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On September 16 2010 10:19 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 08:42 csfield wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation. This argument is completely half baked, I don't understand how you people keep propping it up. You can watch people's matches. As in, you study the official games they've played. That is already possible through tournament replay packs. What's currently in place is equivalent to video taping their practice, which is absolutely, 100% not allowed in any sports. Do you people even play sports? The old system was like professional sports, this is not.
Wouldn't video taping their practice be watching their practice game replays instead?
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On September 17 2010 02:16 nexus2 wrote:
How do you even view the build order of other people if you're not friends with them... or even search Users IDs to view their profile on battle.net?
In a tournament in korea, it's likely you or someone you know has bumped into your opponents on the ladder.
+ Show Spoiler +
Lotze was also practicing against his Prime teammate playing "idra style" quite a lot to prep for the matches against idra. The spying problem isn't one-sided.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:21 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 10:19 Jibba wrote:On September 16 2010 08:42 csfield wrote:On September 16 2010 03:06 Deadlyfish wrote:
I think it's part of the strategy. In sports you study your opponent aswell, you watch some of his matches and prepare yourself for his style of play.
I dont get why it's a bad thing. I agree. You can look up your opponents' strategies and openings in chess. It's called preparation. This argument is completely half baked, I don't understand how you people keep propping it up. You can watch people's matches. As in, you study the official games they've played. That is already possible through tournament replay packs. What's currently in place is equivalent to video taping their practice, which is absolutely, 100% not allowed in any sports. Do you people even play sports? The old system was like professional sports, this is not. Wouldn't video taping their practice be watching their practice game replays instead?
Then it's like stealing the game plan or playbook, which is also a pretty huge rule and ethics violation.
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On September 17 2010 02:22 sylverfyre wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:16 nexus2 wrote:
How do you even view the build order of other people if you're not friends with them... or even search Users IDs to view their profile on battle.net? In a tournament in korea, it's likely you or someone you know has bumped into your opponents on the ladder. + Show Spoiler +
Lotze was also practicing against his Prime teammate playing "idra style" quite a lot to prep for the matches against idra. The spying problem isn't one-sided.
ok i see... is there anyway to search for people's profile on the web to check out their 1v1 stats record?
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Playing a ladder match online isn't practice. It's a match, like a regular season game. Comparing that to practice is a terrible analogy.
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I'd be happy with just having the option to disable it.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 17 2010 02:33 andrewlt wrote:
Playing a ladder match online isn't practice. It's a match, like a regular season game. Comparing that to practice is a terrible analogy.
No one considers the ladder in any such way, except the delusional folks at Blizzard who made Bnet 2.0.
In CS terms, the ladder is equivalent to OGL.
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On September 17 2010 02:33 andrewlt wrote:
Playing a ladder match online isn't practice. It's a match, like a regular season game. Comparing that to practice is a terrible analogy.
Sure, but in-house custom games SHOULD be comparable to practices. Ladder matches being viewable are fine by me, in fact I personally would be very opposed to them being hide-able.
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On September 17 2010 02:01 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2010 21:58 leve15 wrote:
I say keep match history.
If the people who win tournaments are proficient at winging it combined with studying their opponent, congratulations, they won a tournament like any sports team does. Professional sports teams don't "wing it." What the god damn hell is wrong with you people? NFL teams have every single play pre-determined for at least their first offensive series, and usually more. They're able to run those plays because the OTHER TEAMS DON'T SPY ON THEIR PRACTICE. asdfasfdsafasfdasfasfa "Winging it" leads to WORSE play. Streamlined, sophisticated builds with lots of intricacies are what you want in ESPORTS. When people improvise, it's obviously less predictable but it's also sloppy, unrefined play. The advancement of strategy comes when top players are able to see a tangible benefit from introducing new strategies. If their efforts are immediately counter, then they'll just stick to conservative builds that are less counterable and we won't see any real innovation at all.
I don't think other professional sports offer a good analogy. Football is one of the few that uses pre-determined plays and even that is a relatively new development in the history of football. Plus if they get a big penalty and end up with 3rd and 20 they probably will be winging it at that point.
I do think you have a point about it hindering players from devising new builds. I don't think it's a problem just yet because you have well known players with lots of casts and replay packs available playing relative unknowns but I can see how it would be a problem in the long run. I imagine a lot of players already have private practice accounts but that introduces the headache of keeping it secret. They have to give it out to some people so they have people to practice against.
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On September 17 2010 02:03 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation.
So I suggest we stop talking about this in terms of analogies and make some direct arguments and you respond with an analogy that makes even less sense?
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On September 17 2010 05:50 tetracycloide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:03 Jibba wrote:On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation. So I suggest we stop talking about this in terms of analogies and make some direct arguments and you respond with an analogy that makes even less sense?
I really do not care about all this grand usage of "evolution of the game" you are throwing around. You should have the option to conceal personal information. BO is personal information and if they wish to keep it hidden they should have the right to do so.
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BO is not personal information. It is a record of games you played on Blizzard's network. Your opponent could always just release the replay as well. No one can have a reasonable expectation of privacy on B.net.
Having open build orders gives no one a clear advantage. They are open to everyone. They can also help foster the growing e-sports scene by providing even more information to fans about their favorite players.
Being able to scout your opponent will not result in an auto-win. You have to execute in the game. Scouting even backfired against Idra. People are getting way too excited from a couple comments Artosis/Tasteless made during a GSL cast.
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Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation.
LOL.
<3.
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United States22883 Posts
On September 17 2010 05:50 tetracycloide wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 02:03 Jibba wrote:On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation. So I suggest we stop talking about this in terms of analogies and make some direct arguments and you respond with an analogy that makes even less sense?
The analogies work, you just don't like them because they don't support your argument. In fact, the football analogy is perfect. What's even worse about your posting is that I've explained in detail multiple times why it's a problem but you continue to ignore those parts of my posts.
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Sweet! Thanks for the idea! Now I'm going to look at my opponents match history for my tournament this weekend! I can't believe I never thought of this.
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I plan to discuss this on WoC this week because I believe the exact opposite of the OP. Personally, I do feel it has an effect on the early stages of SC2 in a competitive setting... but ultimate, it's going to make the pros better players.
Let's take the Idra game for example (GSL RO32). He should have won game 2. He was EXPECTING the opponent to use a build, and his opponent played directly into his hands. Instead the opponent was making that SG in the SW corner and it was game over. Will Idra ever not scout there again? Did Idra put HIMSELF at a disadvantage by assuming his opponent would do what he was studying.
I think there's an argument for both sides, but ultimately I believe the game will benefit from it in the long run.
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Ladder games should be public. Tournaments should be public.
Custom games should be private.
This thread should be locked. Its been argued to death. Everyone agrees on the fundamental point: players need a way to practice in secret.
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I think its fine, not like you do the same build order for every match up, for every player. You build what you think will work after scouting your opponent. For example, if some one did 3rax push every game they would win... wait a minute
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On September 17 2010 07:34 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2010 05:50 tetracycloide wrote:On September 17 2010 02:03 Jibba wrote:On September 17 2010 01:11 tetracycloide wrote:
In the long term I think revealed BOs will result in much faster evolutions of the game. Just like eliminating all patent laws would create innovation. So I suggest we stop talking about this in terms of analogies and make some direct arguments and you respond with an analogy that makes even less sense? The analogies work, you just don't like them because they don't support your argument. In fact, the football analogy is perfect. What's even worse about your posting is that I've explained in detail multiple times why it's a problem but you continue to ignore those parts of my posts.
I don't like analogies because they don't support any argument. What may or may not work in football or baseball or soccer or MMA or whatever other sport is being used is completely irrelevant. Football is a particularly bad example because it's a play based game.
You are right though, you did make an actual point without any analogies:
On September 17 2010 02:01 Jibba wrote:
"Winging it" leads to WORSE play. Streamlined, sophisticated builds with lots of intricacies are what you want in ESPORTS. When people improvise, it's obviously less predictable but it's also sloppy, unrefined play. The advancement of strategy comes when top players are able to see a tangible benefit from introducing new strategies. If their efforts are immediately counter, then they'll just stick to conservative builds that are less counterable and we won't see any real innovation at all.
I think improvisation and adaptation is the mark of a good player and a well played game. You're not really suggesting they're a bad thing actually, you're just suggesting they should happen between tournaments in constructing a build. I think the game would be more interesting if they took place during the matches instead and that's what I think revealed build orders does.
You make another good point about hiding custom games by editing maps. If the option to practice without it is there then why make it so hard to get to? Just make it a check box on game creation or don't give people the option, why include it but leave it obscure?
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EPT
