Yeah, except djWheat streams his master NA ladder play many many days a week, and talks through scenarios and various things he encounters as he improves both his playing skill and knowledge of the game.
Wheat is in Masters? Last time I checked he was in Platinum in 1v1. I saw him streaming about a month or two ago on an alt account, but again he was in Platinum on that one, too.
Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2.
They have everything to do with SC2, why do you think every event, concert, tournament, sports event, musical etc etc has been done in front a live crowd since the early 1900s? You think this is a coincidence somehow?
1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove.
Every big sports organization spends millions upon millions on raw production, you think they love throwing money away? You think the NFL, NBA, MLB, FIFA, UEFA and every other major organization is just doing this for kicks and lulz? You dont think they have calculated how much it means that these events are portrayed as a major deal, that you believe in these stars. At the end of the day, Michael Jordan is just a guy who bounced a ball around, but because of how fame was handled he is regarded as one of the most treasured people who has ever lived. He is perhaps the role model for every black out there. Are you really this naive that you think its because he was just good at basketball?
2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up.
Here is a news flash, nobody cares about the hardcore UFC fans who know all the techniques, majority of fans just want to see a good brawl. Nobody cares about the people who calculate all the insane baseball stats, the majority just wants their team to win. Very few hardcore fans care what LeBron James FG percentage is this year, most fans just want to see him win (or lose depending if you are from Cleveland).
Every sport has a niche crowd, small hardcore that "appriciate" the "art", these fans often act superior to others and behave as if they are above other fans because they enjoy the thing in a different way.
3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above.
There is having an opinion, then there is just being wrong. This is the latter. Crowd is everything at events, as i already pointed out for you, crowds have always been a huge part of any event, regardless of what it was.
I should not even have to explain any of this to you, just looking back and thinking for a second you should have realized just how utterly important a crowd is.
To me it just looks like you are trying to latch on to a well respected and well liked member of TL, maybe to gain some notoriety or what not because your supposed arguments here are paper thin weak. I refuse to believe that you really think any of those 3 parts, especially disregarding the crowd/audience is down right shocking.
On April 24 2012 03:17 Technique wrote: So you diss tasteless for not knowing anything and then you name wheat, really dude?
Imo Wheat knows more about the game atm than Tasteless and he does better play by play. Tasteless seems like an awesome guy but if you listen to his casting objectively it's not that good.
From ridiculous statements like that i get the feeling that people don't understand that when he asks a question to artosis it doesn't actually mean he doesn't know what's happening. He just wants the listeners to hear the answers.
DjWheat just knows what people tell him, he has very little actual insight of his own, just like every other caster out there that has never been anywhere near close to being a competitive rts player. So to say he knows more then tasteless is really silly, to say the least. Even if tasteless is hardly playing now (which i don't know if he is or is not), he's just a team player in casting.
Yeah, except djWheat streams his master NA ladder play many many days a week, and talks through scenarios and various things he encounters as he improves both his playing skill and knowledge of the game. He's putting in a shitload of time considering his background with shooters, and I think it is showing in the quality of his casting. His casts with Grubby during this past weekend were my favorite casts honestly.
Last time I checked (which was a week ago), he was in Platinum and having problems with that.
On April 24 2012 03:17 Technique wrote: So you diss tasteless for not knowing anything and then you name wheat, really dude?
Imo Wheat knows more about the game atm than Tasteless and he does better play by play. Tasteless seems like an awesome guy but if you listen to his casting objectively it's not that good.
From ridiculous statements like that i get the feeling that people don't understand that when he asks a question to artosis it doesn't actually mean he doesn't know what's happening. He just wants the listeners to hear the answers.
DjWheat just knows what people tell him, he has very little actual insight of his own, just like every other caster out there that has never been anywhere near close to being a competitive rts player. So to say he knows more then tasteless is really silly, to say the least. Even if tasteless is hardly playing now (which i don't know if he is or is not), he's just a team player in casting.
Yeah, except djWheat streams his master NA ladder play many many days a week, and talks through scenarios and various things he encounters as he improves both his playing skill and knowledge of the game. He's putting in a shitload of time considering his background with shooters, and I think it is showing in the quality of his casting. His casts with Grubby during this past weekend were my favorite casts honestly.
Last time I checked (which was a week ago), he was in Platinum and having problems with that.
Does it matter? Reality check..... Hmm nope, not at all
On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote: MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value.
I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
I understand your perspective, but you're in a very small minority. Most people don't have the time or the talent to learn the game well enough to really appreciate the subtleties of a certain build. It's really condescending to imply that you have to be a pro player to be a fan of SC2. The people who paid 30$ for DH tickets aren't fans of SC2? Not only is it condescending, it's also wrong.
No, I'm not good enough at SC2 to typically enjoy watching a VOD without commentary and without knowing who the players are, just watching the game. There's more that goes into creating an enjoyable viewer experience than just the most minor details that make some players stand out to you. Good casters add to the enjoyment, a good atmosphere at a live event adds to the enjoyment and so does a good storyline (Korean vs foreigner in his home town). There's nothing wrong with that and it also doesn't mean that the quality of play is irrelevant. It's obvious that the starting field at DH was a lot weaker than at MLG and that was a minus for DH, the other parts made up for it though. I don't think it was the best event ever, mostly because of the players and the games, but it was still more enjoyable for me than MLG.
If I go see a live music performance and there's a good atmosphere then I'm going to have a much better time than I would listening to a technically more proficient performance at home on my stereo, even if it's an instrument that I play well enough to appreciate the difference. It's about having an experience, not just being a robot looking at someone's performance. Music isn't just about technique and SC2 is entertainment just as much as it is a game about minor details.
Totally agree. Tyler's sarcastic comments are just showing off his elitism. I don't blame him, really. It's a product of the direct communication between fans and pros e-sports has grown up with. The only reason you don't see it rear its ugly head in the context of other sports is because they lack this communication.
He sounds elitist because he actually is elite compared to you and the vast majority of casual starcraft spectators. When you have tons of experience and knowledge about something, you tend to have different standards. There are many music fans that go to concerts and are disappointed if the band doesn't have an energetic live show banging on trash cans or running around like idiots. It could be Paul Gilbert shredding for his life but if that's all there is to it then it will only satisfy diehard music/guitar fans.
Saying some people prefer watching "white people" is a silly oversimplification and doesn't really come close to the real explanation of why some people enjoy seeing foreigners compete against Koreans. His comment was patronizing, that's why I called it elitist. You certainly don't have to be an elitist just because you're elite (snobby might be a more accurate term, not that it really matters). Tyler understands this very well but he was probably just reading some comments he found annoying, so he responds with a one-liner. It happens to most of us, it certainly happens to me, so that's why I said I don't really blame him.
On April 24 2012 03:17 Technique wrote: So you diss tasteless for not knowing anything and then you name wheat, really dude?
Imo Wheat knows more about the game atm than Tasteless and he does better play by play. Tasteless seems like an awesome guy but if you listen to his casting objectively it's not that good.
From ridiculous statements like that i get the feeling that people don't understand that when he asks a question to artosis it doesn't actually mean he doesn't know what's happening. He just wants the listeners to hear the answers.
DjWheat just knows what people tell him, he has very little actual insight of his own, just like every other caster out there that has never been anywhere near close to being a competitive rts player. So to say he knows more then tasteless is really silly, to say the least. Even if tasteless is hardly playing now (which i don't know if he is or is not), he's just a team player in casting.
Yeah, except djWheat streams his master NA ladder play many many days a week, and talks through scenarios and various things he encounters as he improves both his playing skill and knowledge of the game. He's putting in a shitload of time considering his background with shooters, and I think it is showing in the quality of his casting. His casts with Grubby during this past weekend were my favorite casts honestly.
Last time I checked (which was a week ago), he was in Platinum and having problems with that.
He got to diamond. Also, he has a kid and a wife. Those cut into SC2 time and make it hard to invest the hours needed to become masters.
Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2.
They have everything to do with SC2, why do you think every event, concert, tournament, sports event, musical etc etc has been done in front a live crowd since the early 1900s? You think this is a coincidence somehow?
1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove.
Every big sports organization spends millions upon millions on raw production, you think they love throwing money away? You think the NFL, NBA, MLB, FIFA, UEFA and every other major organization is just doing this for kicks and lulz? You dont think they have calculated how much it means that these events are portrayed as a major deal, that you believe in these stars. At the end of the day, Michael Jordan is just a guy who bounced a ball around, but because of how fame was handled he is regarded as one of the most treasured people who has ever lived. He is perhaps the role model for every black out there. Are you really this naive that you think its because he was just good at basketball?
2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up.
Here is a news flash, nobody cares about the hardcore UFC fans who know all the techniques, majority of fans just want to see a good brawl. Nobody cares about the people who calculate all the insane baseball stats, the majority just wants their team to win. Very few hardcore fans care what LeBron James FG percentage is this year, most fans just want to see him win (or lose depending if you are from Cleveland).
Every sport has a niche crowd, small hardcore that "appriciate" the "art", these fans often act superior to others and behave as if they are above other fans because they enjoy the thing in a different way.
3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above.
There is having an opinion, then there is just being wrong. This is the latter. Crowd is everything at events, as i already pointed out for you, crowds have always been a huge part of any event, regardless of what it was.
I should not even have to explain any of this to you, just looking back and thinking for a second you should have realized just how utterly important a crowd is.
To me it just looks like you are trying to latch on to a well respected and well liked member of TL, maybe to gain some notoriety or what not because your supposed arguments here are paper thin weak. I refuse to believe that you really think any of those 3 parts, especially disregarding the crowd/audience is down right shocking.
I'm not going to repeat myself, you can read the more recent comments in this thread if you are actually interested in my position. I obviously understand that these factors are very important to most people, and that crowds have a huge psychological impact. I'm not an idiot, and you should be generous in your interpretation of my post.
I never said those things are not important to people. Different people have different priorities, however. And a professional player probably IS closer to the UFC nerd that apparently 'nobody cares about'.
Things can usually be enjoyed on several different levels. Music can be enjoyed in a live, bombastic setting and it can be enjoyed in a quieter, more appreciative setting. A person goes to an Iron Maiden concert for different reasons that one who attends a Jazz Quartet.
The whole point of my post was to distinguish between the audience that a large event like Dreamhack attracts and the audience that a small, 8 man tournament with no crowd like the MLG Arena attracts.
On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote: MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value.
I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
Just wanted to state that it is REALLY nice to read this from a foreigner pro, which most of tend to mostly care about white guys defeating Koreans it seems.
On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote: MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value.
I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
Just wanted to state that it is REALLY nice to read this from a foreigner pro, which most of tend to mostly care about white guys defeating Koreans it seems.
Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2.
They have everything to do with SC2, why do you think every event, concert, tournament, sports event, musical etc etc has been done in front a live crowd since the early 1900s? You think this is a coincidence somehow?
1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove.
Every big sports organization spends millions upon millions on raw production, you think they love throwing money away? You think the NFL, NBA, MLB, FIFA, UEFA and every other major organization is just doing this for kicks and lulz? You dont think they have calculated how much it means that these events are portrayed as a major deal, that you believe in these stars. At the end of the day, Michael Jordan is just a guy who bounced a ball around, but because of how fame was handled he is regarded as one of the most treasured people who has ever lived. He is perhaps the role model for every black out there. Are you really this naive that you think its because he was just good at basketball?
2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up.
Here is a news flash, nobody cares about the hardcore UFC fans who know all the techniques, majority of fans just want to see a good brawl. Nobody cares about the people who calculate all the insane baseball stats, the majority just wants their team to win. Very few hardcore fans care what LeBron James FG percentage is this year, most fans just want to see him win (or lose depending if you are from Cleveland).
Every sport has a niche crowd, small hardcore that "appriciate" the "art", these fans often act superior to others and behave as if they are above other fans because they enjoy the thing in a different way.
3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above.
There is having an opinion, then there is just being wrong. This is the latter. Crowd is everything at events, as i already pointed out for you, crowds have always been a huge part of any event, regardless of what it was.
I should not even have to explain any of this to you, just looking back and thinking for a second you should have realized just how utterly important a crowd is.
To me it just looks like you are trying to latch on to a well respected and well liked member of TL, maybe to gain some notoriety or what not because your supposed arguments here are paper thin weak. I refuse to believe that you really think any of those 3 parts, especially disregarding the crowd/audience is down right shocking.
I'm not going to repeat myself, you can read the more recent comments in this thread if you are actually interested in my position. I obviously understand that these factors are very important to most people, and that crowds have a huge psychological impact. I'm not an idiot, and you should be generous in your interpretation of my post.
I never said those things are not important to people. Different people have different priorities, however. And a professional player probably IS closer to the UFC nerd that apparently 'nobody cares about'.
Things can usually be enjoyed on several different levels. Music can be enjoyed in a live, bombastic setting and it can be enjoyed in a quieter, more appreciative setting. A person goes to an Iron Maiden concert for different reasons that one who attends a Jazz Quartet.
The whole point of my post was to distinguish between the audience that a large event like Dreamhack attracts and the audience that a small, 8 man tournament with no crowd like the MLG Arena attracts.
Its so annoying when people come with arguments like this. You say a person is wrong, a person that at least is smart enough to give some examples to why is thinks the way he does, but then you just say he is wrong (have paper thin arguments) without giving ANY reason to why. Its like you are sitting with some secret information to why it is that way, but you won't give it to us. I am 99,9999 percent sure thats not the case, so as a logical person I think you just spew out some very subjective views like the rest of us.
But remember this. The guys you went up against had good arguments, grounded in reality, while you came with some theory that you didnt connect with anything ... I wish more people learned to discuss properly. No pilosopher just says the other guys arguments are wrong ... thats how kids argue. Grow up
On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote: MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value.
I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
I understand your perspective, but you're in a very small minority. Most people don't have the time or the talent to learn the game well enough to really appreciate the subtleties of a certain build. It's really condescending to imply that you have to be a pro player to be a fan of SC2. The people who paid 30$ for DH tickets aren't fans of SC2? Not only is it condescending, it's also wrong.
No, I'm not good enough at SC2 to typically enjoy watching a VOD without commentary and without knowing who the players are, just watching the game. There's more that goes into creating an enjoyable viewer experience than just the most minor details that make some players stand out to you. Good casters add to the enjoyment, a good atmosphere at a live event adds to the enjoyment and so does a good storyline (Korean vs foreigner in his home town). There's nothing wrong with that and it also doesn't mean that the quality of play is irrelevant. It's obvious that the starting field at DH was a lot weaker than at MLG and that was a minus for DH, the other parts made up for it though. I don't think it was the best event ever, mostly because of the players and the games, but it was still more enjoyable for me than MLG.
If I go see a live music performance and there's a good atmosphere then I'm going to have a much better time than I would listening to a technically more proficient performance at home on my stereo, even if it's an instrument that I play well enough to appreciate the difference. It's about having an experience, not just being a robot looking at someone's performance. Music isn't just about technique and SC2 is entertainment just as much as it is a game about minor details.
Totally agree. Tyler's sarcastic comments are just showing off his elitism. I don't blame him, really. It's a product of the direct communication between fans and pros e-sports has grown up with. The only reason you don't see it rear its ugly head in the context of other sports is because they lack this communication.
He sounds elitist because he actually is elite compared to you and the vast majority of casual starcraft spectators. When you have tons of experience and knowledge about something, you tend to have different standards. There are many music fans that go to concerts and are disappointed if the band doesn't have an energetic live show banging on trash cans or running around like idiots. It could be Paul Gilbert shredding for his life but if that's all there is to it then it will only satisfy diehard music/guitar fans.
Dreamhack had so much that would entertain people who have never seen Starcraft. I took a friend who has never played to IPL4 and he had a blast. I would not make him watch MLG Arena because it's not that kind of event. All it had was SC2. Which Tyler is a fan of. That's all it needs for some people. For others, it's not enough.
If Tyler ever says anything about how the game works etc, 99,9% of the forum should shut up. But we are talking about which event does a better job, and who makes the best viewer experience. He clearly states his views are skewed, and he mostly wants to watch replays. Is that the viewerbase these events try to get? No, he is a minority, and in this special case, his view is actually one of the less important. We, the dumbasses, are actually the people that have opinions that matter in this case, we are the target audience. So its good that we debate what was good, or bad with one event. Its good that people disagree about which elements are the best. So in the future we might end up with a hybrid that far surpasses both events.
I agree with you actually, but I don't think Tyler ever did anything other than give his opinion. His opinion as a professional will obviously be different than most who are only spectators. And yet these spectators are jumping down his throat for him essentially saying that he is more of a fan of starcraft 2, and that the games are all he cares about.
I don't think the discussion was ever about which event more successfully targets the widest audience. If so then I doubt Tyler would disagree.
People are jumping down his throat because he made a snarky comment about people liking tournaments because of "white people" and "audiences." If he would just have said he liked MLG because the games were of higher quality then there wouldn't be anything people could argue against. His comments were rude and many would disagree about the reason you choose one tournament over another. You could draw a parallel in hockey were the world junior championship are much more popular in certain countries than the actual world championship even if the latter have overall better players. Why? Because the WJC is more entertaining, you get to see the up-and-coming players prove themselves on a big stage while the real WC often feel luke warm in comparison. There are plenty of other examples where people favor one tournament over another for a variaty of reasons that pure quality. Better players don't always lead to a better viewer experience. The bottom line is that most people watch tournaments to be entertained and while some are primary entertained by the highest quality of games that's not how most people make their choice. Just putting it down to skin color is not very accurate as much as it may seem like it.
Also implying that he's a "real fan of sc2" because of his reasoning is just condecending. I guess because I don't like watching Barcelona I'm not a soccer fan then.
Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2.
They have everything to do with SC2, why do you think every event, concert, tournament, sports event, musical etc etc has been done in front a live crowd since the early 1900s? You think this is a coincidence somehow?
1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove.
Every big sports organization spends millions upon millions on raw production, you think they love throwing money away? You think the NFL, NBA, MLB, FIFA, UEFA and every other major organization is just doing this for kicks and lulz? You dont think they have calculated how much it means that these events are portrayed as a major deal, that you believe in these stars. At the end of the day, Michael Jordan is just a guy who bounced a ball around, but because of how fame was handled he is regarded as one of the most treasured people who has ever lived. He is perhaps the role model for every black out there. Are you really this naive that you think its because he was just good at basketball?
2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up.
Here is a news flash, nobody cares about the hardcore UFC fans who know all the techniques, majority of fans just want to see a good brawl. Nobody cares about the people who calculate all the insane baseball stats, the majority just wants their team to win. Very few hardcore fans care what LeBron James FG percentage is this year, most fans just want to see him win (or lose depending if you are from Cleveland).
Every sport has a niche crowd, small hardcore that "appriciate" the "art", these fans often act superior to others and behave as if they are above other fans because they enjoy the thing in a different way.
3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above.
There is having an opinion, then there is just being wrong. This is the latter. Crowd is everything at events, as i already pointed out for you, crowds have always been a huge part of any event, regardless of what it was.
I should not even have to explain any of this to you, just looking back and thinking for a second you should have realized just how utterly important a crowd is.
To me it just looks like you are trying to latch on to a well respected and well liked member of TL, maybe to gain some notoriety or what not because your supposed arguments here are paper thin weak. I refuse to believe that you really think any of those 3 parts, especially disregarding the crowd/audience is down right shocking.
I'm not going to repeat myself, you can read the more recent comments in this thread if you are actually interested in my position. I obviously understand that these factors are very important to most people, and that crowds have a huge psychological impact. I'm not an idiot, and you should be generous in your interpretation of my post.
I never said those things are not important to people. Different people have different priorities, however. And a professional player probably IS closer to the UFC nerd that apparently 'nobody cares about'.
Things can usually be enjoyed on several different levels. Music can be enjoyed in a live, bombastic setting and it can be enjoyed in a quieter, more appreciative setting. A person goes to an Iron Maiden concert for different reasons that one who attends a Jazz Quartet.
The whole point of my post was to distinguish between the audience that a large event like Dreamhack attracts and the audience that a small, 8 man tournament with no crowd like the MLG Arena attracts.
It's a show. Production matters by definition because it contributes to the entertainment value of the show. The difference between DH and MLG Arena is that one has a large audience and one has a small audience because of their production.
i agree with tyler, id take the best players playing /w lower production (but not sacrificing video/audio) over a best/good and sometimes mediocre player mix with a big crowd/production any day.
if u need a big crowd and lots of interviews to get u excited for a tournament that is your choice, dont hate on tyler because he is only interested in gameplay. thats why he said he was an "minority" of sc2 fan, not a lot of ppl like tournaments that way.
Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2.
They have everything to do with SC2, why do you think every event, concert, tournament, sports event, musical etc etc has been done in front a live crowd since the early 1900s? You think this is a coincidence somehow?
1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove.
Every big sports organization spends millions upon millions on raw production, you think they love throwing money away? You think the NFL, NBA, MLB, FIFA, UEFA and every other major organization is just doing this for kicks and lulz? You dont think they have calculated how much it means that these events are portrayed as a major deal, that you believe in these stars. At the end of the day, Michael Jordan is just a guy who bounced a ball around, but because of how fame was handled he is regarded as one of the most treasured people who has ever lived. He is perhaps the role model for every black out there. Are you really this naive that you think its because he was just good at basketball?
2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up.
Here is a news flash, nobody cares about the hardcore UFC fans who know all the techniques, majority of fans just want to see a good brawl. Nobody cares about the people who calculate all the insane baseball stats, the majority just wants their team to win. Very few hardcore fans care what LeBron James FG percentage is this year, most fans just want to see him win (or lose depending if you are from Cleveland).
Every sport has a niche crowd, small hardcore that "appriciate" the "art", these fans often act superior to others and behave as if they are above other fans because they enjoy the thing in a different way.
3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above.
There is having an opinion, then there is just being wrong. This is the latter. Crowd is everything at events, as i already pointed out for you, crowds have always been a huge part of any event, regardless of what it was.
I should not even have to explain any of this to you, just looking back and thinking for a second you should have realized just how utterly important a crowd is.
To me it just looks like you are trying to latch on to a well respected and well liked member of TL, maybe to gain some notoriety or what not because your supposed arguments here are paper thin weak. I refuse to believe that you really think any of those 3 parts, especially disregarding the crowd/audience is down right shocking.
I'm not going to repeat myself, you can read the more recent comments in this thread if you are actually interested in my position. I obviously understand that these factors are very important to most people, and that crowds have a huge psychological impact. I'm not an idiot, and you should be generous in your interpretation of my post.
I never said those things are not important to people. Different people have different priorities, however. And a professional player probably IS closer to the UFC nerd that apparently 'nobody cares about'.
Things can usually be enjoyed on several different levels. Music can be enjoyed in a live, bombastic setting and it can be enjoyed in a quieter, more appreciative setting. A person goes to an Iron Maiden concert for different reasons that one who attends a Jazz Quartet.
The whole point of my post was to distinguish between the audience that a large event like Dreamhack attracts and the audience that a small, 8 man tournament with no crowd like the MLG Arena attracts.
It's a show. Production matters by definition because it contributes to the entertainment value of the show. The difference between DH and MLG Arena is that one has a large audience and one has a small audience because of their production.
Not sure how this is relevant? I'm pretty sure my post that you supposedly read (you quoted it after all) admits that such things are important to most people.
BTW it's a competition. Unless you want Starcraft to become like WWF, the 'show' is always subservient to the games.
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