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On September 16 2010 18:00 Drakan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. rofl... Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent in soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis and etc etc? Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent 30 food BO in SC2? If you know the answers you should know why is a bad thing. It's not even comparable.
Match history in SC2 It's like having soccer practices with cameras all around you and all that info is out there for free for every single opponent in your league to see...
but I still dont get why it's a bad thing
sup boxing/mma//any combat sport
//also
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120
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Haven't there been times when match history was used to look at suspected drop hackers, leading to reporting them? Removing match history, or letting people hide it, will let these serial drop hackers go undetected a lot easier ...
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Everyone has access and so there is no argument to be made for any "unfairness".
Your argument is about as strong as someone who claims "In PvP dark templars are too strong and so should be nerfed"
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I say keep match history.
If the people who win tournaments are proficient at winging it combined with studying their opponent, congratulations, they won a tournament like any sports team does.
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Totally agree with the OP.
At least one should be able to hide it if he likes.
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Well you cant really rely upon "studying" a players build by looking at the build order in the match history because:
You dont know how much scouting information the players in the game has, or how the early game went (rushes or mistakes) or if any buildings are proxied in certain locations
by just seeing "bunker" at 20 supply could either mean a defensive or aggressive bunker
only way to know how a player builds and reacts in certain situations is to watch a lot of their replays and/or play vs them
by just studying the build order given in the match history i think you might cripple yourself and underrestimate your oppoenent
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This argument is completely half baked, I don't understand how you people keep propping it up. You can watch people's matches. As in, you study the official games they've played. That is already possible through tournament replay packs. What's currently in place is equivalent to video taping their practice, which is absolutely, 100% not allowed in any sports. Do you people even play sports? The old system was like professional sports, this is not.
And I can't believe how the football & it being illegal to tape pratices keeps coming up...
As it stands, right now, all of this BO information is PUBLIC INFORMATION. It is recorded, automatically, every game we play. And freely viewable by anyone wanting to view it.
If only one player had access to BO's and nobody else did, I'd be pissed off. If someone had hacked, cheated, stolen, whatever to get it, I'd be 100% in support of their expulsion from a tourney. But thats not the case...every single player has this advantage (lol) available to them.
The only negative is it will prevent some unknown from coming up with some outrageous cheese to win a tourney off of...which, lets face it, none of us want to watch streams/VoDs of some idiot cheesing his way to $85K - we'd all be royally pissed off.
Discussing the removal or non-removal of course is fine...but the analogies are getting fucking retarded. Its not anagalous to anything...it is people using public information to their own advantage (or, as we've seen, detriment).
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On September 16 2010 22:06 Pulimuli wrote:
Well you cant really rely upon "studying" a players build by looking at the build order in the match history because:
You dont know how much scouting information the players in the game has, or how the early game went (rushes or mistakes) or if any buildings are proxied in certain locations
by just seeing "bunker" at 20 supply could either mean a defensive or aggressive bunker
only way to know how a player builds and reacts in certain situations is to watch a lot of their replays and/or play vs them
by just studying the build order given in the match history i think you might cripple yourself and underrestimate your oppoenent
Yeah sure there are a lot of situations where it wont be very useful, but if for example you're playing a PvP in a tournament. If you look at your opponents history and see 10 PvP games in a row where he built pylon forge pylon pylon cannon cannon cannon cannon cannon, you can pretty much expect some cannon rush cheese. This could have saved ReXZanDarke in game 2 vs inca in the GSL.
I think the problem isn't really match history, it's more lack of smurf accounts. It's unfair that someone can gain an advantage if they're willing to spend an extra $60 on a secret account.
edit: If nobody could buy an extra account, I wouldn't care about this, it's the fact that it is possible to work around, just only for money.
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Just do it back as it was in beta - only 5 of them are shown in public and the full list can only be seen either by yourself or realID friends.
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On September 16 2010 23:23 GoDannY wrote:
Just do it back as it was in beta - only 5 of them are shown in public and the full list can only be seen either by yourself or realID friends.
To see someones profile you have to add them as a friend or play them in a match right?
I keep accidentally thinking that "oh this sucks because there is a public place on b.net where the community connects", but then I remember there are no chat rooms. I weep at the void that is b.net2.0
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 16 2010 19:08 dogabutila wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 18:00 Drakan wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. rofl... Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent in soccer/basketball/baseball/tennis and etc etc? Do you know all the trouble that means to study your opponent 30 food BO in SC2? If you know the answers you should know why is a bad thing. It's not even comparable.
Match history in SC2 It's like having soccer practices with cameras all around you and all that info is out there for free for every single opponent in your league to see...
but I still dont get why it's a bad thing sup boxing/mma//any combat sport //also http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=153120
Uhm no, private practice is still private in MMA/boxing etc. Its not private in SC2 and thats the point.
On September 16 2010 21:51 Trang wrote:
Haven't there been times when match history was used to look at suspected drop hackers, leading to reporting them? Removing match history, or letting people hide it, will let these serial drop hackers go undetected a lot easier ...
Just make custom games private then =o
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On September 17 2010 00:52 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Uhm no, private practice is still private in MMA/boxing etc. Its not private in SC2 and thats the point.
I'd love to hear an argument for removing the match history that isn't just an analogy to another sport. What, specifically, about seeing the match history in SC2 makes it bad for the game overall and not just bad for 'surprise' build orders at a pro level and why? Often references to SC1 practice houses are made and how hard team organizers work to keep build orders and replays private. This isn't an argument for keeping them private in the SC2 though, it's just an appeal to maintain the status quo.
If build orders remain public I think we'd see fewer matches where a player is caught off guard by something way out of left field and just looses because they've never had to deal with that before. I think this is a good thing because it would promote players who are well rounded and prepare over those that prepare a strategy tailored for a specific purpose. As a spectator I enjoy this more because I'd rather see a protracted macro battle that focuses on subtleties like timing and positioning. In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Instead of having to wait between tournaments to find out what's new the information is available right away. The faster the information is available the sooner pros can respond to it and come up with counters the sooner we can get over fad-of-the-month builds like 5 rax reapers and 4 gate pushes.
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Match history levels the playing field a little bit for people that are casted vs people that aren't.
+ Show Spoiler +
Since looking at Lotzes builds probably cost Idra the match you don't really have any evidence that it gives someone an advantage.
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I approve of this thread.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 16 2010 21:58 leve15 wrote:
I say keep match history.
If the people who win tournaments are proficient at winging it combined with studying their opponent, congratulations, they won a tournament like any sports team does.
Professional sports teams don't "wing it."
What the god damn hell is wrong with you people? NFL teams have every single play pre-determined for at least their first offensive series, and usually more. They're able to run those plays because the OTHER TEAMS DON'T SPY ON THEIR PRACTICE.
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"Winging it" leads to WORSE play. Streamlined, sophisticated builds with lots of intricacies are what you want in ESPORTS. When people improvise, it's obviously less predictable but it's also sloppy, unrefined play. The advancement of strategy comes when top players are able to see a tangible benefit from introducing new strategies. If their efforts are immediately counter, then they'll just stick to conservative builds that are less counterable and we won't see any real innovation at all.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game.
Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation.
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Doesn't this actually lead to MORE innovation? I mean, consider professional chess. Every single move is known for every game ever played by any ranked player. It doesn't make cheese more popular. It doesn't make the games shittier. In fact, it's improved the build orders to the point of near perfection in all variations.
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They should just make it so you have to be friends to see additional match history information, like build orders.
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custom games should be private, ladder games are fine being public. Basically what jinro said - any competitive non-inhouse match is free game to tape, watch, etc, just like watching videos of the Patriots games against different teams to try and familiarize your team with their plays. Custom games should be equivalent to the private practices, and build orders or even match history for them should not be viewable.
Personally I like being able to stalk opponents who cheese me, cause I want to know answers to questions like "do they 6rax proxy reaper EVERY game?"
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How do you even view the build order of other people if you're not friends with them... or even search Users IDs to view their profile on battle.net?
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EPT
