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On April 24 2012 02:51 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:38 bbm wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. Agreed. At least with the first two sentences, before you turned into a collosal dick. The games were better, the first person was great, as was the analyst discussion cool. But that's about it. The atmosphere was muted and storylines almost non-existant (until the finals obv). During the FIFA 2002 world cup, two storylines riveted me. One was my home country, the other was that of Senegal. A team that had never qualified before, who beat reigning champions France in their first match, then tied with Denmark and Uraguay to come second in their group, and then beat Sweden in the Ro16. Underdogs and home pride. It makes a big difference to the enjoyment you can get out of a tournament. Someone to root for, someone to cheer for. DRG's my favourite player out of the 8 there and I was cheering for him in this tournament, but I'd always cheer for demuslim or bling over him. I WANT an upset, whether it's a big one like scarlett or a relatively lesser one (not taking away from them but they're already great) like Ret > Genius or Nerchio > Hyun. There's continual complaints about "useless games", especially since Naniwa's blizz cup scandal. MLG doing round robin, fine, but playing all 3 games even if a winner is already decided? IMO round robin lacks suspense, at least before it gets to the last few matches, and then it can be very confusing (such as, I believe, drg v parting being eliminated was decided after drg had won his last series, but not before his last game? wat). I have nothing invested in those games. I'm hesitant to complain too much about round robin, since having more games played with less players is only a good thing though. DH wasn't a perfect event (whole first day was pretty retarded), but it was a bigger one, a more hyped one, and arguably a better one. tl;dr: The games were better, the actual event wasn't. Lack of storylines and suspense lead to me feeling less invested in the results of the games. If I was watching the vods I'd much prefer the MLG ones, but I wasn't. I was watching entire tournaments. edit: Trimmed it up a bit because I rambled like fuck. Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2. 1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove. 2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up. 3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above. All of these things do add to an experience that most people will enjoy, there is no doubt about that. My point is not that these things are bad or anything of the sort. My point is that some people are fans of the game, while others are fans of the drama, emotion and spectacle. Sure, they probably like the game a bit but they are more drawn towards the players, personalities and underdog storylines. Some people are passionate about the game itself, and want to see the highest level of play without distractions. Accept that it is the case. It's not 'wrong' to enjoy the peripheral aspects of competitive starcraft. But accept it for what it is.
All the above enhance the SC2 experience, they are not beside it. They are the pop corn and cola of films.
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I paid for MLG but i spent my time watching DH, mostly. You can call me crazy or whatever, but i simply didn't enjoy this MLG event.
People are complaining about the first day of DH, but MLG's was also bad, especially if your favorite players are Protoss.
I had more fun listening to Wolf/dApollo/Incontrol than Tastosis. Even tho Grubby made MLG way better, i dont know, i didnt enjoy it.
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On April 24 2012 02:51 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:38 bbm wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. Agreed. At least with the first two sentences, before you turned into a collosal dick. The games were better, the first person was great, as was the analyst discussion cool. But that's about it. The atmosphere was muted and storylines almost non-existant (until the finals obv). During the FIFA 2002 world cup, two storylines riveted me. One was my home country, the other was that of Senegal. A team that had never qualified before, who beat reigning champions France in their first match, then tied with Denmark and Uraguay to come second in their group, and then beat Sweden in the Ro16. Underdogs and home pride. It makes a big difference to the enjoyment you can get out of a tournament. Someone to root for, someone to cheer for. DRG's my favourite player out of the 8 there and I was cheering for him in this tournament, but I'd always cheer for demuslim or bling over him. I WANT an upset, whether it's a big one like scarlett or a relatively lesser one (not taking away from them but they're already great) like Ret > Genius or Nerchio > Hyun. There's continual complaints about "useless games", especially since Naniwa's blizz cup scandal. MLG doing round robin, fine, but playing all 3 games even if a winner is already decided? IMO round robin lacks suspense, at least before it gets to the last few matches, and then it can be very confusing (such as, I believe, drg v parting being eliminated was decided after drg had won his last series, but not before his last game? wat). I have nothing invested in those games. I'm hesitant to complain too much about round robin, since having more games played with less players is only a good thing though. DH wasn't a perfect event (whole first day was pretty retarded), but it was a bigger one, a more hyped one, and arguably a better one. tl;dr: The games were better, the actual event wasn't. Lack of storylines and suspense lead to me feeling less invested in the results of the games. If I was watching the vods I'd much prefer the MLG ones, but I wasn't. I was watching entire tournaments. edit: Trimmed it up a bit because I rambled like fuck. Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2. 1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove. 2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up. 3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above. All of these things do add to an experience that most people will enjoy, there is no doubt about that. My point is not that these things are bad or anything of the sort. My point is that some people are fans of the game, while others are fans of the drama, emotion and spectacle. Sure, they probably like the game a bit but they are more drawn towards the players, personalities and underdog storylines. Some people are passionate about the game itself, and want to see the highest level of play without distractions. Accept that it is the case. It's not 'wrong' to enjoy the peripheral aspects of competitive starcraft. But accept it for what it is.
I don't like the the Idea that Story lines and Quality production are 'Distractions' to SC2. They are more like added extras, Geat production and an Epic story can save an event and DH Stockholm is a prime example. Also saying that People on TL aren't fans Of SC2 is pushing things slightly we are all fans of the game on here but we put differing levels of priority on things like Production.
The best Tournament will have Great games from the best players, awesome production an enthusiastic crowd and an inspiring story line.
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On April 24 2012 00:31 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 22:59 hugman wrote:On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value. I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2. I understand your perspective, but you're in a very small minority. Most people don't have the time or the talent to learn the game well enough to really appreciate the subtleties of a certain build. It's really condescending to imply that you have to be a pro player to be a fan of SC2. The people who paid 30$ for DH tickets aren't fans of SC2? Not only is it condescending, it's also wrong. No, I'm not good enough at SC2 to typically enjoy watching a VOD without commentary and without knowing who the players are, just watching the game. There's more that goes into creating an enjoyable viewer experience than just the most minor details that make some players stand out to you. Good casters add to the enjoyment, a good atmosphere at a live event adds to the enjoyment and so does a good storyline (Korean vs foreigner in his home town). There's nothing wrong with that and it also doesn't mean that the quality of play is irrelevant. It's obvious that the starting field at DH was a lot weaker than at MLG and that was a minus for DH, the other parts made up for it though. I don't think it was the best event ever, mostly because of the players and the games, but it was still more enjoyable for me than MLG. If I go see a live music performance and there's a good atmosphere then I'm going to have a much better time than I would listening to a technically more proficient performance at home on my stereo, even if it's an instrument that I play well enough to appreciate the difference. It's about having an experience, not just being a robot looking at someone's performance. Music isn't just about technique and SC2 is entertainment just as much as it is a game about minor details. Totally agree. Tyler's sarcastic comments are just showing off his elitism. I don't blame him, really. It's a product of the direct communication between fans and pros e-sports has grown up with. The only reason you don't see it rear its ugly head in the context of other sports is because they lack this communication.
He sounds elitist because he actually is elite compared to you and the vast majority of casual starcraft spectators. When you have tons of experience and knowledge about something, you tend to have different standards. There are many music fans that go to concerts and are disappointed if the band doesn't have an energetic live show banging on trash cans or running around like idiots. It could be Paul Gilbert shredding for his life but if that's all there is to it then it will only satisfy diehard music/guitar fans.
Dreamhack had so much that would entertain people who have never seen Starcraft. I took a friend who has never played to IPL4 and he had a blast. I would not make him watch MLG Arena because it's not that kind of event. All it had was SC2. Which Tyler is a fan of. That's all it needs for some people. For others, it's not enough.
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On April 24 2012 03:02 Bashion wrote:
I paid for MLG but i spent my time watching DH, mostly. You can call me crazy or whatever, but i simply didn't enjoy this MLG event.
People are complaining about the first day of DH, but MLG's was also bad, especially if your favorite players are Protoss.
I had more fun listening to Wolf/dApollo/Incontrol than Tastosis. Even tho Grubby made MLG way better, i dont know, i didnt enjoy it.
Same for me. Bought MLG pass and on sunday i only watched the finals. I enjoyed Dreamhack a lot more. Having watched so much sc2 the hype and energy of Dreamhack felt fresh and exciting. Probably not going to prioritize watching those MLG Arenas in the future, there's just so much sc2 available all day every day that a little more of the same is just not worth my time. I didn't watch DH day1 so can't comment on that.
Apollo and Wolf topping the MLG cast imo. Grubby was really good, Tasteless doesn't know anything anymore and often breaks the rhytm of the cast, Artosis imo the best caster with Apollo and Wheat is pretty good when you pair him with an analytical(?) dude like Grubby etc.
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So you diss tasteless for not knowing anything and then you name wheat, really dude?
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On April 24 2012 03:02 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 02:51 zefreak wrote:On April 23 2012 22:38 bbm wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. Agreed. At least with the first two sentences, before you turned into a collosal dick. The games were better, the first person was great, as was the analyst discussion cool. But that's about it. The atmosphere was muted and storylines almost non-existant (until the finals obv). During the FIFA 2002 world cup, two storylines riveted me. One was my home country, the other was that of Senegal. A team that had never qualified before, who beat reigning champions France in their first match, then tied with Denmark and Uraguay to come second in their group, and then beat Sweden in the Ro16. Underdogs and home pride. It makes a big difference to the enjoyment you can get out of a tournament. Someone to root for, someone to cheer for. DRG's my favourite player out of the 8 there and I was cheering for him in this tournament, but I'd always cheer for demuslim or bling over him. I WANT an upset, whether it's a big one like scarlett or a relatively lesser one (not taking away from them but they're already great) like Ret > Genius or Nerchio > Hyun. There's continual complaints about "useless games", especially since Naniwa's blizz cup scandal. MLG doing round robin, fine, but playing all 3 games even if a winner is already decided? IMO round robin lacks suspense, at least before it gets to the last few matches, and then it can be very confusing (such as, I believe, drg v parting being eliminated was decided after drg had won his last series, but not before his last game? wat). I have nothing invested in those games. I'm hesitant to complain too much about round robin, since having more games played with less players is only a good thing though. DH wasn't a perfect event (whole first day was pretty retarded), but it was a bigger one, a more hyped one, and arguably a better one. tl;dr: The games were better, the actual event wasn't. Lack of storylines and suspense lead to me feeling less invested in the results of the games. If I was watching the vods I'd much prefer the MLG ones, but I wasn't. I was watching entire tournaments. edit: Trimmed it up a bit because I rambled like fuck. Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2. 1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove. 2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up. 3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above. All of these things do add to an experience that most people will enjoy, there is no doubt about that. My point is not that these things are bad or anything of the sort. My point is that some people are fans of the game, while others are fans of the drama, emotion and spectacle. Sure, they probably like the game a bit but they are more drawn towards the players, personalities and underdog storylines. Some people are passionate about the game itself, and want to see the highest level of play without distractions. Accept that it is the case. It's not 'wrong' to enjoy the peripheral aspects of competitive starcraft. But accept it for what it is. All the above enhance the SC2 experience, they are not beside it. They are the pop corn and cola of films.
Yeah, and some people would rather watch Citizen Kane regardless of popcorn and cola, while others would rather watch Avatar with it. Would you call both groups 'film buffs'?
But there are so many people who seem to value the popcorn and cola more than the film. There are people that will stop watching a tournament because there are no more white people in it. There are people that will not watch a tournament because there are no crowds cheering.
I don't mean to imply that you have to only care about starcraft to be a fan. The storylines and stuff do add to it like you said. They are popcorn and soda. It's just that the more of a film-buff you are, the less important the popcorn and soda becomes.
And this Dreamhack-MLG discussion is really showing just how unimportant the actual game is to some people.
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On April 24 2012 03:09 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 00:31 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On April 23 2012 22:59 hugman wrote:On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value. I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2. I understand your perspective, but you're in a very small minority. Most people don't have the time or the talent to learn the game well enough to really appreciate the subtleties of a certain build. It's really condescending to imply that you have to be a pro player to be a fan of SC2. The people who paid 30$ for DH tickets aren't fans of SC2? Not only is it condescending, it's also wrong. No, I'm not good enough at SC2 to typically enjoy watching a VOD without commentary and without knowing who the players are, just watching the game. There's more that goes into creating an enjoyable viewer experience than just the most minor details that make some players stand out to you. Good casters add to the enjoyment, a good atmosphere at a live event adds to the enjoyment and so does a good storyline (Korean vs foreigner in his home town). There's nothing wrong with that and it also doesn't mean that the quality of play is irrelevant. It's obvious that the starting field at DH was a lot weaker than at MLG and that was a minus for DH, the other parts made up for it though. I don't think it was the best event ever, mostly because of the players and the games, but it was still more enjoyable for me than MLG. If I go see a live music performance and there's a good atmosphere then I'm going to have a much better time than I would listening to a technically more proficient performance at home on my stereo, even if it's an instrument that I play well enough to appreciate the difference. It's about having an experience, not just being a robot looking at someone's performance. Music isn't just about technique and SC2 is entertainment just as much as it is a game about minor details. Totally agree. Tyler's sarcastic comments are just showing off his elitism. I don't blame him, really. It's a product of the direct communication between fans and pros e-sports has grown up with. The only reason you don't see it rear its ugly head in the context of other sports is because they lack this communication. He sounds elitist because he actually is elite compared to you and the vast majority of casual starcraft spectators. When you have tons of experience and knowledge about something, you tend to have different standards. There are many music fans that go to concerts and are disappointed if the band doesn't have an energetic live show banging on trash cans or running around like idiots. It could be Paul Gilbert shredding for his life but if that's all there is to it then it will only satisfy diehard music/guitar fans. Dreamhack had so much that would entertain people who have never seen Starcraft. I took a friend who has never played to IPL4 and he had a blast. I would not make him watch MLG Arena because it's not that kind of event. All it had was SC2. Which Tyler is a fan of. That's all it needs for some people. For others, it's not enough.
If Tyler ever says anything about how the game works etc, 99,9% of the forum should shut up. But we are talking about which event does a better job, and who makes the best viewer experience. He clearly states his views are skewed, and he mostly wants to watch replays. Is that the viewerbase these events try to get? No, he is a minority, and in this special case, his view is actually one of the less important. We, the dumbasses, are actually the people that have opinions that matter in this case, we are the target audience. So its good that we debate what was good, or bad with one event. Its good that people disagree about which elements are the best. So in the future we might end up with a hybrid that far surpasses both events.
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On April 24 2012 03:19 Ravnemesteren wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:09 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 00:31 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:On April 23 2012 22:59 hugman wrote:On April 23 2012 22:12 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:01 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. By this standards IPL 4 is the best event that there ever was. Sorry but a tournament is also about the mood and production value. I'm not denying that other people have other interests. I pointed some of them out. But a tournament isn't about anything really. There's a competition going on and it can be presented in any number of ways that prioritize different interests. Mood and production value are important to a lot of people. My two biggest priorities are game quality (best players in the world playing interesting games) and stream quality (clear video and audio). So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2. I understand your perspective, but you're in a very small minority. Most people don't have the time or the talent to learn the game well enough to really appreciate the subtleties of a certain build. It's really condescending to imply that you have to be a pro player to be a fan of SC2. The people who paid 30$ for DH tickets aren't fans of SC2? Not only is it condescending, it's also wrong. No, I'm not good enough at SC2 to typically enjoy watching a VOD without commentary and without knowing who the players are, just watching the game. There's more that goes into creating an enjoyable viewer experience than just the most minor details that make some players stand out to you. Good casters add to the enjoyment, a good atmosphere at a live event adds to the enjoyment and so does a good storyline (Korean vs foreigner in his home town). There's nothing wrong with that and it also doesn't mean that the quality of play is irrelevant. It's obvious that the starting field at DH was a lot weaker than at MLG and that was a minus for DH, the other parts made up for it though. I don't think it was the best event ever, mostly because of the players and the games, but it was still more enjoyable for me than MLG. If I go see a live music performance and there's a good atmosphere then I'm going to have a much better time than I would listening to a technically more proficient performance at home on my stereo, even if it's an instrument that I play well enough to appreciate the difference. It's about having an experience, not just being a robot looking at someone's performance. Music isn't just about technique and SC2 is entertainment just as much as it is a game about minor details. Totally agree. Tyler's sarcastic comments are just showing off his elitism. I don't blame him, really. It's a product of the direct communication between fans and pros e-sports has grown up with. The only reason you don't see it rear its ugly head in the context of other sports is because they lack this communication. He sounds elitist because he actually is elite compared to you and the vast majority of casual starcraft spectators. When you have tons of experience and knowledge about something, you tend to have different standards. There are many music fans that go to concerts and are disappointed if the band doesn't have an energetic live show banging on trash cans or running around like idiots. It could be Paul Gilbert shredding for his life but if that's all there is to it then it will only satisfy diehard music/guitar fans. Dreamhack had so much that would entertain people who have never seen Starcraft. I took a friend who has never played to IPL4 and he had a blast. I would not make him watch MLG Arena because it's not that kind of event. All it had was SC2. Which Tyler is a fan of. That's all it needs for some people. For others, it's not enough. If Tyler ever says anything about how the game works etc, 99,9% of the forum should shut up. But we are talking about which event does a better job, and who makes the best viewer experience. He clearly states his views are skewed, and he mostly wants to watch replays. Is that the viewerbase these events try to get? No, he is a minority, and in this special case, his view is actually one of the less important. We, the dumbasses, are actually the people that have opinions that matter in this case, we are the target audience. So its good that we debate what was good, or bad with one event. Its good that people disagree about which elements are the best. So in the future we might end up with a hybrid that far surpasses both events.
I agree with you actually, but I don't think Tyler ever did anything other than give his opinion. His opinion as a professional will obviously be different than most who are only spectators. And yet these spectators are jumping down his throat for him essentially saying that he is more of a fan of starcraft 2, and that the games are all he cares about.
I don't think the discussion was ever about which event more successfully targets the widest audience. If so then I doubt Tyler would disagree.
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On April 24 2012 03:15 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:02 Bashion wrote:
I paid for MLG but i spent my time watching DH, mostly. You can call me crazy or whatever, but i simply didn't enjoy this MLG event.
People are complaining about the first day of DH, but MLG's was also bad, especially if your favorite players are Protoss.
I had more fun listening to Wolf/dApollo/Incontrol than Tastosis. Even tho Grubby made MLG way better, i dont know, i didnt enjoy it.
Same for me. Bought MLG pass and on sunday i only watched the finals. I enjoyed Dreamhack a lot more. Having watched so much sc2 the hype and energy of Dreamhack felt fresh and exciting. Probably not going to prioritize watching those MLG Arenas in the future, there's just so much sc2 available all day every day that a little more of the same is just not worth my time. I didn't watch DH day1 so can't comment on that. Apollo and Wolf topping the MLG cast imo. Grubby was really good, Tasteless doesn't know anything anymore and often breaks the rhytm of the cast, Artosis imo the best caster with Apollo and Wheat is pretty good when you pair him with an analytical(?) dude like Grubby etc.
I love Tasteless so much and I enjoyed his casting this weekend as always, but sadly you are right.
His work involves SC2 and he's fully immersed in the scene, so the casting isn't bad by a long shot. But that's it. You can quickly tell he no longer plays, and almost as quickly you will realize that Tasteless knows very, very little about SC2. The contrast between Artosis and Tasteless as they cast is shocking. It's awesome to hear something new from Artosis every cast, and it's a privilege to get his insight throughout the games. Tasteless, while hilarious and usually never outright wrong, does indeed break the rhythm of the cast.
P.S. The only reason I even make this point is because Tasteless' earlier casts are fucking outstanding. His BW casting rivals that of the best casters in any medium. He is certainly still very capable.
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On April 24 2012 03:17 Technique wrote:
So you diss tasteless for not knowing anything and then you name wheat, really dude?
Imo Wheat knows more about the game atm than Tasteless and he does better play by play. Tasteless seems like an awesome guy but if you listen to his casting objectively it's not that good.
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On April 24 2012 02:51 zefreak wrote:
Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2.
1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove.
2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up.
3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above.
All of these things do add to an experience that most people will enjoy, there is no doubt about that. My point is not that these things are bad or anything of the sort. My point is that some people are fans of the game, while others are fans of the drama, emotion and spectacle. Sure, they probably like the game a bit but they are more drawn towards the players, personalities and underdog storylines.
Some people are passionate about the game itself, and want to see the highest level of play without distractions. Accept that it is the case. It's not 'wrong' to enjoy the peripheral aspects of competitive starcraft. But accept it for what it is.
Life must be depressing if you see anything that makes thing more fun and exciting as distractions.
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On April 24 2012 03:27 Kollapse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:15 Daray wrote:On April 24 2012 03:02 Bashion wrote:
I paid for MLG but i spent my time watching DH, mostly. You can call me crazy or whatever, but i simply didn't enjoy this MLG event.
People are complaining about the first day of DH, but MLG's was also bad, especially if your favorite players are Protoss.
I had more fun listening to Wolf/dApollo/Incontrol than Tastosis. Even tho Grubby made MLG way better, i dont know, i didnt enjoy it.
Same for me. Bought MLG pass and on sunday i only watched the finals. I enjoyed Dreamhack a lot more. Having watched so much sc2 the hype and energy of Dreamhack felt fresh and exciting. Probably not going to prioritize watching those MLG Arenas in the future, there's just so much sc2 available all day every day that a little more of the same is just not worth my time. I didn't watch DH day1 so can't comment on that. Apollo and Wolf topping the MLG cast imo. Grubby was really good, Tasteless doesn't know anything anymore and often breaks the rhytm of the cast, Artosis imo the best caster with Apollo and Wheat is pretty good when you pair him with an analytical(?) dude like Grubby etc. I love Tasteless so much and I enjoyed his casting this weekend as always, but sadly you are right. His work involves SC2 and he's fully immersed in the scene, so the casting isn't bad by a long shot. But that's it. You can quickly tell he no longer plays, and almost as quickly you will realize that Tasteless knows very, very little about SC2. The contrast between Artosis and Tasteless as they cast is shocking. It's awesome to hear something new from Artosis every cast, and it's a privilege to get his insight throughout the games. Tasteless, while hilarious and usually never outright wrong, does indeed break the rhythm of the cast. P.S. The only reason I even make this point is because Tasteless' earlier casts are fucking outstanding. His BW casting rivals that of the best casters in any medium. He is certainly still very capable.
Yeah, I love Tasteless and he is still better than a lot of the lower quality casters, but his lack of game knowledge is become increasingly noticeable. Nothing really drove the point home more than watching Artosis cast with Khaldor (which was fantastic) and watching Tasteless cast with randoms at MLG Winter Championship/Arena (which was sad).
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On April 24 2012 03:39 sereniity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 02:51 zefreak wrote:
Do you guys not even bother reading Tyler's post? You say that he is being condescending and that everyone is as big a fan of SC2 as he is. And then you ramble off a list of things that make Dreamhack the better tournament, none of which have anything to do with SC2.
1.Production - awesome for showing your family that e-sports is big and professional and legitimate. Not actually very important to people that don't have anything to prove.
2. Storyline - important to most people, considering that most people's appreciation of high level starcraft is non-existent. Storylines are what I tell my friends who don't play the game to get them hyped and interested. For someone with Tyler's understanding of the game, the foreigner/korean storyline is of minimal importance. It's all flash and filler. Starcraft is almost peripheral to people that care about storyline as extremely important. It could be any competition with an underdog story and you guys would lap it up.
3. Crowd/audience/cheering - Another distraction, same as above.
All of these things do add to an experience that most people will enjoy, there is no doubt about that. My point is not that these things are bad or anything of the sort. My point is that some people are fans of the game, while others are fans of the drama, emotion and spectacle. Sure, they probably like the game a bit but they are more drawn towards the players, personalities and underdog storylines.
Some people are passionate about the game itself, and want to see the highest level of play without distractions. Accept that it is the case. It's not 'wrong' to enjoy the peripheral aspects of competitive starcraft. But accept it for what it is.
Life must be depressing if you see anything that makes thing more fun and exciting as distractions.
Distractions is probably a poor choice of word. They are icing on the cake, and I hope I explained myself in my last few posts. They add, not subtract from the experience but it still just icing.
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On April 24 2012 03:27 Kollapse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:15 Daray wrote:On April 24 2012 03:02 Bashion wrote:
I paid for MLG but i spent my time watching DH, mostly. You can call me crazy or whatever, but i simply didn't enjoy this MLG event.
People are complaining about the first day of DH, but MLG's was also bad, especially if your favorite players are Protoss.
I had more fun listening to Wolf/dApollo/Incontrol than Tastosis. Even tho Grubby made MLG way better, i dont know, i didnt enjoy it.
Same for me. Bought MLG pass and on sunday i only watched the finals. I enjoyed Dreamhack a lot more. Having watched so much sc2 the hype and energy of Dreamhack felt fresh and exciting. Probably not going to prioritize watching those MLG Arenas in the future, there's just so much sc2 available all day every day that a little more of the same is just not worth my time. I didn't watch DH day1 so can't comment on that. Apollo and Wolf topping the MLG cast imo. Grubby was really good, Tasteless doesn't know anything anymore and often breaks the rhytm of the cast, Artosis imo the best caster with Apollo and Wheat is pretty good when you pair him with an analytical(?) dude like Grubby etc. I love Tasteless so much and I enjoyed his casting this weekend as always, but sadly you are right. His work involves SC2 and he's fully immersed in the scene, so the casting isn't bad by a long shot. But that's it. You can quickly tell he no longer plays, and almost as quickly you will realize that Tasteless knows very, very little about SC2. The contrast between Artosis and Tasteless as they cast is shocking. It's awesome to hear something new from Artosis every cast, and it's a privilege to get his insight throughout the games. Tasteless, while hilarious and usually never outright wrong, does indeed break the rhythm of the cast. P.S. The only reason I even make this point is because Tasteless' earlier casts are fucking outstanding. His BW casting rivals that of the best casters in any medium. He is certainly still very capable.
This times 100. Tasteless is my favorite caster next to Artosis, but its clear that he doesn't play anymore and its a shame. Though his humor is still there, his knowledge of the current state of the game (no pun intended) is gone.
He did start a tradition between me and my friends though. Everytime its a TvZ on Entombed Valley and he says, "You can place a Marine in that little nook back there and then build a bunker infront of him", we take a drink. 
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On April 24 2012 03:28 Daray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:17 Technique wrote:
So you diss tasteless for not knowing anything and then you name wheat, really dude? Imo Wheat knows more about the game atm than Tasteless and he does better play by play. Tasteless seems like an awesome guy but if you listen to his casting objectively it's not that good.
From ridiculous statements like that i get the feeling that people don't understand that when he asks a question to artosis it doesn't actually mean he doesn't know what's happening. He just wants the listeners to hear the answers.
DjWheat just knows what people tell him, he has very little actual insight of his own, just like every other caster out there that has never been anywhere near close to being a competitive rts player. So to say he knows more then tasteless is really silly, to say the least. Even if tasteless is hardly playing now (which i don't know if he is or is not), he's just a team player in casting.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 24 2012 03:44 Fueled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:27 Kollapse wrote:On April 24 2012 03:15 Daray wrote:On April 24 2012 03:02 Bashion wrote:
I paid for MLG but i spent my time watching DH, mostly. You can call me crazy or whatever, but i simply didn't enjoy this MLG event.
People are complaining about the first day of DH, but MLG's was also bad, especially if your favorite players are Protoss.
I had more fun listening to Wolf/dApollo/Incontrol than Tastosis. Even tho Grubby made MLG way better, i dont know, i didnt enjoy it.
Same for me. Bought MLG pass and on sunday i only watched the finals. I enjoyed Dreamhack a lot more. Having watched so much sc2 the hype and energy of Dreamhack felt fresh and exciting. Probably not going to prioritize watching those MLG Arenas in the future, there's just so much sc2 available all day every day that a little more of the same is just not worth my time. I didn't watch DH day1 so can't comment on that. Apollo and Wolf topping the MLG cast imo. Grubby was really good, Tasteless doesn't know anything anymore and often breaks the rhytm of the cast, Artosis imo the best caster with Apollo and Wheat is pretty good when you pair him with an analytical(?) dude like Grubby etc. I love Tasteless so much and I enjoyed his casting this weekend as always, but sadly you are right. His work involves SC2 and he's fully immersed in the scene, so the casting isn't bad by a long shot. But that's it. You can quickly tell he no longer plays, and almost as quickly you will realize that Tasteless knows very, very little about SC2. The contrast between Artosis and Tasteless as they cast is shocking. It's awesome to hear something new from Artosis every cast, and it's a privilege to get his insight throughout the games. Tasteless, while hilarious and usually never outright wrong, does indeed break the rhythm of the cast. P.S. The only reason I even make this point is because Tasteless' earlier casts are fucking outstanding. His BW casting rivals that of the best casters in any medium. He is certainly still very capable. This times 100. Tasteless is my favorite caster next to Artosis, but its clear that he doesn't play anymore and its a shame. Though his humor is still there, his knowledge of the current state of the game (no pun intended) is gone. He did start a tradition between me and my friends though. Everytime its a TvZ on Entombed Valley and he says, "You can place a Marine in that little nook back there and then build a bunker infront of him", we take a drink.
We need a Tasteless map discussion drinking game.
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On April 24 2012 03:44 Fueled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:27 Kollapse wrote:On April 24 2012 03:15 Daray wrote:On April 24 2012 03:02 Bashion wrote:
I paid for MLG but i spent my time watching DH, mostly. You can call me crazy or whatever, but i simply didn't enjoy this MLG event.
People are complaining about the first day of DH, but MLG's was also bad, especially if your favorite players are Protoss.
I had more fun listening to Wolf/dApollo/Incontrol than Tastosis. Even tho Grubby made MLG way better, i dont know, i didnt enjoy it.
Same for me. Bought MLG pass and on sunday i only watched the finals. I enjoyed Dreamhack a lot more. Having watched so much sc2 the hype and energy of Dreamhack felt fresh and exciting. Probably not going to prioritize watching those MLG Arenas in the future, there's just so much sc2 available all day every day that a little more of the same is just not worth my time. I didn't watch DH day1 so can't comment on that. Apollo and Wolf topping the MLG cast imo. Grubby was really good, Tasteless doesn't know anything anymore and often breaks the rhytm of the cast, Artosis imo the best caster with Apollo and Wheat is pretty good when you pair him with an analytical(?) dude like Grubby etc. I love Tasteless so much and I enjoyed his casting this weekend as always, but sadly you are right. His work involves SC2 and he's fully immersed in the scene, so the casting isn't bad by a long shot. But that's it. You can quickly tell he no longer plays, and almost as quickly you will realize that Tasteless knows very, very little about SC2. The contrast between Artosis and Tasteless as they cast is shocking. It's awesome to hear something new from Artosis every cast, and it's a privilege to get his insight throughout the games. Tasteless, while hilarious and usually never outright wrong, does indeed break the rhythm of the cast. P.S. The only reason I even make this point is because Tasteless' earlier casts are fucking outstanding. His BW casting rivals that of the best casters in any medium. He is certainly still very capable. This times 100. Tasteless is my favorite caster next to Artosis, but its clear that he doesn't play anymore and its a shame. Though his humor is still there, his knowledge of the current state of the game (no pun intended) is gone. He did start a tradition between me and my friends though. Everytime its a TvZ on Entombed Valley and he says, "You can place a Marine in that little nook back there and then build a bunker infront of him", we take a drink.
It's actually really cute, he will see something in a game that blows his mind and then he will mention it every chance he gets for the next year and a half.
I get a chuckle from that bunker placement, as well as the floating attack factory that he loves so much.
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On April 24 2012 03:49 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:28 Daray wrote:On April 24 2012 03:17 Technique wrote:
So you diss tasteless for not knowing anything and then you name wheat, really dude? Imo Wheat knows more about the game atm than Tasteless and he does better play by play. Tasteless seems like an awesome guy but if you listen to his casting objectively it's not that good. From ridiculous statements like that i get the feeling that people don't understand that when he asks a question to artosis it doesn't actually mean he doesn't know what's happening. He just wants the listeners to hear the answers. DjWheat just knows what people tell him, he has very little actual insight of his own, just like every other caster out there that has never been anywhere near close to being a competitive rts player. So to say he knows more then tasteless is really silly, to say the least. Even if tasteless is hardly playing now (which i don't know if he is or is not), he's just a team player in casting.
Yeah, except djWheat streams his master NA ladder play many many days a week, and talks through scenarios and various things he encounters as he improves both his playing skill and knowledge of the game. He's putting in a shitload of time considering his background with shooters, and I think it is showing in the quality of his casting. His casts with Grubby during this past weekend were my favorite casts honestly.
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I get a chuckle from that bunker placement, as well as the floating attack factory that he loves so much.
Yep haha
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EPT
