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8748 Posts
My comments aren't rude. There are just a lot of people that don't understand them and misinterpret them. I can virtually guarantee that something I say with a narrow scope will be widened by a ton of people responding to it because it suits them to widen it in order to argue against it. I can also virtually guarantee that something I say that doesn't necessarily imply other things will be taken as implying those other things by people responding to it because it's easier for them to argue against those other things. This happens in every single discussion on TL.net ever.
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience. And yet those things don't resonate with absolutely everyone watching the tournament (but they hardly make the tournament worse for anyone -- a Pareto improvement). They hardly resonate with me. I could go on: the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more.
I can strip it down all the way to the extreme of watching games between Player1 and Player2 with no commentary and no overlay and a blank screen between games. If the observer is good, the players are good and the stream is good, I'm happy. If people are gonna call bullshit on me on that because the tournament closer to that happens to be an MLG tournament, then I'll point out how stupid I think their interests are. Especially when their interests tug at the limited resources a tournament has and threaten my interests, which are the core of the whole thing.
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On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
They hardly resonate with me. I could go on: the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more.
Maybe it's not part of the actual SC2 game, but its part of the SC2 experience, and the ability to enjoy them also makes you an SC2 fan. I think the point where people found you comments rude was this sentence here.
"Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2."
Being a fan of something is not only about appreciating the level of play, but knowing and rooting for the players in the game, in my opinion.
All in all, though, I think this had been a fantastic weekend for SC2, and wish we could stop arguing about semantics and definitions... Cheers!
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nony we've all missed your stream
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Edit: don't feed the troll
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On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
My comments aren't rude. There are just a lot of people that don't understand them and misinterpret them. I can virtually guarantee that something I say with a narrow scope will be widened by a ton of people responding to it because it suits them to widen it in order to argue against it. I can also virtually guarantee that something I say that doesn't necessarily imply other things will be taken as implying those other things by people responding to it because it's easier for them to argue against those other things. This happens in every single discussion on TL.net ever.
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience. And yet those things don't resonate with absolutely everyone watching the tournament (but they hardly make the tournament worse for anyone -- a Pareto improvement). They hardly resonate with me. I could go on: the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more.
I can strip it down all the way to the extreme of watching games between Player1 and Player2 with no commentary and no overlay and a blank screen between games. If the observer is good, the players are good and the stream is good, I'm happy. If people are gonna call bullshit on me on that because the tournament closer to that happens to be an MLG tournament, then I'll point out how stupid I think their interests are. Especially when their interests tug at the limited resources a tournament has and threaten my interests, which are the core of the whole thing.
This isn't lesswrong, people aren't going to give you the benefit of the doubt unfortunately. Don't worry too much about it, it will be a dark day for the forums when you get fed up and leave.
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On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
My comments aren't rude. There are just a lot of people that don't understand them and misinterpret them. I can virtually guarantee that something I say with a narrow scope will be widened by a ton of people responding to it because it suits them to widen it in order to argue against it. I can also virtually guarantee that something I say that doesn't necessarily imply other things will be taken as implying those other things by people responding to it because it's easier for them to argue against those other things. This happens in every single discussion on TL.net ever.
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience. And yet those things don't resonate with absolutely everyone watching the tournament (but they hardly make the tournament worse for anyone -- a Pareto improvement). They hardly resonate with me. I could go on: the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more.
I can strip it down all the way to the extreme of watching games between Player1 and Player2 with no commentary and no overlay and a blank screen between games. If the observer is good, the players are good and the stream is good, I'm happy. If people are gonna call bullshit on me on that because the tournament closer to that happens to be an MLG tournament, then I'll point out how stupid I think their interests are. Especially when their interests tug at the limited resources a tournament has and threaten my interests, which are the core of the whole thing.
And that's what you did with your first post when you trivialized others' interests, which was what some people reacted against. I'm not sure why you're attempting to make it look like that post was misunderstood.
This is really a pointless argument though, as anyone worth discussing anything with would know that people have different preferences when it comes to their SC2 experience and there's nothing wrong with that. And I know that you know this shit already.
Edit: I guess some people took the post as being about racism or something, so sure, there were some people who might've misunderstood it.
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
My comments aren't rude. There are just a lot of people that don't understand them and misinterpret them. I can virtually guarantee that something I say with a narrow scope will be widened by a ton of people responding to it because it suits them to widen it in order to argue against it. I can also virtually guarantee that something I say that doesn't necessarily imply other things will be taken as implying those other things by people responding to it because it's easier for them to argue against those other things. This happens in every single discussion on TL.net ever.
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience. And yet those things don't resonate with absolutely everyone watching the tournament (but they hardly make the tournament worse for anyone -- a Pareto improvement). They hardly resonate with me. I could go on: the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more.
I can strip it down all the way to the extreme of watching games between Player1 and Player2 with no commentary and no overlay and a blank screen between games. If the observer is good, the players are good and the stream is good, I'm happy. If people are gonna call bullshit on me on that because the tournament closer to that happens to be an MLG tournament, then I'll point out how stupid I think their interests are. Especially when their interests tug at the limited resources a tournament has and threaten my interests, which are the core of the whole thing.
I completely understand what you are saying and agree Tyler, but as lame as this sounds, I just think you could have been nicer about it. There were a bunch of people (me included, and loads of pro players) who were just happy that Thorzain won the tournament.
Your posts made it seem like you didn't respect people who felt that, when obviously thats not what you feel.
Your ability to appreciate the game regardless of context is a great thing (especially when there seems a misconception that you really don't like SC2, whereas from what I can tell the opposite is true), as without people who really care about going in depth with the game it wouldn't progress, and peoples' passion about the games is equally important, other wise everyone who cares about the would be broke.
I hope what Zefreak said doesn't happen and that you don't stop posting here, pretty much everyone knows that you're a smart guy who's opinions are worth listening. I just feel like (and I think that this is what most people feel like) that you could have been, frankly, a bit less of dick about this specific topic.
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On April 24 2012 05:45 bouhko wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. People don't cheer for foreigners because of their skin color. People would cheer for a black foreigner. There is really no need to bring racial consideration in this discussion.
I'm pretty sure you are putting words into Nony's mouth now, his argument was never about this and if the best response you can give is to accuse somebody of racism then you shouldn't be posting at all.
Nony, you are the minority. When I'm playing SC2 regularly I also enjoy higher level games instead of pretty presentations, but now that I'm not, thanks to other commitments, I prefer Dreamhack finals, which were free and you can just tune in the moment you hear about them compared to keeping track of MLG's events.
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On April 24 2012 04:08 TheSir wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 04:05 Ercster wrote:On April 24 2012 03:56 farvacola wrote:On April 24 2012 03:49 Technique wrote:On April 24 2012 03:28 Daray wrote:On April 24 2012 03:17 Technique wrote:
So you diss tasteless for not knowing anything and then you name wheat, really dude? Imo Wheat knows more about the game atm than Tasteless and he does better play by play. Tasteless seems like an awesome guy but if you listen to his casting objectively it's not that good. From ridiculous statements like that i get the feeling that people don't understand that when he asks a question to artosis it doesn't actually mean he doesn't know what's happening. He just wants the listeners to hear the answers. DjWheat just knows what people tell him, he has very little actual insight of his own, just like every other caster out there that has never been anywhere near close to being a competitive rts player. So to say he knows more then tasteless is really silly, to say the least. Even if tasteless is hardly playing now (which i don't know if he is or is not), he's just a team player in casting. Yeah, except djWheat streams his master NA ladder play many many days a week, and talks through scenarios and various things he encounters as he improves both his playing skill and knowledge of the game. He's putting in a shitload of time considering his background with shooters, and I think it is showing in the quality of his casting. His casts with Grubby during this past weekend were my favorite casts honestly. Last time I checked (which was a week ago), he was in Platinum and having problems with that. Does it matter? Reality check..... Hmm nope, not at all
It actually does matter. He was implying that because djWheat was in masters, his analysis is correct.
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On April 23 2012 22:59 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:On April 23 2012 22:19 demitap wrote:
Sorry, but sometime you really make me feel like you're sad person, DH Finals was so much more exciting than mlg, mlg was cold, sad and really not better than any weekly cup this time, while DH had this amazing crowd, more players and at least foreigners fought back against koreans( I'm not trying to bash huk, but he got Roflstomed this mlg, humiliated) And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH. This is what Tyler is talking about, the quality of play was much better at MLG....if you preferred DH that's great! Just admit to yourself that you're not interested in watching the best games, you're looking for something else. There where 4-5 protoss players at DH that are better then huk... so no... he would not have.
Who? There is like Naniwa and that is arguable.
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On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
My comments aren't rude. There are just a lot of people that don't understand them and misinterpret them. I can virtually guarantee that something I say with a narrow scope will be widened by a ton of people responding to it because it suits them to widen it in order to argue against it. I can also virtually guarantee that something I say that doesn't necessarily imply other things will be taken as implying those other things by people responding to it because it's easier for them to argue against those other things. This happens in every single discussion on TL.net ever.
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience. And yet those things don't resonate with absolutely everyone watching the tournament (but they hardly make the tournament worse for anyone -- a Pareto improvement). They hardly resonate with me. I could go on: the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more.
I can strip it down all the way to the extreme of watching games between Player1 and Player2 with no commentary and no overlay and a blank screen between games. If the observer is good, the players are good and the stream is good, I'm happy. If people are gonna call bullshit on me on that because the tournament closer to that happens to be an MLG tournament, then I'll point out how stupid I think their interests are. Especially when their interests tug at the limited resources a tournament has and threaten my interests, which are the core of the whole thing.
Wow, you are delusional. Most people understand that their views are subjective. You don't in this argument. You will most likely be right in any TL argument against the masses. But here and now, you discuss against your own logic, you use extremely strong language to kill other arguments without giving any argument......
Main argument against a player like you: You say we should give subjective and descriptive views about tournaments so we could have a nice discussion. YES! I love that thought. Why do you dive into fanning the flames right after that. You say " People love clapping more than sc2", you say " Its the sittiest thing I have seen"... Wow, you are so good at making me fucking hate you for people that actually have problems with insanity (yes, depression is different degrees of depression), Why do you act like a troll, if you demand the respect of a pro player? Watch EVERY comment of your own in this thread. If you aren't retarted you will see that you are negating yourself so many times. Do you want me to instruct your sorry ass about how you dont know shit:
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 24 2012 02:15 TheBanana wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:43 masakenji wrote:
honestly, you really cannot compare drg vs mkp and thorzain vs polt.
drg/ mkp got history. it was a best of 7, down to the last game. all it lacked was an audience, but we'll see it at the spring championship ^^
the whole foreigner beating a korean has gotten dulled thanks to naniwa ^^ Thorzain and Polt doesn't have history? They've met 3 times before this final, all three times in the finals of MSI Pro Cup. Polt won 3-0, 3-0 and 3-1.
Yeah there is a difference between meeting in the finals of three straight MLGs and meeting in the finals of three MSI pro cups...
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On April 24 2012 06:14 Zaphid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:45 bouhko wrote:On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. People don't cheer for foreigners because of their skin color. People would cheer for a black foreigner. There is really no need to bring racial consideration in this discussion. I'm pretty sure you are putting words into Nony's mouth now, his argument was never about this and if the best response you can give is to accuse somebody of racism then you shouldn't be posting at all. Nony, you are the minority. When I'm playing SC2 regularly I also enjoy higher level games instead of pretty presentations, but now that I'm not, thanks to other commitments, I prefer Dreamhack finals, which were free and you can just tune in the moment you hear about them compared to keeping track of MLG's events.
Although I don’t agree with everything Nony said, I am growing tired of the massive 3 day event with huge brackets. The finals were exciting for DH, I did not watch any of the build up to the event. Even then, these gauntlet style events with huge map pools do not turn out the sort of play I enjoy watching. And the size of the events makes it hard to follow a player through the event without camping TL.
I guess I only really have room for 3 day-open bracket event in my life and that will likely be MLG. It is in my time zone and has most of the players I care about. The rest of the time, I will likely stick to the GSL and NASL, which provide longer story lines at a slower pace.
Not dislike to DH, it was a good event(despite the number of silly maps) and I enjoyed reading about it after the fact.
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On April 24 2012 06:19 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:59 Technique wrote:On April 23 2012 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:On April 23 2012 22:19 demitap wrote:
Sorry, but sometime you really make me feel like you're sad person, DH Finals was so much more exciting than mlg, mlg was cold, sad and really not better than any weekly cup this time, while DH had this amazing crowd, more players and at least foreigners fought back against koreans( I'm not trying to bash huk, but he got Roflstomed this mlg, humiliated) And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH. This is what Tyler is talking about, the quality of play was much better at MLG....if you preferred DH that's great! Just admit to yourself that you're not interested in watching the best games, you're looking for something else. There where 4-5 protoss players at DH that are better then huk... so no... he would not have. Who? There is like Naniwa and that is arguable.
Naniwa is definitely better than HuK atm...
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On April 24 2012 06:19 Yamulo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:59 Technique wrote:On April 23 2012 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:On April 23 2012 22:19 demitap wrote:
Sorry, but sometime you really make me feel like you're sad person, DH Finals was so much more exciting than mlg, mlg was cold, sad and really not better than any weekly cup this time, while DH had this amazing crowd, more players and at least foreigners fought back against koreans( I'm not trying to bash huk, but he got Roflstomed this mlg, humiliated) And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH. This is what Tyler is talking about, the quality of play was much better at MLG....if you preferred DH that's great! Just admit to yourself that you're not interested in watching the best games, you're looking for something else. There where 4-5 protoss players at DH that are better then huk... so no... he would not have. Who? There is like Naniwa and that is arguable.
Genius and Sase are pretty damn good also. And Mana and Socke are not that far.
Saying Huk would roflstomp just abour anyone at DH is retarded. Genius,Sase,Naniwa, Mana Socke,Thorzain, ret, nerchio, morrow and monster all have pretty good chances against huk.
And even though i like Huk, i think he is a serious underdog against Polt and Puma.
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This is what Tyler is talking about, the quality of play was much better at MLG....if you preferred DH that's great! Just admit to yourself that you're not interested in watching the best games, you're looking for something else.
Sorry, but this is so wrong. MLG had a nice talent pool, yes, but DH had a much bigger and better talent pool.
And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH.
I'm sorry, but no. DH was stacked in the finals and any of those players could have easily taken a series off HuK.
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I felt the arena was underwhelming. A lot of the games were just all-ins and watching the same 8 people for entire weekend just leads to burnout. By the time the championship bracket came around I had lost interest especially since everyone in the championship bracket had already played each other before which for me didn't make the games as interesting as events where the best players from opposite sides of the bracket meet in the finals. The fact that I am also watching players not play their best because of jetlag or by the amount of games they have to play just makes the games uninteresting compared to GSL.
The prizepool was also disappointing I would think for an event where you supposedly have the best 8 players in the world there would be a much larger prizepool $5000 just seems low for who the players had to play.
And a thing that can be learned from WWE of all things is that they can hype matches because the rock vs cena was a once in a lifetime event right now mkp vs drg is happening every few weeks which means no hype and for me completely not interesting.
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I think it is important to celebrate our communities achievements and struggles by putting them in the spotlight. It promotes growth and allows for the possibility that the gap may narrow(or at least not widen). Honestly I think MLG champioships have a pretty good balance. There is the open bracket for foreigners to try their luck and they have the two bonus(non free) streams so that the lesser known players can get casted and then the group stages have the talent where you can see top level performance. Admittedly the execution isn't perfect and it could use more code A/S competition but that general structure seems pretty healthy. IPL4 worked okay too but they didn't have enough streams so the open bracket was largely ignored. I'm only a diamond player so any semi pro player plays at a level that is entertaining to watch.
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On April 24 2012 06:51 Fueled wrote:Show nested quote +This is what Tyler is talking about, the quality of play was much better at MLG....if you preferred DH that's great! Just admit to yourself that you're not interested in watching the best games, you're looking for something else. Sorry, but this is so wrong. MLG had a nice talent pool, yes, but DH had a much bigger and better talent pool. I'm sorry, but no. DH was stacked in the finals and any of those players could have easily taken a series off HuK.
do you honestly think that thorzain or polt would have won this mlg arena? polt fell right out of code s after getting seeded in cause of his play at foreigner tournaments. and I love thorzain and am pumped that he won, but he would have got torn apart by mkp or drg.
DH and MLG were outstanding events but very different events. Nony clearly rathers the highest level of game play. MLG had that this weekend. this shouldn't surprise anyone as nony has always cared about that more than anything.
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do you honestly think that thorzain or polt would have won this mlg arena?
No, but some of the other players like NaNiWa or Genius could have. Though they weren't in the finals for DH, they could still have taken games off anyone at the MLG Arena.
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EPT
