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On April 24 2012 10:23 hakha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 08:24 archonOOid wrote:
My problem with nonys comments are that while he states that the quality of the games are the most important thing he is spectator in a tournament setting. A tournament like MLG will have a varied degree of skillful or interesting matches despite the skill of the invitees. MLG will have downtime between the matches, meaningless banter between the casters and a lot of fluff. So by watching a tournament live you are watching to see something else than just good quality matches without out fluff. If you are truly dedicated to quality games you should watch recommended VODs and if that's not the case you are to some degree interested in the entertainment. There's something completely different between watching games live and watching VODs. Different feeling, different expectation and a sense of not knowing whats going to happen next. The aspects of tournaments you describe has become standard. Downtime is always expected in tournaments, completely unreasonable to expect no downtime.....you can't expect to make a logical argument saying you should only watch the VODs of a tournament because theres downtime. Similarly, fluff and caster banter is now expected at all tournaments because of the community. I mean, the MAJORITY of the sc2 community would watch a tournament with good casters vs a similar tournament with no-name casters. And also, I felt really bored by DH.... the ending was epic and all that, but i really couldnt stand the first day and a half of DH for a few reasons: The first 2 group stages were completely rubbish with randoms everywhere and groups where favourites HAD to progress. I have no idea where to find specific games on the 7-8 streams on TL, like if I wanted to watch HyuN's games, I had to hope his games were on a certain stream at a certain time.
Ya, the issue with DreamHack is that it packs a (theorically) 128 player tournament in two days, with no players being pre-qualified for higher rounds. Since most of the players entered are amateures it makes for a really, really bad first day and a half. Perhaps cutting down the field to, say, 32 in online qualifiers would help? That might defeat the "feel" the organizers are going for, though.
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On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
...a Pareto improvement....
And THAT's why he's one of my favorite players to root for.
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Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from:
On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
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On April 24 2012 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:22 resilve wrote:On April 23 2012 22:35 Liquid`NonY wrote:On April 23 2012 22:28 Zorkmid wrote:On April 23 2012 22:19 demitap wrote:
Sorry, but sometime you really make me feel like you're sad person, DH Finals was so much more exciting than mlg, mlg was cold, sad and really not better than any weekly cup this time, while DH had this amazing crowd, more players and at least foreigners fought back against koreans( I'm not trying to bash huk, but he got Roflstomed this mlg, humiliated) And HuK would likely have roflstomped just about anyone at DH. HuK was off but I definitely think there were 4-5 people at MLG that had a good chance of winning DH. In fact if you put all 8 MLG players into DH, then the chance of one of them winning DH is like 90% haha Thats true, but it doesn't in any way invalidate DH as a more enjoyable tournament (I am not inferring that you are making that point). I'd rather watch a tournament with a 10 foreigners and 6 koreans in the top 16 than one with 2 foreigners and 14 koreans. I don't care if the quality of games drops down by a few % by manipulating this, the quality of entertainment skyrockets. It's a balancing act - sure to get the best games you need to involve koreans, and the more koreans the better the games on average will be in terms of skill and tactical execution. However I would rather watch a foreigner battle with a korean and have real emotion and passion should they win than see two automatons battle it out. A lot of people have a problem with that, but I have no issues with stating the simple fact that getting behind a player and REALLY feeling for them and wanting them to win trumps any kind of objective measurement like skill. It's just perfect that last night's contrast between DH and MLG made the point perfectly. If I want to watch the world's best sc2 games I will buy a GSL season ticket. If I want to see an event where players I truely support, and with real pride, take the fight to a selection of good koreans then I will tune in to a DH/MLG/IEM - except MLG arena denies me this. Yeah I have no problem with people saying what they like to watch People talking up DH's event as amazing are clearly not being objective and accurately descriptive.
a good deal like that seems striking to me
If people felt it was amazing, naturally that is accurately descriptive?
and how do you expect anyone to be "objective" when rating the how 'amazing' something was?
I think you know this isn't handpicked as well, one could go through your posts like this, you wave from ultra hard and objective to everything being fine and everyone being entitled to their opinion.
Some will agree with you in your preference, but arguing that you preference is "objectively" right seems ridiculous to me
You talked about people widening your "narrow scope" so i will be careful as to not assume, that i know what you are talking about, but i do find you to be unwilling to do the same for me or other people, at least in the last 10 pages in this thread.
You seem like such a down to earth guy normally, and i think what happens for me is: (and might be happening to a few others) is i follow this damn game now, and i watch this Tyler guy on SOTG and he seems to me so impressively calm, and friendly, and while long-winded at times, (in the best possible way) he seems to always count several perspectives before talking... but now when you respond to a wall of various posts,i think people get a sense of betrayal, not that i was necessarily entitled to the other Tyler, but ah well, just trying to explain where it might be comming from.
I really don't post this to give you more to respond to so feel free not to, my bed and book are calling gnight all,
and btw i think both events where amazing... sometimes i watch cheesy existential astronomy videos from bbc, other times my mood is for hard more stringent philosophy, i think you can be interested in something and enjoy different layers of it without having to be more or less right.
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On April 24 2012 10:32 Fischbacher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 05:25 Liquid`NonY wrote:
My comments aren't rude. There are just a lot of people that don't understand them and misinterpret them. I can virtually guarantee that something I say with a narrow scope will be widened by a ton of people responding to it because it suits them to widen it in order to argue against it. I can also virtually guarantee that something I say that doesn't necessarily imply other things will be taken as implying those other things by people responding to it because it's easier for them to argue against those other things. This happens in every single discussion on TL.net ever.
Saying "white people" instead of "foreigners" and "people clapping and cheering" instead of "audience" is not rude. I rephrased them to show how meaningless they are to me. Almost no one in the community disagrees with me. It is universally accepted that a tournament is better off with foreigners making it deep and an enthusiastic audience. And yet those things don't resonate with absolutely everyone watching the tournament (but they hardly make the tournament worse for anyone -- a Pareto improvement). They hardly resonate with me. I could go on: the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more.
I can strip it down all the way to the extreme of watching games between Player1 and Player2 with no commentary and no overlay and a blank screen between games. If the observer is good, the players are good and the stream is good, I'm happy. If people are gonna call bullshit on me on that because the tournament closer to that happens to be an MLG tournament, then I'll point out how stupid I think their interests are. Especially when their interests tug at the limited resources a tournament has and threaten my interests, which are the core of the whole thing. While it is entirely true that a lot of people that are quite hardcore StarCraft fans (the high master league type and/or people that have a keen strategic understanding of the game) only care about the quality of the games, those people are undoubtly a minority of everyone watching. The bigger the scene grows, the smaller that percentage will be. How many Football fans can honestly say that they could genuinely get exited about a game featuring a red and a blue team with faceless players, faceless coaches and all played in a spectatorless stadium? The hardcore fans, the kind that think like a manager and the kind that care about how their team play above and beyond whether or not they win will enjoy it if the game is good. But the average fan? Fat chance. Honestly, most average Football fans have a knowledge of the rules that makes me cringe even as someone with a somewhat limited knowledge of the game (~1 year of experience as a rec league refferee). Football is obviously an obsurbe example considering how massive its fanbase is, but the point remain: as you get bigger more of your fans are casuals and casuals generally don't understand the game all that much. What Football games get remembered? The good games or the games that are played on the biggest stages? Like it or not, the games people will talk about years from now are World Cup finals, Euro finals, Championship Leagues finals and the matches leading up to them that added to the tournament's storyline. People will remember Uruguay - Ghana for decades, not because it was a great match from a tactical or technical standpoint but because it was a great storyline (similar to a "foreigner" making it far in a SC2 tournament, really, if you say that a "foreigner" in Football is a non-European/Latin American) that was dashed by last minute high drama. The point is that, yes, the stage matter. You might play the best game of all times on ladder, but nobody will remember it. People will, however, remember game 7 of the Blizzard Cup finals for a long time, not necessarily because it was the best game of 2011 (I guess some might argue it was the best series of 2011, but that's beyond the point) but because it was the game that mattered the most in 2011, played on the game's biggest stage. Point being, the stage, the players and the storylines matter more than the games themselves (within reason, I don't think anyone but the most hardcore Spanish fans actually enjoyed the 2010 FIFA World Cup finals - gosh that game was bad, but hey, we still all watched it) to the casual fans. And at the end of the day, casual fans outnumber "real" fans in pretty much every single sport (the only ready counterexample I can think of is chess, but the pro chess scene is arguably rather niche anyway). The casual fans are the one being cathered to in every sport out there because, at the end of the day, they are the ones that provide eyeballs to advertizers and buy tickets. Casuals might have a stupid interest, but at the end of the day they are the ones that pay TL's, MLG's and Blizzard's bills.
This is a great post, if for its even handed description of what is happening in the community. I tried to do the same but because my personal view is that such an interest is stupid, it seeped into my post and caused more controversy than necessary. I feel that this is also what happened to Tyler.
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Canada5565 Posts
lol you guys are freaking out
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On April 24 2012 13:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from: Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. Show nested quote +
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
Sometimes condescension is justified. Not everyone is an expert and the sooner people realize this and stop thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid, the better. It's like refusing to draw the line between people that like a concert because of the crowd, energy, and aesthetics and someone who owns thousands of LP's and can understand music on both an emotional and intellectual level. They can both be considered fans of music, but to deny that one is more of a fan of music while another is more a fan of going to shows (even if they casually enjoy the music as well) should not be considered condescending.
Tyler is a hardcore fan of SC2 the game. Most of us are casual fans of SC2 the game and casual to hardcore fans of starcraft 2 events. We watch it for the spectacle, storyline, and a little bit of the game. He watches for the game. How is it wrong to say that he is a bigger fan of the game?
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On April 24 2012 14:49 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 13:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
Sometimes condescension is justified. Not everyone is an expert and the sooner people realize this and stop thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid, the better. It's like refusing to draw the line between people that like a concert because of the crowd, energy, and aesthetics and someone who owns thousands of LP's and can understand music on both an emotional and intellectual level. They can both be considered fans of music, but to deny that one is more of a fan of music while another is more a fan of going to shows (even if they casually enjoy the music as well) should not be considered condescending. Tyler is a hardcore fan of SC2 the game. Most of us are casual fans of SC2 the game and casual to hardcore fans of starcraft 2 events. We watch it for the spectacle, storyline, and a little bit of the game. He watches for the game. How is it wrong to say that he is a bigger fan of the game?
Because he is a player. He is the subject of a tournament. We are the viewers that look at the subject. It is stupid to even compare the opinnions since we are the viewing target of a tournament.
When you make a focus group for a game or a movie you don't bring for the test people from the respective industry, but people that are the target, the casual, random user.
So he is not a fan of a SC2 he is a part of the industry, an employee that likes his job. WE ARE THE FANS of the game and the players.
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On April 24 2012 13:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from: Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering. Show nested quote +
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
I feel the same way, actually. I've been thinking about it a lot recently... Most of the community seems to be more interested in the idea of ESPORTS than SC2, you know? Big crowds, more money, more exposure instead of just caring about the game and the quality of the games being played, which should be the priority! Or not, I guess. It's fine if people are more interested in ESPORTS than the game being played... It doesn't make him condescending for saying what he said, though.
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On April 24 2012 16:14 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 13:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
I feel the same way, actually. I've been thinking about it a lot recently... Most of the community seems to be more interested in the idea of ESPORTS than SC2, you know? Big crowds, more money, more exposure instead of just caring about the game and the quality of the games being played, which should be the priority! Or not, I guess. It's fine if people are more interested in ESPORTS than the game being played... It doesn't make him condescending for saying what he said, though.
Yeah, I definitely feel this way.
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On April 24 2012 15:59 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 14:49 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 13:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
Sometimes condescension is justified. Not everyone is an expert and the sooner people realize this and stop thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid, the better. It's like refusing to draw the line between people that like a concert because of the crowd, energy, and aesthetics and someone who owns thousands of LP's and can understand music on both an emotional and intellectual level. They can both be considered fans of music, but to deny that one is more of a fan of music while another is more a fan of going to shows (even if they casually enjoy the music as well) should not be considered condescending. Tyler is a hardcore fan of SC2 the game. Most of us are casual fans of SC2 the game and casual to hardcore fans of starcraft 2 events. We watch it for the spectacle, storyline, and a little bit of the game. He watches for the game. How is it wrong to say that he is a bigger fan of the game? Because he is a player. He is the subject of a tournament. We are the viewers that look at the subject. It is stupid to even compare the opinnions since we are the viewing target of a tournament. When you make a focus group for a game or a movie you don't bring for the test people from the respective industry, but people that are the target, the casual, random user. So he is not a fan of a SC2 he is a part of the industry, an employee that likes his job. WE ARE THE FANS of the game and the players.
This is just wrong. In the context of his post, he is a fan. It's not his job to watch tournaments, and it takes a lot of verbal twisting and slight of hand to make it seem like it is.
It's honestly not hard to understand, and I feel like some of you are being ridiculously stubborn. He is expressing the opinion as a fan of the game. Not a fan of a team, or player, or koreans or 'foreigners'. He admitted as much in his post. To him, he would be just as happy with player 1 and player 2 as he would with Polt vs ThorZain. To him, the game itself is interesting. Not the characters involved. That means he values the game the most and characters very little. If you preferred Dreamhack because of the storyline, that means that you value the characters more than the game, assuming that MLG actually had higher level play.
I realize that you feel offended at being told that you are not a fan of sc2. It's sort of a natural response. That doesn't mean its not somewhat true. A more accurate (as well as less offensive) way of phrasing it is that he is a hardcore fan of sc2, whereas you are a casual fan of sc2. Does that ease the pain a bit?
Note: I'm not speaking to you specifically in the above. I don't know what you enjoy and what you don't, nor do I know or care of your preferences. I'm speaking to the many people who do prefer the 'storyline' to barebones high level play.
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On April 24 2012 16:35 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 15:59 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 24 2012 14:49 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 13:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
Sometimes condescension is justified. Not everyone is an expert and the sooner people realize this and stop thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid, the better. It's like refusing to draw the line between people that like a concert because of the crowd, energy, and aesthetics and someone who owns thousands of LP's and can understand music on both an emotional and intellectual level. They can both be considered fans of music, but to deny that one is more of a fan of music while another is more a fan of going to shows (even if they casually enjoy the music as well) should not be considered condescending. Tyler is a hardcore fan of SC2 the game. Most of us are casual fans of SC2 the game and casual to hardcore fans of starcraft 2 events. We watch it for the spectacle, storyline, and a little bit of the game. He watches for the game. How is it wrong to say that he is a bigger fan of the game? Because he is a player. He is the subject of a tournament. We are the viewers that look at the subject. It is stupid to even compare the opinnions since we are the viewing target of a tournament. When you make a focus group for a game or a movie you don't bring for the test people from the respective industry, but people that are the target, the casual, random user. So he is not a fan of a SC2 he is a part of the industry, an employee that likes his job. WE ARE THE FANS of the game and the players. This is just wrong. In the context of his post, he is a fan. It's not his job to watch tournaments, and it takes a lot of verbal twisting and slight of hand to make it seem like it is. It's honestly not hard to understand, and I feel like some of you are being ridiculously stubborn. He is expressing the opinion as a fan of the game. Not a fan of a team, or player, or koreans or 'foreigners'. He admitted as much in his post. To him, he would be just as happy with player 1 and player 2 as he would with Polt vs ThorZain. To him, the game itself is interesting. Not the characters involved. That means he values the game the most and characters very little. If you preferred Dreamhack because of the storyline, that means that you value the characters more than the game, assuming that MLG actually had higher level play. I realize that you feel offended at being told that you are not a fan of sc2. It's sort of a natural response. That doesn't mean its not somewhat true. A more accurate (as well as less offensive) way of phrasing it is that he is a hardcore fan of sc2, whereas you are a casual fan of sc2. Does that ease the pain a bit? Note: I'm not speaking to you specifically in the above. I don't know what you enjoy and what you don't, nor do I know or care of your preferences. I'm speaking to the many people who do prefer the 'storyline' to barebones high level play.
It's his job to know everything related to his job. He has to practice and look at tournaments to study competition. It's not twisting it's you being a nony fan without thinking. So he confuses "I am a fan" in his case with "loving my job".
And a tournament has to have good games but so much more to be entertaining. Why do you think casters are important if only the games matter? Why don't we all watch the game live streamed like a replay with the in game sound only? Because every bit of the production value ADDS to the experience.
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On April 24 2012 16:42 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 16:35 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 15:59 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 24 2012 14:49 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 13:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
Sometimes condescension is justified. Not everyone is an expert and the sooner people realize this and stop thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid, the better. It's like refusing to draw the line between people that like a concert because of the crowd, energy, and aesthetics and someone who owns thousands of LP's and can understand music on both an emotional and intellectual level. They can both be considered fans of music, but to deny that one is more of a fan of music while another is more a fan of going to shows (even if they casually enjoy the music as well) should not be considered condescending. Tyler is a hardcore fan of SC2 the game. Most of us are casual fans of SC2 the game and casual to hardcore fans of starcraft 2 events. We watch it for the spectacle, storyline, and a little bit of the game. He watches for the game. How is it wrong to say that he is a bigger fan of the game? Because he is a player. He is the subject of a tournament. We are the viewers that look at the subject. It is stupid to even compare the opinnions since we are the viewing target of a tournament. When you make a focus group for a game or a movie you don't bring for the test people from the respective industry, but people that are the target, the casual, random user. So he is not a fan of a SC2 he is a part of the industry, an employee that likes his job. WE ARE THE FANS of the game and the players. This is just wrong. In the context of his post, he is a fan. It's not his job to watch tournaments, and it takes a lot of verbal twisting and slight of hand to make it seem like it is. It's honestly not hard to understand, and I feel like some of you are being ridiculously stubborn. He is expressing the opinion as a fan of the game. Not a fan of a team, or player, or koreans or 'foreigners'. He admitted as much in his post. To him, he would be just as happy with player 1 and player 2 as he would with Polt vs ThorZain. To him, the game itself is interesting. Not the characters involved. That means he values the game the most and characters very little. If you preferred Dreamhack because of the storyline, that means that you value the characters more than the game, assuming that MLG actually had higher level play. I realize that you feel offended at being told that you are not a fan of sc2. It's sort of a natural response. That doesn't mean its not somewhat true. A more accurate (as well as less offensive) way of phrasing it is that he is a hardcore fan of sc2, whereas you are a casual fan of sc2. Does that ease the pain a bit? Note: I'm not speaking to you specifically in the above. I don't know what you enjoy and what you don't, nor do I know or care of your preferences. I'm speaking to the many people who do prefer the 'storyline' to barebones high level play. It's his job to know everything related to his job. He has to practice and look at tournaments to study competition. It's not twisting it's you being a nony fan without thinking. So he confuses "I am a fan" in his case with "loving my job". And a tournament has to have good games but so much more to be entertaining. Why do you think casters are important if only the games matter? Why don't we all watch the game live streamed like a replay with the in game sound only? Because every bit of the production valuea ADDS to the experience.
They are important to you because the game itself is not enough. If the casters/crowds/storyline is so important to you in order to be entertained, it just means that the cerebral aspect is not enough for you.
It's the same in poker. There are hordes of casual fans that love Daniel Negreanu and Phil Hellmuth and all the other big personalities, and they complain when a player that is actually good like Phil Galfond is on TV because he lacks personality and drama. People that have a deep understanding of the game don't mind however. They don't need personality and drama to enjoy the game.
Being a fan isn't a binary proposition, it's a scale. And the more you are a 'fan' of the game, the less important the bells and whistles are.
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If Nony cares more about the quality of the game than the show around it or the size/excitement of the audience
*insert suprised Bisu meme pic*
Why doesn't he play Bw?
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If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
And how many would watch an awesomely produced tournament with dedicated casters of two players trying to beat the same Minesweeper table before the other?
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On April 24 2012 16:53 Kreb wrote:
If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
Umm.. yeah. That is what I mean. I expect to get flamed by tons of sports fans, but its the same thing as the hordes of football 'fans' in the United States who go batshit crazy at the games and don't even understand the rules. They just like drinking beer and being part of a spectacle. It's all about being part of a tribe and rooting for it. It feels good. But they can't be considered fans of the game, because they don't even understand what is going on half of the time. The players could be playing baseball instead of football and half the crowd wouldn't even notice.
Many people like sports for the social and psychological aspect, and that's it. Fan is such an overused word nowadays. A football fan is someone who studies the game, who would watch it even if nobody else was and could share the experience with nobody. The game is separate from the pomp and circumstance.
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On April 24 2012 16:47 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 16:42 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 24 2012 16:35 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 15:59 ceaRshaf wrote:On April 24 2012 14:49 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 13:57 ceaRshaf wrote:Poor Nony, doesn't understand where people that call him condescending come from: On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
Sometimes condescension is justified. Not everyone is an expert and the sooner people realize this and stop thinking that everyone's opinion is equally valid, the better. It's like refusing to draw the line between people that like a concert because of the crowd, energy, and aesthetics and someone who owns thousands of LP's and can understand music on both an emotional and intellectual level. They can both be considered fans of music, but to deny that one is more of a fan of music while another is more a fan of going to shows (even if they casually enjoy the music as well) should not be considered condescending. Tyler is a hardcore fan of SC2 the game. Most of us are casual fans of SC2 the game and casual to hardcore fans of starcraft 2 events. We watch it for the spectacle, storyline, and a little bit of the game. He watches for the game. How is it wrong to say that he is a bigger fan of the game? Because he is a player. He is the subject of a tournament. We are the viewers that look at the subject. It is stupid to even compare the opinnions since we are the viewing target of a tournament. When you make a focus group for a game or a movie you don't bring for the test people from the respective industry, but people that are the target, the casual, random user. So he is not a fan of a SC2 he is a part of the industry, an employee that likes his job. WE ARE THE FANS of the game and the players. This is just wrong. In the context of his post, he is a fan. It's not his job to watch tournaments, and it takes a lot of verbal twisting and slight of hand to make it seem like it is. It's honestly not hard to understand, and I feel like some of you are being ridiculously stubborn. He is expressing the opinion as a fan of the game. Not a fan of a team, or player, or koreans or 'foreigners'. He admitted as much in his post. To him, he would be just as happy with player 1 and player 2 as he would with Polt vs ThorZain. To him, the game itself is interesting. Not the characters involved. That means he values the game the most and characters very little. If you preferred Dreamhack because of the storyline, that means that you value the characters more than the game, assuming that MLG actually had higher level play. I realize that you feel offended at being told that you are not a fan of sc2. It's sort of a natural response. That doesn't mean its not somewhat true. A more accurate (as well as less offensive) way of phrasing it is that he is a hardcore fan of sc2, whereas you are a casual fan of sc2. Does that ease the pain a bit? Note: I'm not speaking to you specifically in the above. I don't know what you enjoy and what you don't, nor do I know or care of your preferences. I'm speaking to the many people who do prefer the 'storyline' to barebones high level play. It's his job to know everything related to his job. He has to practice and look at tournaments to study competition. It's not twisting it's you being a nony fan without thinking. So he confuses "I am a fan" in his case with "loving my job". And a tournament has to have good games but so much more to be entertaining. Why do you think casters are important if only the games matter? Why don't we all watch the game live streamed like a replay with the in game sound only? Because every bit of the production valuea ADDS to the experience. They are important to you because the game itself is not enough. If the casters/crowds/storyline is so important to you in order to be entertained, it just means that the cerebral aspect is not enough for you. It's the same in poker. There are hordes of casual fans that love Daniel Negreanu and Phil Hellmuth and all the other big personalities, and they complain when a player that is actually good like Phil Galfond is on TV because he lacks personality and drama. People that have a deep understanding of the game don't mind however. They don't need personality and drama to enjoy the game. Being a fan isn't a binary proposition, it's a scale. And the more you are a 'fan' of the game, the less important the bells and whistles are.
Being a fan is also not contigent on having a deep understanding of the game. Having said understanding and deriving pleasure from high level games is just one way of enjoying the game. Your (and Nonys) implication that you are more of a fan (your words) if you understand the game better then others are nothing but an expression of you understanding what a fan should be. Other people have another understanding of what it means to be a fan.
Somebody who volunteers to help run an event for example might consider himself to be "more of a fan" than somebody sitting at home watching the stream, having a really good understanding of the game he sees.
What makes a fan is entusiasm and passion for the game. If that comes from a deep understanding and appriciation of the mechanics of the game, fine. But don't go around telling people that have the same entusiasm for different reasons they are less of a fan for it.
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On April 23 2012 21:58 Liquid`NonY wrote:
MLG's games were far better than DH's. Having fpview was a nice perk too. Of course, I happen to be a fan of SC2. I know a lot of people in the community are bigger fans of white people and shots of people clapping and cheering.
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
NONY'S RIGHT!
If you're a true fan of Starcraft then you are going to want to watch the best games at all times.
It's the only reason to stay up all night to watch the GSL.
Thorzain and Polt would have been eaten alive in NY. DH was "entertaining," but no one can argue it was as high caliber as MKP, DRG, MC, etc.
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On April 24 2012 16:47 Monsen wrote:
If Nony cares more about the quality of the game than the show around it or the size/excitement of the audience
*insert suprised Bisu meme pic*
Why doesn't he play Bw?
Because everyone in BW's is realizing what Nony realized two years ago?
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On April 24 2012 16:59 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 16:53 Kreb wrote:
If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
Umm.. yeah. That is what I mean. I expect to get flamed by tons of sports fans, but its the same thing as the hordes of football 'fans' in the United States who go batshit crazy at the games and don't even understand the rules. They just like drinking beer and being part of a spectacle. It's all about being part of a tribe and rooting for it. It feels good. But they can't be considered fans of the game, because they don't even understand what is going on half of the time. The players could be playing baseball instead of football and half the crowd wouldn't even notice. Many people like sports for the social and psychological aspect, and that's it. Fan is such an overused word nowadays. A football fan is someone who studies the game, who would watch it even if nobody else was and could share the experience with nobody. The game is separate from the pomp and circumstance.
No it isn't, it just isn't.
Between the 2 extremes you describe there is a LAAAARGE grey zone, how do you call this people if not Fans?
Everyone calls them Fans, they are Fans, no matter if you think thats right or not.
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EPT
