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On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
My comments aren't rude. There are just a lot of people that don't understand them and misinterpret them. I can virtually guarantee that something I say with a narrow scope will be widened by a ton of people responding to it because it suits them to widen it in order to argue against it. I can also virtually guarantee that something I say that doesn't necessarily imply other things will be taken as implying those other things by people responding to it because it's easier for them to argue against those other things.
I don't mind what your tournament viewing preferences are, and you're entitled to your own opinion, but you have to consider the position you hold as a respected member of the community. When you turn around and say (and I quote verbatim) "I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering", you, regardless of intentions, imply that people who don't share your beliefs aren't fans of SC2.
Don't mince around your position and say that your comments aren't rude. Either stand by your guns and say that if you're a fan of SC2 you would prefer another MLG arena to another DH Stockholm, or throw in an edit, a redacted note, or something, to say that you aren't intentionally shitting on all the people who preferred DH. People misinterpret your posts? Oh no! Throw in a note clarifying your position! That you're not a dick, but you just have limited time and want to watch the highest level games with the best stream quality and whatever.
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On April 24 2012 06:51 Fueled wrote:
Sorry, but this is so wrong. MLG had a nice talent pool, yes, but DH had a much bigger and better talent pool.
Are you kidding? The weakest players at MLG Arena were probably Violet, Huk and Heart. And any of them could have made legitimate runs at Dreamhack. Dreamhack had a much worse talent pool with a few notable exceptions.
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On April 24 2012 07:24 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 06:51 Fueled wrote:This is what Tyler is talking about, the quality of play was much better at MLG....if you preferred DH that's great! Just admit to yourself that you're not interested in watching the best games, you're looking for something else. Sorry, but this is so wrong. MLG had a nice talent pool, yes, but DH had a much bigger and better talent pool. And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH. I'm sorry, but no. DH was stacked in the finals and any of those players could have easily taken a series off HuK. do you honestly think that thorzain or polt would have won this mlg arena? polt fell right out of code s after getting seeded in cause of his play at foreigner tournaments. and I love thorzain and am pumped that he won, but he would have got torn apart by mkp or drg. DH and MLG were outstanding events but very different events. Nony clearly rathers the highest level of game play. MLG had that this weekend. this shouldn't surprise anyone as nony has always cared about that more than anything.
One could also try a more positive attitude overall. Especially the Brood war veterans should be able to acknowledge what improvements the big networks have been able to bring to the table, regardless of your own special interests.
The question would not be to choose from either of each side, but which detials would benefit each other. To say you would prefer one over the other is- to a certain extent- taking the other for granted. Nony, as a player, can easily be less concerned about caster quality, since the game itself can live without that. He could also live without the players being shown at all, and run tournaments "online only" just like back in the beta. There is no need for a broadcast at all for that matter, since MLG could only release replays immediately after and be done with it. Isn't it nice of MLG to put up quality stage props and lighting instead of filming the whole thing in a dirty warehouse?
MLG offered a great package of gameplay and additionally to that we should encourage them to improve the things surrounding it. To settle would be in my eyes not admirable.
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So how about that next episode? All the discussion here lately should make for great material.
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On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me.
Well i guess a lot of players dont understand how the world works then, nice comment btw to all the people who buy tickets for events. Stop buying tickets guys, other players dont care if they are not there themselves, your meaningless then. Holy crap, nice going.
I understand your point of view, your only interested in the games but your opinion (especially the way you say it) reflects very, very poorly on pro gamers (you say the community agrees with you, which means pro gamers cause we have seen the community's reaction) towards people who watch SC2 as a entertainment (who are a big percentage of your audience and who you need to make a living) and if you guys want esports to grow then this kind of comments will not fly.
My mind is blown, im pretty new to esports but now i understand why esports has so many problems, even the players have no idea what they are doing.
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On April 24 2012 08:05 TheSir wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. Well i guess a lot of players dont understand how the world works then, nice comment btw to all the people who buy tickets for events. Stop buying tickets guys, other players dont care if they are not there themselves, your meaningless then. Holy crap, nice going. I understand your point of view, your only interested in the games but your opinion (especially the way you say it) reflects very, very poorly on pro gamers (you say the community agrees with you, which means pro gamers cause we have seen the community's reaction) towards people who watch SC2 as a entertainment (who are a big percentage of your audience and who you need to make a living) and if you guys want esports to grow then this kind of comments will not fly. My mind is blown, im pretty new to esports but now i understand why esports has so many problems, even the players have no idea what they are doing.
Do you go to events to see progamers care for you or to see them playing to their fullest potential. For Nony it's obviously focusing on the games rather than on the crowd (which distracts you in one way or the other) and I guess many other progamers would agree. Sure there are Fans of specific players that want to see or have "their moment" with their favourite player but you can't seriously argue that it's unprofessional for a progamer to care about his performance instead of cheering with and for the crowd. Take any other sport...there are players who are fan favourites because they interact and players who speak through their performance. There is no "one way" to do it and you telling Nony how ESPORT works is rather paradox in itself...
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On April 24 2012 08:05 TheSir wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. Well i guess a lot of players dont understand how the world works then, nice comment btw to all the people who buy tickets for events. Stop buying tickets guys, other players dont care if they are not there themselves, your meaningless then. Holy crap, nice going. I understand your point of view, your only interested in the games but your opinion (especially the way you say it) reflects very, very poorly on pro gamers (you say the community agrees with you, which means pro gamers cause we have seen the community's reaction) towards people who watch SC2 as a entertainment (who are a big percentage of your audience and who you need to make a living) and if you guys want esports to grow then this kind of comments will not fly. My mind is blown, im pretty new to esports but now i understand why esports has so many problems, even the players have no idea what they are doing.
Cool *_YOUR_* jets man. NonY is right here. There is nothing rude about what he said. I think *_YOU'RE_* overreacting a bit. Either that or your mind is easily blown.
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On April 24 2012 08:05 TheSir wrote:
I understand your point of view, your only interested in the games but your opinion (especially the way you say it) reflects very, very poorly on pro gamers (you say the community agrees with you, which means pro gamers cause we have seen the community's reaction) towards people who watch SC2 as a entertainment (who are a big percentage of your audience and who you need to make a living) and if you guys want esports to grow then this kind of comments will not fly.
You are confused. Read what he said again, but slowly.
I'll give you a hand.
Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience.
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My problem with nonys comments are that while he states that the quality of the games are the most important thing he is spectator in a tournament setting. A tournament like MLG will have a varied degree of skillful or interesting matches despite the skill of the invitees. MLG will have downtime between the matches, meaningless banter between the casters and a lot of fluff. So by watching a tournament live you are watching to see something else than just good quality matches without out fluff. If you are truly dedicated to quality games you should watch recommended VODs and if that's not the case you are to some degree interested in the entertainment.
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On April 24 2012 08:24 archonOOid wrote:
My problem with nonys comments are that while he states that the quality of the games are the most important thing he is spectator in a tournament setting. A tournament like MLG will have a varied degree of skillful or interesting matches despite the skill of the invitees. MLG will have downtime between the matches, meaningless banter between the casters and a lot of fluff. So by watching a tournament live you are watching to see something else than just good quality matches without out fluff. If you are truly dedicated to quality games you should watch recommended VODs and if that's not the case you are to some degree interested in the entertainment.
It's all about weighing interest. He could have a non-zero level of interest in the banter and production but it doesn't have to excite him to the point that it is the aspect by which he measures the relative success or failure of the tournament.
And to be honest, I feel like for most people, it IS the dominant reason. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to you. Nony has made his position clear, as have I and most others in this thread. There is really not much more to be discussed.
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On April 24 2012 08:16 Turbo.Tactics wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:05 TheSir wrote:On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. Well i guess a lot of players dont understand how the world works then, nice comment btw to all the people who buy tickets for events. Stop buying tickets guys, other players dont care if they are not there themselves, your meaningless then. Holy crap, nice going. I understand your point of view, your only interested in the games but your opinion (especially the way you say it) reflects very, very poorly on pro gamers (you say the community agrees with you, which means pro gamers cause we have seen the community's reaction) towards people who watch SC2 as a entertainment (who are a big percentage of your audience and who you need to make a living) and if you guys want esports to grow then this kind of comments will not fly. My mind is blown, im pretty new to esports but now i understand why esports has so many problems, even the players have no idea what they are doing. Do you go to events to see progamers care for you or to see them playing to their fullest potential. For Nony it's obviously focusing on the games rather than on the crowd (which distracts you in one way or the other) and I guess many other progamers would agree. Sure there are Fans of specific players that want to see or have "their moment" with their favourite player but you can't seriously argue that it's unprofessional for a progamer to care about his performance instead of cheering with and for the crowd. Take any other sport...there are players who are fan favourites because they interact and players who speak through their performance. There is no "one way" to do it and you telling Nony how ESPORT works is rather paradox in itself...
Do say i know how esports works? Nope, like i said im pretty new to this and i dont have a clue, i dont pretend it and i dont care how esports work. Why should i care? I dont work in esports, im a customer. I dont need to know how it works, i do know how sport works in general and Nony is literately saying a crowd is meaningless to him. A crowd who's bringing in money and exposure. A crowd that just gave a colleague of him a night he will likely never forget and he says: who cares that 1/2k people cheered for a colleague of mine, there meaningless to me and a lot of other players. So yeah of course my mind is blown, thats unreal in any other sport.
So well yeah let's take another sport, you think it's gonna fly when a for example a pro football player says the crowd is meaningless to him if he's not on the pitch, i dont know if you familiar with other sports like football but that player would have some major problems with the fans, his teammates and his bosses.
Why would you go to any event to watch athlete's if they announce publicly you would be meaningless to them unless they are there themselves? Again holy crap and you dont go to events to see athlete's at there full potential, that almost never happens in any sports. You think im going to the stadium to see my football team play at there full potential? It's nice but as long a they win and i had a fun time i dont give a damn and no one does. Why would i?
And of course athlete's care almost always more about their own performances (as i said i understand Nony's point of view) then if a crowd goes nuts or doesn't but that's something else then saying to your audience (which pro gamers need to make a living) that they are meaningless. You may think it but you cant say that and thats why i said it seems pro SC2 players dont have a clue what they are doing.
Oh and not that it matters but i will never attend a esports event cause i pretty much found out on this forum alone that i wont fit in with the crowd and thats why i dont go into many discussions here cause i look at things at a entire different way and it's meaningless to even try to explain it just like you who didn't understand anything i said earlier.
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Anyone know when the next state of the game is?
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On April 24 2012 09:50 OrganicDoom wrote:
Anyone know when the next state of the game is?
Looking likely for Thursday with Incontrol (if available), Wheat, possibly Thorzain then I assume 1 or 2 Pillars.
extra proof for morons that need pictures: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6I2QT.png)
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On April 24 2012 09:50 OrganicDoom wrote:
Anyone know when the next state of the game is?
This post is more important to this thread then the past 12 pages of banter, so who's got an answer?
edit: kinda answered
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And so it was divinely decreed 
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Just got totally freaked out that someone had exactly the same people on twitter followed, realised it's my picture.
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On April 24 2012 08:24 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:05 TheSir wrote:
I understand your point of view, your only interested in the games but your opinion (especially the way you say it) reflects very, very poorly on pro gamers (you say the community agrees with you, which means pro gamers cause we have seen the community's reaction) towards people who watch SC2 as a entertainment (who are a big percentage of your audience and who you need to make a living) and if you guys want esports to grow then this kind of comments will not fly.
You are confused. Read what he said again, but slowly. I'll give you a hand. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience.
I'm pretty sure Nony just misspoke. It should be
Almost everyone in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience.... They hardly resonate with me
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On April 24 2012 09:56 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 09:50 OrganicDoom wrote:
Anyone know when the next state of the game is? Looking likely for Thursday with Incontrol (if available), Wheat, possibly Thorzain then I assume 1 or 2 Pillars. extra proof for morons that need pictures:
i call photoshop! please give real links !! this is NOT SUFFICIENT!
no no, actually: thank you
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On April 24 2012 08:24 archonOOid wrote:
My problem with nonys comments are that while he states that the quality of the games are the most important thing he is spectator in a tournament setting. A tournament like MLG will have a varied degree of skillful or interesting matches despite the skill of the invitees. MLG will have downtime between the matches, meaningless banter between the casters and a lot of fluff. So by watching a tournament live you are watching to see something else than just good quality matches without out fluff. If you are truly dedicated to quality games you should watch recommended VODs and if that's not the case you are to some degree interested in the entertainment.
There's something completely different between watching games live and watching VODs. Different feeling, different expectation and a sense of not knowing whats going to happen next.
The aspects of tournaments you describe has become standard. Downtime is always expected in tournaments, completely unreasonable to expect no downtime.....you can't expect to make a logical argument saying you should only watch the VODs of a tournament because theres downtime. Similarly, fluff and caster banter is now expected at all tournaments because of the community. I mean, the MAJORITY of the sc2 community would watch a tournament with good casters vs a similar tournament with no-name casters.
And also, I felt really bored by DH.... the ending was epic and all that, but i really couldnt stand the first day and a half of DH for a few reasons:
The first 2 group stages were completely rubbish with randoms everywhere and groups where favourites HAD to progress.
I have no idea where to find specific games on the 7-8 streams on TL, like if I wanted to watch HyuN's games, I had to hope his games were on a certain stream at a certain time.
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On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
My comments aren't rude. There are just a lot of people that don't understand them and misinterpret them. I can virtually guarantee that something I say with a narrow scope will be widened by a ton of people responding to it because it suits them to widen it in order to argue against it. I can also virtually guarantee that something I say that doesn't necessarily imply other things will be taken as implying those other things by people responding to it because it's easier for them to argue against those other things. This happens in every single discussion on TL.net ever.
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience. And yet those things don't resonate with absolutely everyone watching the tournament (but they hardly make the tournament worse for anyone -- a Pareto improvement). They hardly resonate with me. I could go on: the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more.
I can strip it down all the way to the extreme of watching games between Player1 and Player2 with no commentary and no overlay and a blank screen between games. If the observer is good, the players are good and the stream is good, I'm happy. If people are gonna call bullshit on me on that because the tournament closer to that happens to be an MLG tournament, then I'll point out how stupid I think their interests are. Especially when their interests tug at the limited resources a tournament has and threaten my interests, which are the core of the whole thing.
While it is entirely true that a lot of people that are quite hardcore StarCraft fans (the high master league type and/or people that have a keen strategic understanding of the game) only care about the quality of the games, those people are undoubtly a minority of everyone watching. The bigger the scene grows, the smaller that percentage will be. How many Football fans can honestly say that they could genuinely get exited about a game featuring a red and a blue team with faceless players, faceless coaches and all played in a spectatorless stadium? The hardcore fans, the kind that think like a manager and the kind that care about how their team play above and beyond whether or not they win will enjoy it if the game is good. But the average fan? Fat chance. Honestly, most average Football fans have a knowledge of the rules that makes me cringe even as someone with a somewhat limited knowledge of the game (~1 year of experience as a rec league refferee). Football is obviously an obsurbe example considering how massive its fanbase is, but the point remain: as you get bigger more of your fans are casuals and casuals generally don't understand the game all that much.
What Football games get remembered? The good games or the games that are played on the biggest stages? Like it or not, the games people will talk about years from now are World Cup finals, Euro finals, Championship Leagues finals and the matches leading up to them that added to the tournament's storyline. People will remember Uruguay - Ghana for decades, not because it was a great match from a tactical or technical standpoint but because it was a great storyline (similar to a "foreigner" making it far in a SC2 tournament, really, if you say that a "foreigner" in Football is a non-European/Latin American) that was dashed by last minute high drama. The point is that, yes, the stage matter. You might play the best game of all times on ladder, but nobody will remember it. People will, however, remember game 7 of the Blizzard Cup finals for a long time, not necessarily because it was the best game of 2011 (I guess some might argue it was the best series of 2011, but that's beyond the point) but because it was the game that mattered the most in 2011, played on the game's biggest stage.
Point being, the stage, the players and the storylines matter more than the games themselves (within reason, I don't think anyone but the most hardcore Spanish fans actually enjoyed the 2010 FIFA World Cup finals - gosh that game was bad, but hey, we still all watched it) to the casual fans. And at the end of the day, casual fans outnumber "real" fans in pretty much every single sport (the only ready counterexample I can think of is chess, but the pro chess scene is arguably rather niche anyway). The casual fans are the one being cathered to in every sport out there because, at the end of the day, they are the ones that provide eyeballs to advertizers and buy tickets. Casuals might have a stupid interest, but at the end of the day they are the ones that pay TL's, MLG's and Blizzard's bills.
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EPT
