, and encourages faster growth in strategy. Besides, it only really goes to about 8:00's. The only thing i'm worried about, is that people would use smurfs to pratice, would get a small advantage. I'm kinda torn on it. But i do like being able to check abd see if people are cheesing every game.
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I have to say it's fine. Once the game is developed everyone will know the common BOs anyway. It's like being able to read your opponent's move lists and combo lists before the start of a fighting game match - everyone already knows it.
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What about having the build order only be displayed for a single hour after the game is played, so that your opponent can view it, and some other of your recent games.... well that might require a few hours. Or have it so that only your last 3 games have their build orders showing, so if you're going into a tourney you can easily mask by either faking or just starting and quitting games. This way once again whoever played against you recently on ladder or w/e can see what you did to them.
Although what I honestly prefer is my originally proposal - option to turn it off for custom games only.
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It can already be disabled for practice (custom) games by using the maps linked on the first page of this thread.
It should remain enabled for ladder matches. Ladder games are public information.
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On September 16 2010 08:04 RiOrius wrote:
It can already be disabled for practice (custom) games by using the maps linked on the first page of this thread.
It should remain enabled for ladder matches. Ladder games are public information.
Oh, I thought it was some mod or something, and I didn't want to set off warden. So that is just an alternative set of maps? How does it disable the history?
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I really can't see any great advantage in making match history public involuntarily the way it is now. In terms of the speed of the evolution of strategy and helping newer players, you can still watch casted games, tournaments and replays. The difference with those is the player chooses to make them available.
I definitely think Blizzard should give the user control.
People make some good points above but even so, I'm not convinced. I just don't think the utility outweighs the problems. 2c.
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On September 16 2010 08:04 RiOrius wrote:
It should remain enabled for ladder matches. Ladder games are public information.
The results of the ladder games are public information, yes, but why should the entire game be public? Shouldn't creative players get some time with their strategy before it leaks and spreads like wildfire?
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On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing.
I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation.
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I think it should be only for the player themselves to see. I don't care about other peoples history anyways, I just like going through mine to calculate race win percentages or to browse past opponents.
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On September 16 2010 08:42 csfield wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation.
But you can't go in on them practicing a particular strategy to use against you. You can look at their past games, it's completely different, been reiterated a thousand times in this thread, so please stop people saying random crap like this.
You can always watch past matches for players, no one is stopping you from doing that. But it's illegal to steal another team's playbook or to watch their practice matches they do in privacy. You can only see their public plays, just like you can see other players public plays in tournies, etc. This is concerning practice.
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Keep the history but hide the build order, make it so only the players/spectators of the match can see the BO.
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I don't see how it matters. IdrA demonstrated really well that it can work against you just as much as for you. With that in mind why bother?
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Imho they should remove it (from custom games).
I honestly dont get the people who say "But you can get Vods/replays anyway".
Yeah?
How do you get the replays from my practice partner, where I try a new build, I never tried in a tournament before (no Vods available)?
"Hey X, I am Ys next opponent in <tourney>. I heard you are his friend & practicepartner. Do you mind giving me your replays from your practice games, so I can figure out his playstyle & timings so I can beat him?"
I am 99% sure that you won't get that replay.
Of course it's not possible to hide some basic facts like "Idra likes to macro". From Vods you can deduce his "basic" openings but not his whole strategy & timings.
But new developed strategies (which change every week in sc2) and other strange stuff will be impossible to learn.
Which is good for the game. I want to be surprised. I cannot see "mindgames" via a stream.
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I don't think it should be hideable for everyone. Mainly because everyone and there mother would do it "jut because they can".
Def for anyone remotely competitive though.
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Off Topic: I've just played a game where I won but it didnt show up on my match history and I might not be count as a win for me(didnt pay attention to my wins number before the game), but it showed up on my opponent's match history and counted as a loss for him.
Is this just a bug, or I need to report it to Blizzard to get my win back?
Thanks guys.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 16 2010 08:42 csfield wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation.
This argument is completely half baked, I don't understand how you people keep propping it up.
You can watch people's matches. As in, you study the official games they've played. That is already possible through tournament replay packs. What's currently in place is equivalent to video taping their practice, which is absolutely, 100% not allowed in any sports. Do you people even play sports? The old system was like professional sports, this is not.
As for it developing the direction of strategies quicker, I disagree. It encourages sniping more than it encourages the creation of strong base strategies. Sometimes the two coincide (Bisu vs. sAviOr) but most of the time a snipe build is only useful for that one player alone because they're so specific. I've done it in CS based off of former matches, but I would never spy on someone's scrims to create a counter strategy for it. That may actually stifle creative play because people will rely on basic builds that can't be as easily countered. It also means that these builds are far less streamlined.
You look at their match history and you can literally tell how many units they have at X:XX time. Put a string for 4-5 similar games in a row together and you can create a perfect timing push 100% specific to what they're doing. You can even do it blindly because you know what they've been getting ready for. They can do the same to you, but in this case it favors the worse player who is less likely to win in an honest game.
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On September 16 2010 08:12 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 08:04 RiOrius wrote:
It can already be disabled for practice (custom) games by using the maps linked on the first page of this thread.
It should remain enabled for ladder matches. Ladder games are public information. Oh, I thought it was some mod or something, and I didn't want to set off warden. So that is just an alternative set of maps? How does it disable the history?
The information on the game is stored via the map, then submitted to B.Net at the end. Teddyman figured out how to turn the submission off so B.Net ends up with no information on the game.
Just a few notes:
They are maps
They are safe
They aren't a trigger for Warden, they do not alter your game files or client
They can be found on EU and US by searching for "BO Hider"
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EPT
