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On April 24 2012 17:25 FaRess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:38 Liquid`NonY wrote:
Yeah I have no problem with people saying what they like to watch. I don't like people saying that one event is better than another when each event had different strengths. I don't like people proclaiming that one type of event is the way all events should be. Show nested quote +
So for me, MLG was far better. I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream, then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2. So I'm stuck in the minority of people who are fans of SC2.
You don't like people saying that one event is better than another, to explain us why MLG was far better ? People like to compare starcraft 2 to a real sport, and I truly believe it's a legitimate sport, in sport you have crowds, story lines, players trying to win at home (Thorzain), not a boring atmosphere, the only thing really entertaining about MLG is the DRG VS MKP rivalry, but that rivalry doesn't even belong to the tournament they can fight each other anywhere That point of view saying that the only thing that matter is the skill level of the competition is so wrong, it's not true in sports and not true in this case, it's an elitist point of view that doesn't correlate what the mass that is willing to pay or to sleep only 2 hours to watch a tournament think. You're condescending view about people enjoying a crowd and watching their favorite players really shows how much you understand people from your high horse. I'm sorry but who are you to decide what is a real SC2 fan ? The minority you are in doesn't represent SC2 fans whatsoever.
Don't make arguments with segments of quotes. I have no idea what he said before or after each of those part quotes. Also, he said he doesn't like it when people say one tournament IS better, not when people say which ones they prefer.
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On April 24 2012 17:19 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 16:59 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 16:53 Kreb wrote:
If Im caring more about my own national (possibly rather scrappy) football league than La Liga in Spain, even though the quality is much lower, am I not a fan of football then? Maybe Im just a fan of bulgarians/swedes/belgians/americans/you name it?
Umm.. yeah. That is what I mean. I expect to get flamed by tons of sports fans, but its the same thing as the hordes of football 'fans' in the United States who go batshit crazy at the games and don't even understand the rules. They just like drinking beer and being part of a spectacle. It's all about being part of a tribe and rooting for it. It feels good. But they can't be considered fans of the game, because they don't even understand what is going on half of the time. The players could be playing baseball instead of football and half the crowd wouldn't even notice. Many people like sports for the social and psychological aspect, and that's it. Fan is such an overused word nowadays. A football fan is someone who studies the game, who would watch it even if nobody else was and could share the experience with nobody. The game is separate from the pomp and circumstance. No it isn't, it just isn't. Between the 2 extremes you describe there is a LAAAARGE grey zone, how do you call this people if not Fans? Everyone calls them Fans, they are Fans, no matter if you think thats right or not.
Well, nony didn't say they weren't fans, he said they weren't really fans of the game, rather, of the scene based around the game.
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ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama.
And MSL, way to go back on what you said earlier. You explained yourself that there are fans of the game and fans of the sport/scene/whatever. Nony just said that he is a fan of the former and that the majority are not fans of the former but are instead fans of the latter. He's not saying they aren't 'fans' in the general sense, only that they are fans of something different but intimately related.
I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore because I thought the nonsense was over, but I underestimated TL once again.
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On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:
ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama.
Jesus, again you oversimply and make it your own way.
It's about Starcraf vs Starcraft + drama.
It's not like DH had bronze players, but it had A LOT MORE beside just good games. MLG having AWESOME games doesn't top that if you take in consideration the tournaments as a hole. Nony just hanged on one aspect that interested him the most as a progamer.
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On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:
ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama. .
Important to what? Just because it is more important to you (or Nony) doesn't mean it actually is. That was the whole point
On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:And MSL, way to go back on what you said earlier. You explained yourself that there are fans of the game and fans of the sport/scene/whatever. Nony just said that he is a fan of the former and that the majority are not fans of the former but are instead fans of the latter. He's not saying they aren't 'fans' in the general sense, only that they are fans of something different but intimately related.
If you read carefully you will see that I said imlied. Which he did by calling himself part of a minority, that are fans of SC2, thereby impliying that others that do not share his preferences are not.
SC2 =! the game
SC2 is the game, the drama, the tourneys, all of it
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On April 24 2012 21:58 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:
ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama.
Jesus, again you oversimply and make it your own way. It's about Starcraf vs Starcraft + drama. It's not like DH had bronze players, but it had A LOT MORE beside just good games. MLG having AWESOME games doesn't top that if you take in consideration the tournaments as a hole. Nony just hanged on one aspect that interested him the most as a progamer.
Yeah, and its his opinion that he expressed. Why are you getting upset?
And MLG having awesome games MIGHT top that depending on how the individual weighs the relative importance of game quality and drama. If you feel that game quality is 95%, then MLG is probably better. If you feel that game quality is 75% and you have lower expectations, Dreamhack might be better.
And it's not only pro gamers that are interested in high level play. They probably are the most because they can appreciate it more, but its not like your average starcraft noob can't tell the difference between MKP and Thorzain.
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On April 24 2012 22:00 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:
ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama. . Important to what? Just because it is more important to you (or Nony) doesn't mean it actually is. That was the whole point Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:And MSL, way to go back on what you said earlier. You explained yourself that there are fans of the game and fans of the sport/scene/whatever. Nony just said that he is a fan of the former and that the majority are not fans of the former but are instead fans of the latter. He's not saying they aren't 'fans' in the general sense, only that they are fans of something different but intimately related. If you read carefully you will see that I said imlied. Which he did by calling himself part of a minority, that are fans of SC2, thereby impliying that others that do not share his preferences are not. SC2 =! the game SC2 is the game, the drama, the tourneys, all of it
You don't know what he meant by SC2. Although, you should, because he explains it in his post. He says that storyline, music, production etc, isn't SC2. Therefore, he is talking about the game.
Argue with ideas, not words. People that nitpick someones wording or phrase are intellectually dishonest. Are you intellectually dishonest? Or are you going to attempt to understand his intent, rather than feed your initial reaction?
By the way, Nony expressed what is important to him, and a minority of viewers. What is important and what isn't is subjective, obviously. Taste is subjective, values are subjective, this isn't groundbreaking. He's not claiming some objective truth, he is expressing his feelings and explaining his preference. He also explains his distaste of your preference, but that was in response to people flaming him so he was obviously upset.
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Arguing in this thread is like competing in the ______ ______, because even if you win you're still _______.
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On April 24 2012 22:10 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 22:00 msl wrote:On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:
ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama. . Important to what? Just because it is more important to you (or Nony) doesn't mean it actually is. That was the whole point On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:And MSL, way to go back on what you said earlier. You explained yourself that there are fans of the game and fans of the sport/scene/whatever. Nony just said that he is a fan of the former and that the majority are not fans of the former but are instead fans of the latter. He's not saying they aren't 'fans' in the general sense, only that they are fans of something different but intimately related. If you read carefully you will see that I said imlied. Which he did by calling himself part of a minority, that are fans of SC2, thereby impliying that others that do not share his preferences are not. SC2 =! the game SC2 is the game, the drama, the tourneys, all of it You don't know what he meant by SC2. Although, you should, because he explains it in his post. He says that storyline, music, production etc, isn't SC2. Therefore, he is talking about the game. Argue with ideas, not words. People that nitpick someones wording or phrase are intellectually dishonest. Are you intellectually dishonest? Or are you going to attempt to understand his intent, rather than feed your initial reaction? By the way, Nony expressed what is important to him, and a minority of viewers. What is important and what isn't is subjective, obviously. Taste is subjective, values are subjective, this isn't groundbreaking. He's not claiming some objective truth, he is expressing his feelings and explaining his preference. He also explains his distaste of your preference, but that was in response to people flaming him so he was obviously upset.
I am sorry for arguing with words, I will now send my Ideas via mindlink...
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On April 24 2012 23:08 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 22:10 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 22:00 msl wrote:On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:
ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama. . Important to what? Just because it is more important to you (or Nony) doesn't mean it actually is. That was the whole point On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:And MSL, way to go back on what you said earlier. You explained yourself that there are fans of the game and fans of the sport/scene/whatever. Nony just said that he is a fan of the former and that the majority are not fans of the former but are instead fans of the latter. He's not saying they aren't 'fans' in the general sense, only that they are fans of something different but intimately related. If you read carefully you will see that I said imlied. Which he did by calling himself part of a minority, that are fans of SC2, thereby impliying that others that do not share his preferences are not. SC2 =! the game SC2 is the game, the drama, the tourneys, all of it You don't know what he meant by SC2. Although, you should, because he explains it in his post. He says that storyline, music, production etc, isn't SC2. Therefore, he is talking about the game. Argue with ideas, not words. People that nitpick someones wording or phrase are intellectually dishonest. Are you intellectually dishonest? Or are you going to attempt to understand his intent, rather than feed your initial reaction? By the way, Nony expressed what is important to him, and a minority of viewers. What is important and what isn't is subjective, obviously. Taste is subjective, values are subjective, this isn't groundbreaking. He's not claiming some objective truth, he is expressing his feelings and explaining his preference. He also explains his distaste of your preference, but that was in response to people flaming him so he was obviously upset. I am sorry for arguing with words, I will now send my Ideas via mindlink...
Leave the guy, he will defend the idea for ever just because someone said it.
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On April 24 2012 23:08 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 22:10 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 22:00 msl wrote:On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:
ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama. . Important to what? Just because it is more important to you (or Nony) doesn't mean it actually is. That was the whole point On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:And MSL, way to go back on what you said earlier. You explained yourself that there are fans of the game and fans of the sport/scene/whatever. Nony just said that he is a fan of the former and that the majority are not fans of the former but are instead fans of the latter. He's not saying they aren't 'fans' in the general sense, only that they are fans of something different but intimately related. If you read carefully you will see that I said imlied. Which he did by calling himself part of a minority, that are fans of SC2, thereby impliying that others that do not share his preferences are not. SC2 =! the game SC2 is the game, the drama, the tourneys, all of it You don't know what he meant by SC2. Although, you should, because he explains it in his post. He says that storyline, music, production etc, isn't SC2. Therefore, he is talking about the game. Argue with ideas, not words. People that nitpick someones wording or phrase are intellectually dishonest. Are you intellectually dishonest? Or are you going to attempt to understand his intent, rather than feed your initial reaction? By the way, Nony expressed what is important to him, and a minority of viewers. What is important and what isn't is subjective, obviously. Taste is subjective, values are subjective, this isn't groundbreaking. He's not claiming some objective truth, he is expressing his feelings and explaining his preference. He also explains his distaste of your preference, but that was in response to people flaming him so he was obviously upset. I am sorry for arguing with words, I will now send my Ideas via mindlink...
Brilliant, take the easy way out with humor instead of engaging the substance of my post. So much for your 'reasoned discourse'.
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On April 24 2012 23:19 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 23:08 msl wrote:On April 24 2012 22:10 zefreak wrote:On April 24 2012 22:00 msl wrote:On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:
ITT the proletariat gets upset because someone expressed his opinion that starcraft the game is more important than starcraft the drama. . Important to what? Just because it is more important to you (or Nony) doesn't mean it actually is. That was the whole point On April 24 2012 21:49 zefreak wrote:And MSL, way to go back on what you said earlier. You explained yourself that there are fans of the game and fans of the sport/scene/whatever. Nony just said that he is a fan of the former and that the majority are not fans of the former but are instead fans of the latter. He's not saying they aren't 'fans' in the general sense, only that they are fans of something different but intimately related. If you read carefully you will see that I said imlied. Which he did by calling himself part of a minority, that are fans of SC2, thereby impliying that others that do not share his preferences are not. SC2 =! the game SC2 is the game, the drama, the tourneys, all of it You don't know what he meant by SC2. Although, you should, because he explains it in his post. He says that storyline, music, production etc, isn't SC2. Therefore, he is talking about the game. Argue with ideas, not words. People that nitpick someones wording or phrase are intellectually dishonest. Are you intellectually dishonest? Or are you going to attempt to understand his intent, rather than feed your initial reaction? By the way, Nony expressed what is important to him, and a minority of viewers. What is important and what isn't is subjective, obviously. Taste is subjective, values are subjective, this isn't groundbreaking. He's not claiming some objective truth, he is expressing his feelings and explaining his preference. He also explains his distaste of your preference, but that was in response to people flaming him so he was obviously upset. I am sorry for arguing with words, I will now send my Ideas via mindlink... Brilliant, take the easy way out with humor instead of engaging the substance of my post. So much for your 'reasoned discourse'.
Actually, I was in the train, typing on an iPad which tried to autocorrect to German...
So here it goes: What are we talking about? I will try to clarify what I meant earlier:
Starcraft 2 in the way that the term is used encompasses the game itself, the Esports aspect, the tournament scene, the community (like on this site).
A fan of Starcraft 2 may like it for any reason above, any combination thereof or other reasons I am not thinking of. The reason for their entusiasm has no bearing on wether or not they are a fan or how big/good/other term of quality fan they are.
Nony implicitly said (in my understanding) that people who are not fans of pure gameplay are not fans of SC2.
Nony as a progamer is something akin to a public figure, most of all here on TL. He either phrased what he meant very badly and should clarify, which to my mind he didn't, but rather reiterated his views in ever more convuluted ways. If by SC2 he meant gameplay only, fair enough, just bad phrasing. My impression however is that he really thinks that people who enjoy other aspects of SC2 then pure gameplay are somehow "lesser" fans (or no fans at all).
I also would like it if we could discuss the questions "What did Nony really mean?" and " fans Esports =! fans gameplay but both are fans of SC2 without cause for one group to deride the other" because I got the distinct impression that we actually agreed on the later.
Edit: btw I really do like reasoned discourse, but I get the feeling you are very close to leaving it. I am not attacking you or your passion for the game, I am merly pointing out why people would be upset at Nonys (implied) view.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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On April 24 2012 23:59 msl wrote:
If by SC2 he meant gameplay only, fair enough, just bad phrasing.
"the producer makes a joke on the overlay, a song that you like is played at a good moment, the winning player has an extremely emotional reaction. Not SC2. But they make a ton of people like watching an SC2 tournament more."
"I've just observed that if you have a lot of white people in your tournament (foreign pride/underdog storyline) and you have a lot of people clapping and cheering on the stream (crowd, environment), then that makes a lot of people in the community very happy. Of course, these things are not SC2." (bold parts added by me)
These quotes should make it obvious that he is talking about the gameplay only. He basically says that crowds and underdog storylines are not SC2. Therefore he must be referring to something else when he mentions being a fan of SC2. There really isn't much left other than the gameplay..
So I guess it was just bad phrasing (although I rather liked it).
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On April 25 2012 00:14 iNcontroL wrote:
holy crap guys..
Hey this is serious shit, Tyler needs to defend his honor or people will lose respect.
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Haha this is ridiculous lol
tyler's little statement has sparked such a debate.
just goes to show that this community will argue anything
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This thread has become a shitstorm. Its quite entertaining. Proceed...
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It's good that people care but sometimes they care way too much.
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On April 24 2012 22:12 Doodsmack wrote:
Arguing in this thread is like competing in the ______ ______, because even if you win you're still _______. Boston Marathon? Exhausted?
Please calm down people, you're acting crazy.
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What are you guys doing in our personal debate thread?
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EPT
